When will my KA blow?

Post by **silviamaniac** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

I hav a 91 KA24de, yes the weak internal ones.

I hav a plan going on right now, Its at installation phase.Below is the setup which is done halfway, but i m curious about the results....

T3/04e 50trim .60comp .63turbine on RH manifold Adj Internal Wastegate with manual boost controllerS-afcMSD 6btm Multispark + Boost Retard Module MSD Blaster2 Coil Q45 MAF255lph Walbro High Pressure Fuel Pump S-AFCApex'i N1 CatbackHKS SSQV BOV SDS EIC Fuel System (4 extra 480cc + EIC Module)Spearco FMICCatco 3"Intake piping will be 2.5" hot 2.25" cold Downpipe Will be 3"

No plan on Ross piston & ring and rod yet. My wallet is thin.

My goal is 250hp/250tq or more at 7psi with proper tuning.

Anyone with suggestion on tuning it? Anyone know how much boost the internal gonna handle with .5 degree retard/lbs of boost?Can i get 250? or more? Cause there are no Dynojet in town besides my University (which is not open to public)Until when it will blow? (stock internals)

Post by **DbD** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

Jan. 23 2004 at 9pm, just as you are racing a fellow 17 yr old

Checkered-Member · Post by **Checkered-Member** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

silviamaniac

You listed S-AFC twice why you need two...hehe:slapHigh Flow Cat not mandatory but recommended.

Manual boost controller:thumbd

Checkered-Member · Post by **Checkered-Member** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

also its 1 degree retard for every pound of boost, I think....

lastly 250 hp at 7 psi, not today not tomorrow without major engine work, at 7 psi you will be lucky to brake 220 wheel hp

Post by **Red Lightning** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

He listed S-AFC twice cause it's the S-AFCII.

Seriously, if you have SDS, you will NOT need S-AFC. If your KA is healthy, it can take 300whp or so. Just remember to use high octane gas. If no one in your area can tune it, maybe you should look into a JWT ECU (plug and play) instead of SDS.

Post by **SingleCamSam** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

7psi from a T04E will give you more than 200hp. Last i checked several people running 8psi are dynoing around 250-260whp. And a manual boost controller is just as good as an electronic one for anything but the most high budget projects. For 250whp i actually think that setup is overkill.

Checkered-Member · Post by **Checkered-Member** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

SingleCamSam wrote:And a manual boost controller is just as good as an electronic one

but the digital has such pretty graphics and colors:pface

250whp at 8 psi Jesus Christ on stock internals?

Post by **fiznat** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

watcha mean "weak internal" KA?

uhmm also Im pretty sure you dont need that MAF, since you're planning on going with the standalone (AND afc? dont really need both...). Uhmm there are other things you need to consider. Think about getting a wideband if you're planning on doing the tuning yourself, dont forget to add in the cost of guages and maybe battery relocation-- uhmm IC piping etc etc. Also you dont need the MSD BTM to retard the spark if you have the SDS Standalone, that system can do the retard for you.

You have a couple things in your setup that do the same thing, you can cut out a bunch of stuff from that list and EASIALLY get 240 hp (which isnt that ambitious a goal for KA-T anyways). Read up on what everyone else has said and post a new list.

Post by **HolyShiznit** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

Checkered-Member wrote:250whp at 8 psi Jesus Christ on stock internals?

No offense, I know you have gotten a really bad rap around here and I was willing to let you live and learn but.......this has made me cringe.

HOW MANY GUYS ON THIS BOARD HAVE YOU SEEN EVERYDAY TALKING AND POSTING THAT HAVE 250+whp on STOCK INTERNALS???

Jesus Christ is right, do you not read? It's NOT that hard, quite a few guys have done 300+whp .....stock internals. Sorry to blow up but man you get under my skin, especially with comments like that. How many stupid threads have been started with people asking "what's the most power I can make on a stock bottom end". EVERYONE replies that there isn't really a height set yet.....the whole KA-T thing is still relatively new. Most are running 220-280ish whp on stock internals. Sheesh.....

*retracts flamethrower*

Post by **fiznat** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

rut ro. he's right though, for example Dennis is running 350+ hp on stock internals at 15psi I beleive. Once again, it is about keeping the proper ratios, not low amounts of boost that keeps an engine running.

Post by **WDRacing** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

Alot of misinformation in this thread, please don't post info unless its atleast partially correct. The stock KA will handle 350 hp with no problems. You just can't be stupid while tuning.

