Where are those Republicans who love the troops now?

[heliochrome85]

http://www.slate.com/id/2266404/

So let me get this straight, John McCain who has never missed an opportunity to wrap himself in the flag and remind the world that he has military credentials, is somehow silent on the threat this 50 member congration poses if they actual go through with their plans to publically burn Korans on 9/11, this despite Gen. Petreus saying that it would significantly endanger our efforts in Afghanistan, Iraq, and further enflame Iran against us. So much for moral character. Whats unfortunate is taht this is a real threat to the troops, rather than the made up ones that Fox trotts out every day, and youd be hard pressed to find any mention of it on their webpage. Who is drinking the Kool-Aid now?

also nothing like commemorating the attacks that were because of religious fanatacism, by displaying our own brand of religions fanatacism. since it seems like a good portion of the country has no issue with this act, the question becomes, how long until someone who was raised with this sort of moral carte blanche, decides to kick it up a notch, and say, blow up a mosque? I have no doubt that the equivalence of such an act to 9/11 would be lost on the millions of Americans who have no issue with the increasing hostility in this country towards islam. I seem to recall the same arguments surrounding 9/11 being said in the MIddle east, as was said about the threat of a mosque being built near Ground Zero. "If its destroyed, its because of their own efforts." Its been said here, and has been said in the press. Funny how we never are able to recognize the hypocracy in our own ranks.

[vikesfankevin1986]

Ugh I'm going to have to go to war again...probably against countries that used to be our alies...good job America...this is what your elected officials do for you.

[IBCoupe]

Well, Tariq, I think we should worry about blown up mosques if and when they come our way. No need to work ourselves up unnecessarily.

Geez, if Americans, including politicians and pundits, are so keen on saying, "Yeah, they have a right to do it, but it would be better if they didn't" to Muslims on Manhattan (sounds like a movie...), I wonder if we can't muster up the will to say it to Preachers on the Panhandle? (I'm getting good at this...)

I suppose it's distinguishable, though - the Park51 center might inspire violence against the people who support it, whereas the Koran burning would only inspire violence against people halfway around the world.

[audtatious]

http://www.slate.com/id/2266404/

So let me get this straight, John McCain who has never missed an opportunity to wrap himself in the flag and remind the world that he has military credentials, is somehow silent on the threat this 50 member congration poses if they actual go through with their plans to publically burn Korans on 9/11, this despite Gen. Petreus saying that it would significantly endanger our efforts in Afghanistan, Iraq, and further enflame Iran against us. So much for moral character. Whats unfortunate is taht this is a real threat to the troops, rather than the made up ones that Fox trotts out every day, and youd be hard pressed to find any mention of it on their webpage. Who is drinking the Kool-Aid now?

also nothing like commemorating the attacks that were because of religious fanatacism, by displaying our own brand of religions fanatacism. since it seems like a good portion of the country has no issue with this act, the question becomes, how long until someone who was raised with this sort of moral carte blanche, decides to kick it up a notch, and say, blow up a mosque? I have no doubt that the equivalence of such an act to 9/11 would be lost on the millions of Americans who have no issue with the increasing hostility in this country towards islam. I seem to recall the same arguments surrounding 9/11 being said in the MIddle east, as was said about the threat of a mosque being built near Ground Zero. "If its destroyed, its because of their own efforts." Its been said here, and has been said in the press. Funny how we never are able to recognize the hypocracy in our own ranks.

So, what should we do about it?

[themadscientist]

I have an "issue with it," yes. It's tasteless and inflammatory.

If he gets a permit to do it and follows all applicable laws, however, he can still do it. You don't have to like it and I would wonder about you if you were applauding his actions, but if he operates within the law being an ***hole is his Constitutional right.

I think the Ground zero mosque thing is a purposeful slap in the face too. As I stated rather longwindedly many times in that thread, though, if that ***hole follows the laws, he can do what he wants too.

There are Muslims around the world burning the American flag and calling for the death of our President at the mere suggestion; do we really want to start getting on a high horse? I understand that Muslims hold their holy book in high regard. I respect that. I respect the reverence Jews have for their holy texts and the Christians theirs, etc etc. The key is I CHOOSE to respect that. I am not bound by any law preventing me from buying one and burning it. They are legally bound not to try to kill me over it. There is a difference. If Muslims want to be taken seriously in a world of different ideas they need to tell the whackos killing people over a f*** book that they don't get to do that because they are offended.

This guy in Florida is a whacko, but up to this point he is not illegally whacked out. That D-bag that cut the Muslim cab driver, criminal whacko, put him away. Send him to Gitmo, that would be fun.

It's time the troops come home completely and permanently.

[IBCoupe]

Just a bit of macabre humor:

"Un-hand them, villain!"

"Let her go, Joker!"

"It's time the troops come home completely and permanently."

All phrases whose words could be chosen more carefully.

[audtatious]

Which is the whole point of "what should we do about it". If what they are doing is their "right" to do so then there's not much we can do about it. Look at the Westboro Baptist Church idiots and what they get away with. While I would love them NOT to do it I at least respect their right under US law to do it. If others in another country don't like it they can petition to try and change our laws or STFU about it.

[IBCoupe]

The most you can do is do what Petraeus has done - point out that there will be consequences. Rights are usually treated as black and white, but we don't often pay as much attention as to the consequences related to those rights.

Often I write that we should understand America's role in the motivations leading up to the 9/11 attacks. I write this not because I want to blame America for what happened, or because I think we ought to change our behavior out of fear. I argue this point because we benefit from understanding that our actions have consequences, and that what is inevitably right does not come without costs.

