well what is better, getting the S13 cams or getting aftermarket camgears like AEM ??
thanks!!
whats the better cam Modification ?
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96_S14_SE
- Posts: 973
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 11:10 am
- Car: 96 S14 SE - 05 VW GTI 1.8t - 89 S13 coupe "gold on brown"
Im assuming you have an s14, with a set of cams choked by a short intake open length at high rpms....
As far as I know only JWT makes KA cam gears, and they only offer 2.5 degrees adjustment per notch. Since the gears on the ka are so tiny, the only thing you can do is just add more notches for the pin like they did...
Basically cams dictate how much air/fuel mix can be entered and gasses expelled and for how long, through lift, or downward force on the valve, and duration, how long the valve is open for. Also they determine when the valves open and close relative to the stroke.
Adjustable gears will allow you to adjust when the cams start their process, and the duratin dictates the end relative to the start. It a way to fine tune your cams to get the most out of them. Um will you know what is optimal without a dyno...... nope... If you start out with a crap cam setup and tune it on a dyno, you will get optimum performance from that cam set, but could be less benificial then a non adjusted cam upgrade alone.
As to reaserching first, I say, its your money. To elaborate, do you want to drop lots of coin on different parts, slap them all together, and hope they make power or work together as you would like.? I mean if they dont, and actually counteract one another its only money right?
I prefer to reasearch things alot first, then make purchases and tune knowing that it will help me out. I then will also know that by doing so what the downsides will be. If I can accept the downside of such mod for the increase in performance it offers then I do it. If I cant, I dont see any logic in spending my precious funding on it. Trail and error is rather silly and costly when there are many many many people out there who have led the way and posted their experiance on the matter.
Plus through reading and learning what everything does prior to doing it, you gain knowledge... With that knowledge you can help others down the line... I personally wouldnt like to be someone who just lists name brands installed on the car and when asked what each does goes "I dont know I just buy em and have someone put the stuff on"..
As far as I know only JWT makes KA cam gears, and they only offer 2.5 degrees adjustment per notch. Since the gears on the ka are so tiny, the only thing you can do is just add more notches for the pin like they did...
Basically cams dictate how much air/fuel mix can be entered and gasses expelled and for how long, through lift, or downward force on the valve, and duration, how long the valve is open for. Also they determine when the valves open and close relative to the stroke.
Adjustable gears will allow you to adjust when the cams start their process, and the duratin dictates the end relative to the start. It a way to fine tune your cams to get the most out of them. Um will you know what is optimal without a dyno...... nope... If you start out with a crap cam setup and tune it on a dyno, you will get optimum performance from that cam set, but could be less benificial then a non adjusted cam upgrade alone.
As to reaserching first, I say, its your money. To elaborate, do you want to drop lots of coin on different parts, slap them all together, and hope they make power or work together as you would like.? I mean if they dont, and actually counteract one another its only money right?
I prefer to reasearch things alot first, then make purchases and tune knowing that it will help me out. I then will also know that by doing so what the downsides will be. If I can accept the downside of such mod for the increase in performance it offers then I do it. If I cant, I dont see any logic in spending my precious funding on it. Trail and error is rather silly and costly when there are many many many people out there who have led the way and posted their experiance on the matter.
Plus through reading and learning what everything does prior to doing it, you gain knowledge... With that knowledge you can help others down the line... I personally wouldnt like to be someone who just lists name brands installed on the car and when asked what each does goes "I dont know I just buy em and have someone put the stuff on"..
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Open4Cycle
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 7:33 pm
I would (have) spend the money on aftermarket cam (not s-13 retro), adjustable sprockets, and a DEGREE WHEEL if I wanted a perfomance gain. Allot of what 96_S14_SE is good advice to some but if you know what degree to put certain events then you can adjust for a gain where you want it. If you don't know and you don't change them then you will never know! I would hate to know that everything I do was because someone told me that it worked and I never took the time to research and learn why it did.
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96_S14_SE
- Posts: 973
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 11:10 am
- Car: 96 S14 SE - 05 VW GTI 1.8t - 89 S13 coupe "gold on brown"
But how will you know where to set the gears if you dont dyno it? Evry single car will be different from the next even with equal mods. So if one guy has the same setup as you and he dyno'd well at so and so degrees retarded on the intake, it doesnt nesicarilly mean that you will do the same.