The SDS EIC is a good way to add fuel, no need to get a different maf though, or the SAFC for that matter. The SDS does it all for ya. With your mods you can get well over 270HP and run more then 7 psi.

WD

Post by **silviamaniac** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

Quote »Jan. 23 2004 at 9pm, just as you are racing a fellow 17 yr old[/quote]????

Quote »also its 1 degree retard for every pound of boost, I think....[/quote]Its .75, the safest timing retard on KA. With proper fuel management you can go .5. .... (I heard)

Quote » Seriously, if you have SDS, you will NOT need S-AFC.[/quote]The S-AFC is for MAF and also i do not feel like rerouting the BOV back to the intake piping. And SDS EIC is not Standalone, SDS is a company name btw. Stands for Simple Digital System.

Quote » watcha mean "weak internal" KA?

uhmm also Im pretty sure you dont need that MAF, since you're planning on going with the standalone (AND afc? dont really need both...). [/quote]By saying the weak internal KA24DE. I mean 91-94 KA24DE is the weakest among all the KA24. Although their cam are better, but the weakest point is at the piston and ring. 95 onwards have better piston and ring but the cam is not as good.. WTF is NISSAN DOING????

That is not standalone.. Its a EIC modulePls check here for more info. EIC =EXTRA INJECTOR MODULE !=STANDALONEEIC does not retard at all.http://www.sdsefi.com/eic.htmlThank you.

Just to clear up things, and those item i ALREADY have, and project is already started.. but winter is coming... ****..

As WD mentioned, my purpose of having S-AFC is not fuel management but to tune the MAF + avoid BOV rerouting. The EIC actually give u the flexibility to adjust ur fuel like an FPR (electronic FPR in this case) with treshold and gain, run a vacuum line to tell em the boost you have and it will pump fuel to your manifold as much as you tell them.. Thus if you do not boost at all, you only run stock injectors. With the 480cc extra injector + stock injectors, i should hav a 740cc setup, or close.

I m welding my piping, thus i wanna avoid that nipple that bov reroute back to on the intake piping. plus the s-afc was there long before the turbo project.Listed twice? my bad..

Gauges and stuff does not contribute to power, thus i did not list them. Just want opinion on how this setup will do on the engine. Just pointless to tell ppl you got a LSD and Tanabe Sustec and ask ppl how much HP u will make rite??

I think manual boost controller do the job just right. A electronic boost controller is overly priced and with that money i can get a alot of other stuff like JWT ROM, eManage, etc etc and do alot of funny stuff

Lastly, it sounds like i spent too much on some stuff for a stage 1 setup, but i like to plan for future too. My stage 2 will go internal.

Post by **TrunkMonkey** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

silviamaniac, i suggest you do a little more research before you continue with your project. based on the information you've posted in this thread, it's obvious that you still don't quite understand how things work.

btw, the 91 pistons and rings are the same as all other ka24de pistons and rings.

-demetrius

Post by **fiznat** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

okay sorry about the SDS EIC-- I just saw SDS and assumed standalone.

I dont understand why you feel extra injectors are necessary for 250hp anyways... I mean with the MAF, S-AFC, BTM, and the 370cc'ers alone you should be good for some significant amounts of boost right there. The extra injectors are a way of adding more fuel to the system so that you can achieve the correct AFR, but as I'm sure you know you can also add a lot more fuel simply with the 370cc'ers and the S-AFC, which can trim the injectors + or - 50% (so YES, you can use the AFC to tune the fuel... thats why it's called the super air FUEL controller!) That right there should be plenty for your goal, I really dont think you're going to be needing all that 740 or whatever cc of fuel you mentioned. (imo) It's true that the S-AFC is not boost referenced, rather rpm referenced, but I really dont see that as too much of a problem... if you get a boost spike or something like that, the BTM (which IS boost referenced) should save you from too much damage by simply backing the timing waay out... Explain this to me if you think I'm wrong..

I have never heard that the S14 blocks had stronger internals, I was pretty sure that they were all the same. I could be wrong though, and I admit - Dennis' 350+ rwhp on stock internals is on a S14 block. Still though, I'm not convinced you're right about that.

Your setup is a lot like mine (although I'd like to get somewhere around 300rwhp), except I wasnt planning on any extra injectors. If money is tight I'd suggest scrapping the expensive HKS BOV and going with a 1g DSM one off of ebay for $50 or so, lots of people have done that. Also junk the EIC etc... I think it's a waste of money for your goals and what you've already picked out.

