Where to Draw the Line?

[mdb4879]

So I've been thinking about what I want out of my CA and thought I had my goal set at about 270-300bhp until I found out about the HKS EVC6 and realized I can limit boost in lower gears to help maintain traction so now I'm unsure as to where to set my goal. I understand 300bhp is A LOT of power already, but then I got to talking with some friends just goofing off and thought "Wouldn't it be great if I could walk a Z06?" I did some looking around and some thinking and I figure it'll take about 320whp to hang with a Z06, give or take some as I'm not too sure how different the real world is when my really short gearing added in. My motor will be in a FWD Pulsar, so I can only imagine boost_boy will have the most experience with my FWD specific questions. I figure the car with full interior should weigh about 2500lbs, and another 100lbs if I can retain p/s and a/c. As a guess, I think 320whp should be around 365bhp with a FWD drivetrain? I actually didn't consider that much power until I added up the price for my parts list and saw it shouldn't cost too much more to go from X-hp to Y-hp because it'd just be a matter of getting "bigger" parts, not more parts. And if I'm going to spend much money as I alotted I'd like to pull on a Z06. Price isn't really an issue. If it's necessary to make it reliable I'll spend the money on it. I just want to be sure I'm happy with the goal I set and I want to set a goal that's reasonable to achieve.

So anyways, I guess I'll start with asking about the drivetrain limitations. The car will be a 1988 Nissan Pulsar NX SE. How much power and abuse can the stock drivetrain handle? Yes, it is a broad question and depends on many factors, but a rough guess would be nice. I think I've heard the transmission is good for 350whp, then the differential will start seeing troubles, but I have no first hand experience with it and can't really even remember where I heard that. I would like to be able to take the car to the drag strip and run on drag radials and not be breaking stuff left and right. Idk how much I'll actually take it to the strip, as it will mostly be a street driven car, but I would still like to be able to do it. If axles are the problem then I could have axles made for it, but if it's a transmission issue then I don't think I'd be wanting deal with bulking that up, and since they're rather hard to come by I don't want to break it either. I'm not really much of one to abuse my stuff, like dumping clutches and powershifting, but I would like to know the capability is there.

I guess my next limitation is the turbo. I don't have any experience with it, but I would guess that due to space constraints I'm limited to a T28 at the largest. So how much power can I actually get from a T28? In the FAQ float says about 270whp is the limit, so I would just like some confirmation. I made up this equation to guess what boost will make what power on a stock motor: 175/6400*6800/21.7*absolute pressure. 6400rpm is suppose to be where the CA makes peak hp, but I think thats just because the stock turbo won't flow any more air past that so I guessed 6800rpm is where the cams run out of steam. Dependant on trim, a GT2871r is able to (idk what a good limit actually is to stay efficient) flow enough air for roughly 450hp. Based on pressure ratio I figured one would be good for 330hp on a CA at 24psi, and that's assuming my intake flows very well to keep the pressure ratio down. That sounds about right to float's word, but then I recalled Dee saying he's made 423whp at 26psi on a stock bottom end and stock head (no porting and no cams). I think he may have said he had ARP rod bolts, head studs, and an MLS head gasket, but otherwise stock. I know nothing of what bolt-ons he had, though. So where about is the power limit on a basically stock CA? And what limit can be expected from the stock cast exhaust manifold? I would prefer to keep the stock manifold, but if a tubular will be very beneficial and applicable with my space constraints then I may go that route.

Also, idk what happens to driveability with bigger turbos (obviously more lag at low rpms), but do larger turbos somehow have trouble making low boost? I'll need low boost in the lower gears to hook up, but if a larger turbo will prevent me from making less power then I'll stick with a smaller one with less peak power. I can live with crazy wheel spin in first and maybe a bit in second, but I would like for second to be basically under control and third up to not break loose from power alone (remember, boost will be limited in lower gears to help achieve this).