Is it wrong for this man to preach hate? I say so. Is it more wrong for us to prevent him from doing so? I say so. Is it unfortunate that more soldiers may die in response to this? Yes. Is it his fault? Not in large part. Could he avoid it? Maybe. With all this in mind, is it still more wrong for us to prevent him from preaching hate? Yes.

But if we stop after the first two questions, we're doing ourselves and the rest of the world a disservice. We shouldn't ever be surprised by what people do.

[audtatious]

That would be the hard part of the "cost of freedom".

Here is a movie quote from "American President" that comes to mind often in these circumstances:

President Andrew Shepherd: "America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've got to want it bad, because it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil who is standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the 'land of the free'? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the 'land of the free.'"

[IBCoupe]

I agree.

Great quote, and I really need to see that movie. I love Sorkin's writing in The West Wing, but I've just never had the opportunity to watch that film.

[themadscientist]

"It's time the troops come home completely and permanently."

All phrases whose words could be chosen more carefully.

So you want them to stay there?

[IBCoupe]

You missed the point. One way for them to "come home and stay home permanently" is in flag-draped coffins.

This guy approves:

[themadscientist]

I really don't laugh at dead soldier humor. I see the faces of these kids every day as they ship out to the sandbox, it's real to me.
Enough of this crap, bring them home, do it now. America will do a lot better for itself when it gets out of the nationbuilding hobby. we suck at it.
It's a shame that we hold an arguable amount of responsibility for the condition of the middle east, but I would suggest we worsen it by being there in a military capacity.

[szh]

It's a shame that we hold an arguable amount of responsibility for the condition of the middle east, but I would suggest we worsen it by being there in a military capacity.

Indeed! Both the points you make here are valid and important.

Z

[IBCoupe]

I'll laugh at (or, at least recognize that there's humor to be found in) just about anything, so that's where you and I differ.

But as for the rest of your post, that was the only way you and I differed. Being there in a military capacity not only worsens the conditions, it was arguably part of the motivating cause behind those who created the problem in the first place.

[heliochrome85]

oh, dont get me wrong. i have no issue personally with him burning the Quran. Its his right to protest in this way and so my being offended should have no power to stop him. That being said, my main issue is that you have many many faux-patriots who use the military to whip up their self rightous constitutents, but when there is something that directly threatens the troops they stay silent. Obama not wearing a flag pin? MAJOR OUTRAGE. Lunatic fringe religious pastor burning Qurans causeing international condemnation? Nothing. My point is that if the GOP wants to use the "We love the troops more than the liberals" line, they probably should do something more than just say it to substantiate their claim. But that would be asking too much from a man like John McCain.

[themadscientist]

The Republican, much like the Democrats will do ANYTHING to get and keep power. I put nothing past them.

[heliochrome85]

Well, Tariq, I think we should worry about blown up mosques if and when they come our way. No need to work ourselves up unnecessarily.

Geez, if Americans, including politicians and pundits, are so keen on saying, "Yeah, they have a right to do it, but it would be better if they didn't" to Muslims on Manhattan (sounds like a movie...), I wonder if we can't muster up the will to say it to Preachers on the Panhandle? (I'm getting good at this...)

I suppose it's distinguishable, though - the Park51 center might inspire violence against the people who support it, whereas the Koran burning would only inspire violence against people halfway around the world.

i only used the Mosque example as a way to show how the actions of this guy, and the complancency of the general populace leads to people taking things too far. If you had the major Conservative leaders coming out and STRONGLY opposing this inflammatory hate speech, that would go along way to quieting down the xenophobia. with their silence comes acceptance. They are using Islam as a way to get votes, but it wont be them who are most threatened when their chickens come home to roost.

[audtatious]

oh, dont get me wrong. i have no issue personally with him burning the Quran. Its his right to protest in this way and so my being offended should have no power to stop him. That being said, my main issue is that you have many many faux-patriots who use the military to whip up their self rightous constitutents, but when there is something that directly threatens the troops they stay silent. Obama not wearing a flag pin? MAJOR OUTRAGE. Lunatic fringe religious pastor burning Qurans causeing international condemnation? Nothing. My point is that if the GOP wants to use the "We love the troops more than the liberals" line, they probably should do something more than just say it to substantiate their claim. But that would be asking too much from a man like John McCain.

It doesn't help when Dems in charge accuse the military of being murderers and such or when the current Commander in Chief won't acknowledge when he was wrong about the surge or any time talk comes up about cutting the budget the first thing that comes out of a Dems mouth is military cuts. It gives credence to the viewpoint in some peoples eyes.

Let's not confuse McCain with a real "Republican". That old fart sways with the wind like most other Republicans that will hopefully be replaced in office soon.

[audtatious]

If you had the major Conservative leaders coming out and STRONGLY opposing this inflammatory hate speech, that would go along way to quieting down the xenophobia. with their silence comes acceptance. They are using Islam as a way to get votes, but it wont be them who are most threatened when their chickens come home to roost.

I'm on the fence here. While I agree they should not be silent I don't necessarily believe silence means acceptance or you would immediately assume they support the stance of the Westboro Church as well, which I'm sure they don't.

[heliochrome85]

there is a difference between accepting that drugs are a problem in the country, and actually promoting the problem.

[audtatious]

So, if someone accepts that drugs are a problem yet says nothing about it they are promoting it? Not sure where you are going with the statement.

Regardless, I think the burnings are stupid just as I think burning the flag is stupid. If people want to get bent out of shape about then that's fine. If those in Iraq are THAT sensitive and decide to shoot our soldiers over it then they should be blasted.