Anyways let us know how it goes.

Post by **d240t2** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

I haven't seen any hard proof that the S14 pistons are stronger than S13 pistons...Nissan doesn't have a different part number...and nobody could track down the source of that rumor. In other words, don't worry...your S13 motor is as strong as an S14 motor.

Dennis

Post by **cnichols** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

HolyShiznit wrote:No offense, I know you have gotten a really bad rap around here and I was willing to let you live and learn but.......this has made me cringe.

HOW MANY GUYS ON THIS BOARD HAVE YOU SEEN EVERYDAY TALKING AND POSTING THAT HAVE 250+whp on STOCK INTERNALS???

Jesus Christ is right, do you not read? It's NOT that hard, quite a few guys have done 300+whp .....stock internals. Sorry to blow up but man you get under my skin, especially with comments like that. How many stupid threads have been started with people asking "what's the most power I can make on a stock bottom end". EVERYONE replies that there isn't really a height set yet.....the whole KA-T thing is still relatively new. Most are running 220-280ish whp on stock internals. Sheesh.....

*retracts flamethrower*

I'm going to have to agree with you on this one. He's giving advice on boost controllers, but I see that he doesn't even have a turbocharged car.....:rolleyes

Post by **silviamaniac** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

demcj wrote:silviamaniac, i suggest you do a little more research before you continue with your project. based on the information you've posted in this thread, it's obvious that you still don't quite understand how things work.-demetrius

Which part of the statement i need more research?or, which part of the statement you do not understand?

About later KA having stronger Piston..http://forums.freshalloy.com/u...&vc=1

The find no different in part no. But debate in other forum seem couldnt find a truth on this issue. They found that the part no. is the same, but anyway, if Nissan decided to go with stronger piston after 95, they do not need to change the part no at all.

Also, the later S13 DOHC's didn't have the SCV...it was removed sometime during the '93 model year. Thus later 240sx like S14 KA doesn't have the intake manifold butterfly system like the S13 KA.

The '97-'98 S14 KA24DE also have other improvements compared to the '91-'96 KA24DE. Fasteners were changed for easier usage. An example. The nuts for the exhaust manifold. Early setup uses a thick washer and a lock nut. The '97-'98 uses a locking nut with a hat that doubles as the function of the washer. The nut is also cadnium coated (iirc) and won't rust compared to the earlier setup. P/N for the timing chains also changed.

I recalled one magazine stating that statement.

The argument that everyone used seem to be the part no. We do not know for sure if Nissan has changed all the piston and ring to stronger ones after 95 but stick to the same part no...

Weather it is rumor or not, it doesnt matter. This thread is asking comment on setup, does not intended to start a fight. i just want to play it safe at the moment. I HOPE IT IS A RUMOR TOO!!

Quote »I dont understand why you feel extra injectors are necessary for 250hp anyways... I mean with the MAF, S-AFC, BTM, and the 370cc'ers alone you should be good for some significant amounts of boost right there. The extra injectors are a way of adding more fuel to the system so that you can achieve the correct AFR, but as I'm sure you know you can also add a lot more fuel simply with the 370cc'ers and the S-AFC, which can trim the injectors + or - 50% (so YES, you can use the AFC to tune the fuel... thats why it's called the super air FUEL controller!) That right there should be plenty for your goal, I really dont think you're going to be needing all that 740 or whatever cc of fuel you mentioned. (imo) It's true that the S-AFC is not boost referenced, rather rpm referenced, but I really dont see that as too much of a problem... if you get a boost spike or something like that, the BTM (which IS boost referenced) should save you from too much damage by simply backing the timing waay out... Explain this to me if you think I'm wrong..[/quote]I know the S-AFC does that. I guess no one doesnt. But it doenst act like an Rising Rate FPR.

- I can run stock injectors when low boost and storm fuel with EIC when high boost. Besides EIC module give you more accurate tuning on fuel delivery.

- As mentioned earlier, I do not plan to stay in the range of 250hp forever. It is Plan for future upgrading. With later forged internal & rebuilt, i will not have trouble on fuel.

- I got it on ebay, 300 bucks for EIC, injectors, Manifold with Welded boses. Brand New. (isnt it unbeatable ? i bought this and sold my 370cc injectors the next day for 150.) Thus leaving my s-afc for tuning MAF and the BOV rerouting i mentioned.