I was hoping to stay with a stock bottom end as it seems with minor upgrades such as ARP rod bolts it can handle a tremendous amount of power, but I may be willing to upgrade. If my block needs boring I'll go with forged pistons and I may as well get ARP rod bolts as a precaution. I'm not too sure if I want to go as far as head studs, though it isn't too expensive so I may as well. s13drifter88 explained to me about MLS head gaskets and their stringent requirements, so I'm unsure if I want to do that.

I know this post is rather long already so I guess I'll stop there. I have a few more thoughts, but the answers to what I've already stated may nullify my need to post more questions. Sorry if it seems I'm rambling on, I just want to show why I have mixed feelings about where to set my goal and what I'm basing it off of. Thanks in advance for any input provided.

[float_6969]

First off, I think your Z06 goal might be a bit lofty for your chassis. Based purely on power to weight ratio, you're looking at 400-450hp. That's A LOT of power to put down in any chassis, but FWD makes it a lot worse. That's not taking torque into consideration. Have you seen a dyno plot of a Z06? It doesn't have a torque curve, it has a torque line, and I'm not exaggerating all that much. This means that even if you had the right power to weight, the drive train to support it, and could somehow fit tires that would put all that power down (GM use a 325mm width tire in the rear of the Z06, can you even fit a 275 in the front of a Pulsar?), you'd still loose. He would have you by 2 or 3 car lengths before you even got into boost. Then once you did, you'd only be as fast as he is. So now you need to make MORE power to compensate for your lack of torque. So now you're more like 500hp.

AFAIK, there are NO, 500hp FWD, STREETABLE vehicles in the world.

270-300hp is pretty easily attainable in a Pulsar, will be plenty fast to put a grin on your face, and will spank most of the cars on the road. The Z06 is a Supercar. Would you try to build a Pulsar that's as fast a a Ferrari F430? Because that's basically what you're asking how to do.

[boost_boy]

Big man post "MDB". You're power hungry and I like that. I see you've done some soul searching, money laundering and have set your sets on the Z06 and that shows me you have pretty big eyes. First of all, float is right that you will catch hell trying to out-launch a Z06, but if you're ballsy enough, you can make that Z06 read your license plates at over 140mph. But all this comes with some key notes: What kind of money you're willing to spend and what kind of money are you willing to spend. To outright turn your pulsar SE into something wicked with no compromise and on an internally stock CA18DET, you are talking in the ball park of around $3500 for that instant 300+whp you seek. And with that hp, you will be able to give a Z06 hell; at least back in the day I clowned Z06s on the mid and top end and toyed with the C5s. I thought I was the superior being here in Miami until I kissed a pole with my B12 sentra and I would then be humbled. If you want to talk more about these desires, pm me or you can keep your business on the CA forum. I can help, but it will take time, patience and money.

[mdb4879]

I guess I ought to go more in depth as to the purpose for this car. It will mostly be street driven, but by no means a daily driver. This will purely be a toy to take out for fun whenever I'm in the mood, and to the drag strip (and maybe auto-x, I've never actually been to an auto-x so idk how I'd be at it, and I especially don't know how a 300+ whp FWD car would do on such a tight track) whenever I have time.