If you dont plan on precision tuning then I wouldnt get a gear. BUTT tuning isnt accurate to a few ponies here and there and at what rpm range. The human memory isnt even accurate to relate these feelings well from one setting to the next.
There are no degree gears that I have ever seen for a KA. The gear is only 2 - 2.5 inces in diameter with a 1/4" pin at the edge to boot. AFAIK JWT has the only ka24de gear set and its just notched and adjustable in 2.5° increments.
Also knowing what you want out of your car will help you alot in getting what you need. You may not like peak gains of 15 rwhp (speculation from a hypothetical cam) from 6k - 6.5k if you give up tons of low and mid range hp to get there. You may just want top end power and dont really care if it lags like a dog before flinging you back. I ran the 240-248 stock s13 cams and while it pulled very nice at 4.5k and up, I wanted a boost a bit lower even if I had to lose some upper. The 248-232 hybrid had a gain from the 248-248 in the mid with a loss at the high side, but I didnt have any info about going from 240-248 to the hybrid... I gave it a shot anyway and found the upper wasnt lost enough to notice on the butt dyno but the pull now starts at 4k thus I got what I wanted... I also got some other side effects for the better, I wasnt expecting so Im happy for now.
If you dont plan on precision tuning then I wouldnt get a gear. BUTT tuning isnt accurate to a few ponies here and there and at what rpm range. The human memory isnt even accurate to relate these feelings well from one setting to the next.
There are no degree gears that I have ever seen for a KA. The gear is only 2 - 2.5 inces in diameter with a 1/4" pin at the edge to boot. AFAIK JWT has the only ka24de gear set and its just notched and adjustable in 2.5° increments.
Also knowing what you want out of your car will help you alot in getting what you need. You may not like peak gains of 15 rwhp (speculation from a hypothetical cam) from 6k - 6.5k if you give up tons of low and mid range hp to get there. You may just want top end power and dont really care if it lags like a dog before flinging you back. I ran the 240-248 stock s13 cams and while it pulled very nice at 4.5k and up, I wanted a boost a bit lower even if I had to lose some upper. The 248-232 hybrid had a gain from the 248-248 in the mid with a loss at the high side, but I didnt have any info about going from 240-248 to the hybrid... I gave it a shot anyway and found the upper wasnt lost enough to notice on the butt dyno but the pull now starts at 4k thus I got what I wanted... I also got some other side effects for the better, I wasnt expecting so Im happy for now.
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Open4Cycle
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 7:33 pm
I agree there is no better test than a dyno. There are certain changes that will have the same effects. For example longer ports like wider lobe seperation. Something like 114deg and short wet ports are usually happy around 106deg. It is no black art here , it is physics. Every action can and has been predicted. So I say those adjustable sprockets can be used with a gain without having a dyno if you know what your doing. Those sprockets can be made adjustable also. Just because those degree marks only show 2.5 degree increments doesn't mean that it can't be adjusted to 30 minute increments. If you initially set the cam by marks on a sprocket then your barking up the wrong tree anyhow. Your camshaft should be setup using a degree wheel. If it wasn't then you can't say I have my cam retarded 1 degree. There are other ways to make your sprockets adjustable. Eccentric bushings work great for me. I make up a set of eccentric bushings to adjust my cam 6 deg. in 1 deg. incriments either way and then drill a hole in the stock sprockets to fit the od of the bushing.Oh just to let you know how good my modeling and predicting has been for the last 22 years of building racing engines (non Nissan) I have tried thousands of camshafts. I have them stacked everywhere. lol
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Scott McLellan
- Posts: 299
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:53 am
This is what I take of all this, unless you have more than just an intake and plug wires or something stay with the stock settings. I can gaurentee you Nissan engineers know more than you when it comes to camshaft sprockets because they have the resources and money to do it. That means that unless you wildly changed the engine, don't spend dyno time tuning for 3-5 hp for however many hours at hundreds of dollars per hour just so you can put another sticker on your car. Hey, but what do I know....