- 1st GEN DSM bov? i sold mine, i got that thing initially, also the starion FMIC, just dont think the bov make nice sound and the starion doesnt look good at all :pface. I sold the BOV for 50bucks and gave starion to a fren who is doing a Turbo project on SE-R.

You statement have nothing wrong with my initial plan. I just got a better deal.

BTW, i already got all those stuff, half of them is installed, pls do not ask me to junk them, plssss :pface

Besides, i appreciete comments on tuning and stuff. Not commenting on "too general" or "product function" related issue.

Checkered-Member · Post by **Checkered-Member** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

HolyShiznit wrote:No offense, I know you have gotten a really bad rap around here and I was willing to let you live and learn but.......this has made me cringe.

HOW MANY GUYS ON THIS BOARD HAVE YOU SEEN EVERYDAY TALKING AND POSTING THAT HAVE 250+whp on STOCK INTERNALS???

Jesus Christ is right, do you not read? It's NOT that hard, quite a few guys have done 300+whp .....stock internals. Sorry to blow up but man you get under my skin, especially with comments like that. How many stupid threads have been started with people asking "what's the most power I can make on a stock bottom end". EVERYONE replies that there isn't really a height set yet.....the whole KA-T thing is still relatively new. Most are running 220-280ish whp on stock internals. Sheesh.....

*retracts flamethrower*

i was gone for 12 hours...

i should have specified that Stock internals means no head/valve job no balancing no porting noting, didn’t mean you need forged this and that, the KA will handle 12 psi for Christ sake,

Post by **aleph1** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

Generally when someone does 0 interal block work, they do 0 head and valvetrain work (save for maybe the camshafts). I have a rebuilt KA and I plan on boosting 8 daily and around 12-14 when I feel like it.

I have Hastings Import rings? Those quality stuff? As well as Topline Timing kit and Topline gasket kit, eh? ACL Import rod bearings...also decent? Ive never heard of these companies, vaguely hastings, but not much, must just be like oem type replacements? My car came with ALL RECIPTS (everything seriously), i even have my original sticker price paper, around 18K new =)

Post by **Nathan** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

I've heard of Hastings Rings...as for ACL bearings, I vaguely think I MIGHT have seen them sitting around at the machine shop, I'll check on monday though.

Post by **fiznat** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

silviamaniac wrote:- I can run stock injectors when low boost and storm fuel with EIC when high boost. Besides EIC module give you more accurate tuning on fuel delivery.

True I suppose, but then again you run into the problem of accurate fuel distribution. It's true that the extra injector is easier to control given certain engine conditions, but what's not so easy is guaranteeing that the fuel is atomized correctly and distributed EVENLY through each cyl. You mentioned that you picked up an intake mani on ebay along with the injectors so maybe your situation is different, but I know that the stock intake manis are designed to flow only air, not fluid-- and if you're trying to be as safe as possible (as I am also, and as I think you need to be on stock internals), I dont know how you can feel confident that one cyl will never be deprived of the extra fuel it needs. That's why I decided not to go EIC, anyways...

Quote »- 1st GEN DSM bov? i sold mine, i got that thing initially, also the starion FMIC, just dont think the bov make nice sound...[/quote]

Really?? Damn, I have never heard it before, but I was kinda crossing my fingers that it would sorta sound the same as a nice aftermarket BOV. I guess it's all reletave, but I think I need to go hear a few before I decide to cheap out myself.. haha good call.

Website · Post by **lbrowne** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

Ok Ok Ok....I need some clarification because quite honestly, facts and opinions I swear are different for every thread I read concerning KA-Ts on this forum.

So for the record and simply put, a STOCK KA, and I mean everything internally STOCK, and in good running order...

Can handle 8-14 PSI (ok lets focus on 12) of boost no problem with proper fuel management, tuning and other precautions??

The idea of a KA-T has got me so confused as to whats possible and whats not with a STOCK internal KA. No head work, no valvetrain work..nothing...

S T O C K

Post by **Nathan** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

You got it lbrowne

the MOST important thing is just staying away from detonation, the ring lands are weak and WILL frag themselves if inclined to.