When I said pull a Z06, I didn't necessarily mean from a dig, although if I could then all the better. I was thinking from about 70mph to my limiter. At the very least stay even with it, as that would be an amazing feat in and of itself. I don't think I could fit anything wider than a 205 under the front, but that may change with coilovers. But as this won't be a DD I plan to only take it out on dry sunny days and have no problem running some Nitto NT-01s or Hankook Ventus R-S3s. Even so, I don't expect to get a Z06 at the launch unless it's at the track and he has some hard economy tires for some reason. As my CA sits now, in a 1987 Pulsar, gutted out completely (not even a dash, heater, blower motor, anything), weighing 2300lbs and one-wheel-drive, it's light enough that even spinning tires it pulls hard enough to stay dead even with a G35 Coupe up to about 100mph. 200lbs is a lot of weight (I can easily feel a great difference with a 160lbs passenger), but I'd like to know how much of a difference having the VLSD would make. My Pulsar is also REALLY low geared. 4.47 final drive and in fifth at 75mph I'm sitting at close to 4k rpm. I think the VLSD transmission drops this down to about 3500 rpm, but my top end will still suffer.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as an estimate drivetrain loss is about 10% for FWD and 17% for RWD. I figured at 2500lbs about 330whp should stay even with a Z06. Now in a 240, 400bhp may be needed to achieve this, but in FWD about 365bhp is needed. I do understand fully that torque is king in drag racing, which on the street is mostly all you'll do anyways unless your stupid. So idk how much of a difference that will make when comparing power to weight ratios.

AFAIK, there are NO, 500hp FWD, STREETABLE vehicles in the world.

You may not know who he is, since he's a local around here in Huntsville, but Matt Tucker has an EK Civic Type R that at one point put down 622whp and was daily driven for a year before a rod went and he did a K swap. Idk how "streetable" it really was and I actually have no intention to match that. In any form, but especially FWD, if I would have trouble hooking up in fifth gear with say 500hp, then what's the point in going further. Not really trying to argue with you, float, about your point on that. His car just came to mind when you made that statement. It's been in a couple articles I believe. If you google "Matt Tucker CTR" I'm sure you'll find it. It's an amazing machine. I bet he gets tired of everyone drooling over it, lol.

Would you try to build a Pulsar that's as fast a a Ferrari F430?

...Yes... lol, jk. I'm not really much to try to out do anyone or anything, I build what I want for my own gratification. I'd just like to have the Z06 thing as a good comparison. Plus if I ever do run one, it'd be great to put it to shame. Which, in a Pulsar, just keeping up would do that. But if possible, spanking it would be the best of all.

If you want to talk more about these desires, pm me

I have permission to PM the almighty Dee??? I AM NOT WORTHYYYY

To outright turn your pulsar SE into something wicked with no compromise and on an internally stock CA18DET, you are talking in the ball park of around $3500

That cheap?! lol, jk. I'll try not to state how much I'm planning on spending so I don't sound like some show-off or some ricer who thinks power is cheap (not going to say which it is). I'll PM you Dee and let you know what I have planned so far.

Thanks for your responses. And thanks for the confidence boost, Dee.

The not so personal stuff I'll put here in the forum for everyone's benefit. So back to the Q's.

Is there a definitive answer as to where the stock cams make max power with a turbo that will flow air that high? I was talking to a guy on here who said it was right at or just under 7k.

Just how much power can be had from the stock exhaust manifold? Using the power range from above I've figured a GT2871R can make as much as 350bhp at 26psi on a good day. Does that sound about right or would the manifold restrict this?

With cams, how much power can be made on a T28? Don't ask me what spec cams, for I have no experience with them. So just assume the best balance.

It may depend on the condition of the stock valvetrain, but at what point would it need to be upgraded so the valves don't float within a generous margin after the powerband (for reliability purposes)? Like what size cams? Not trying to make power by revving like crazy, but at some point the stock cams just won't cut it.

[boost_boy]

The starting point is a good valve train. You can actually use the stock camshafts to the 400whp range. A properly built engine iin stock form can physically withstand 500whp, but why play with fire (it's more like a coin toss). If you're trying to save a buck or two, you'll need to find the AWD CA18DET manifold or you may have to go with something custom or be forced to massage a RWD manifold. Engine management is the ticket for making all of this happen and I can't stress it enough. I'm not perfectly certain of the drive train losses, but I do believe FWD is 20%. And as for the cams, I won't worry about them just yet . But if you must go with aftermarket bump sticks, the Tomei 268s with 8 point whatever millimeter lift is good enough.

[mdb4879]

So basically make sure the valvetrain is up to the task and the cams will perform? Sounds easy enough. I just wasn't sure the stock cams were THAT capable. So would say a GT2871R 52 trim flow to it's potential? Or is more boost needed to force the air in and a T3 of some sort is required?

A properly built engine iin stock form can physically withstand 500whp, but why play with fire (it's more like a coin toss).

Yeah, if I were to shoot for that much power I definitely wouldn't be trying to push the envelope on a stock motor. Especially if I had the cash for just the bolt-ons to make that power.

I'm thinking I'll use a RWD manifold since that's what it already has. The one thing I don't know for certain is how the TB is on the opposite end. Is the upper plenum reversible or can the TB be mounted on either end? Either way, it works.



Sorry for the crappy phone pic. I took that back when I first got the motor in the car and running. Since then I loomed the wiring a bit and the rubber intake hose with the filter and MAF have made a 180 and now sit inside the fender. I haven't done anything to the car since.

I don't really know too much about the swap. A former fellow Pulsar owner here in Huntsville did the swap and wiring and everything. When the storms came through last April his car got totalled and I bought it from him for $1000. The ECU was fried, but once I got one it started right up, no trouble at all to my amazement. Luckily just as I got the ecu I got three days in a row free from work so I took that time to pull the CA16DE that was in my 1987 Pulsar, pull the DET out (wiring and all) and stuff it in my chassis.

Engine management is the ticket for making all of this happen and I can't stress it enough.

Thanks for driving that in one last time. With as much as I've read you tell others this I just wasn't sure it applied to me, lol jk. But seriously, I think I'm going to go with Nistune. It seems like it should be plenty capable. A step or two above SAFC

I'm not sure of drivetrain losses either. That's just what I seem to remember from a long time ago. But I can only imagine RWD would have more because of the extra mass from the driveline and possibly larger transmission, right. Except maybe when the wheels are turned and the CVs are at an angle on a FWD.

[float_6969]

Ahh, I assumed from a stop. From a roll makes for a completely different setup. From a roll, a turbo is far better suited for racing then NA, and will reduce your power requirements. I also figured the car at 2500lbs instead of 2300, which drops the numbers down a bit. Dee knows his FWD CA's, and if he says 350-375 will do it, then it will do it.

[mdb4879]

Sorry, float. I must be getting confusing. My Pulsar right now weighs 2300, and I was using that as an example to state that even with an open diff it pulls pretty good with wheel spin, and I was curious what it'd pull like weighing 200 more but with a VLSD. I'm tired of the gutted car, though. So I'm expecting a little over 2500 with full interior.

I think I have a game plan now. Not really sure what power I'm looking at for certain, but I'm thinking of a GT2871R with some cams and a not entirely stock bottom-end and valvetrain and I should be over the 320whp mark with room to spare.

Thanks guys.

[Liquid_Neon]

As a fellow pulsar ca18det owner, i must say i am all for this! give them vettes hell!
This is a crappy video i took a few nights ago actually, open downpipe!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP5TJ6V8 ... AAAAAAAAAA

[srt4monster]

i have raced c6 zo6's from 30-70 rolls out to 170+ in my neon on MT streets. my neon made 515whp and weighs 3400 with me in it. i was always 2-3 cars ahead of them around 130-140 then from there i kept pulling. the zo6 also had exhaust and tune. so 400-435whp should pull on a stock one ever so slightly if you weigh around 2500 pounds and can hook. z06 really do not make that much power but there aerodynamics and gears make them super fast. good luck dude.

[mdb4879]

Thanks. I'm thinking I'll hit the 320whp mark with ease (not on the wallet, though). Even if that doesn't stay even with a C6 Z06, it'll still be one hell of a ride. Now it's just a matter of time, and a lot of it at that.

[srt4monster]

my ca in my ae86 is around 330whp. it likes to beat bolted ls1's lol