Post by **silviamaniac** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

fiznat wrote:True I suppose, but then again you run into the problem of accurate fuel distribution. It's true that the extra injector is easier to control given certain engine conditions, but what's not so easy is guaranteeing that the fuel is atomized correctly and distributed EVENLY through each cyl. You mentioned that you picked up an intake mani on ebay along with the injectors so maybe your situation is different, but I know that the stock intake manis are designed to flow only air, not fluid-- and if you're trying to be as safe as possible (as I am also, and as I think you need to be on stock internals), I dont know how you can feel confident that one cyl will never be deprived of the extra fuel it needs. That's why I decided not to go EIC, anyways...

Really?? Damn, I have never heard it before, but I was kinda crossing my fingers that it would sorta sound the same as a nice aftermarket BOV. I guess it's all reletave, but I think I need to go hear a few before I decide to cheap out myself.. haha good call.

i do not understand:"but then again you run into the problem of accurate fuel distribution. It's true that the extra injector is easier to control given certain engine conditions, but what's not so easy is guaranteeing that the fuel is atomized correctly and distributed EVENLY through each cyl. "

"but I know that the stock intake manis are designed to flow only air, not fluid--"

I think they are not they way u understand them to be.

Evenly or not, you must install it correctly. To install it correctly, 4 extra injectors must be mounted on an angle directly facing the manifold outlet. Then intake air will guide the fuel to the engine.

If you are mounting ur injectors, assuming one at top and one a bottom, EVEN distribution might be an issue, but i do not see anyone as stupid as that.

As for the 1st GEN, with engine hood on, u BARELY can hear the sound.. With they hood off, you might hear some. And why do you think 1st GEN ppl are throwing them away?

Post by **HolyShiznit** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

silviamaniac wrote:As for the 1st GEN, with engine hood on, u BARELY can hear the sound.. With they hood off, you might hear some. And why do you think 1st GEN ppl are throwing them away?

Umm 1st gen people sell them to the 2nd gen people....and a lot of people use them for custom turbo kits. Also, 1st gen DSM's generally UPGRADE to a different BOV a lot use RFL's. Duh, that's why there are so many around. My friend's KA-T is only at 4psi with a very LOUD exhaust and dumped wastegate....I can STILL hear his 1st gen BOV when I am AHEAD of him with my windows rolled up. WRX's also use the SAME BOV design, in fact they are nearly identical. We routed my friends WRX to open atmosphere and his is insanely loud. I could go on and on but whatever..... 1st gen BOV's are a damn good alternative to spending 200+ on a really good aftermarket BOV. Why do you think so many KA-T guys are using them, ( I have one too! ) It also depends on how much boost you are running. At 8-9psi the suckers are loud on KA-T's.

Post by **silviamaniac** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

IS that true? i have a couple of 1st gen Talon friend who changed the BOV because they say it doesnt sound loud at all + plus the tone isnt sweet.

I heard them blow off too, they are nothing. 1st gen ppl sell to 2nd gen because 2nd gen is made of plastic (or pvc?, not solid metal) which leak at 9psi

They are widely use because they are CHEAP alternative and get the job done, it holds till 17psi and i bet KA-T doest go that far in a regular basis. As long as the sound, i disagree because i heard them on a 4g63 myself. Its not consider at the "LOUD" side at all (for me). This is assumption on a unvented setup.

Even if its vented, its still nothing close.

Post by **solarex** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

silviamaniac wrote:
That is not standalone.. Its a EIC modulePls check here for more info. EIC =EXTRA INJECTOR MODULE !=STANDALONEEIC does not retard at all.http://www.sdsefi.com/eic.html

you are looking at their module, it's not the primary unit.

Quote » from sds's site:

A programmable engine management system like the SDS EM-4 series allows the precise changing of fuel delivery and ignition timing according to the individual requirements of the particular application.

Unlike other programmable systems on the market, EM-4 does not require a laptop for programming. This feature makes it far less expensive and much easier to use than it's competitors.

The SDS EM-4 can replace the entire factory EFI system on 4,6 and 8 cylinder engines or upgrade older carburetted engines to port type fuel injection with ignition control.[/quote]http://www.sdsefi.com scroll down to the middle section

Post by **klattr1** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

most eclipse bov's are rerouted back into piping from the factory. So of course its not going to be as loud compared to just dumping it out to the atmosphere.

Post by **andrave** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 pm

I hear stories of additional injectors leaning out whichever cylinder gets shorted by way of intake manifold design, it leans out, cracks a piston or ring, whatever...thats one of the problems with that design.same with big wet shots.

When will my KA blow?

When will my KA blow?

hey

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