What would alcohol injection do to the a/f ratio?

[Red Lightning]

What would alcohol injection do to the a/f ratio? Lets say my a/f ratio is 12:1, now if I inject additional 10% alcohol will my ratio be richer (11:1) or will it be leaner (13:1)? Can tell me which is correct? Thanks. :ylsuper

[slw240sx]

i think it will lean you out since the only reason for it is to cool the intake charge! therefore making the charger denser and leaning it ouT

[1fast200]

With alky you will probably run lean.

[mickee]

and make you faster....

[Red Lightning]

I don't want to run too lean and blow my engine. But maybe just a little alcohol.

[undertaker]

the alcohol adds to the octane rating while the cooling effect will increase the density of the air charge. i can't answer your queston definatively but the net effect will be less detonation due to a cooler charge and more knock resistant fuel.

[Red Lightning]

Alcohol adds octane ratings too? Can anyone canfirm that? If so, its great for more boost. Thanks.

[Bizz]

take a gander at this. http://www.standardalcohol.com/ Octane ratings of 138. Dang you could push a lot of boost on that stuff. Plus you could get some treehuggers off your back.

[Red Lightning]

Where can I get that 138octane alcohol? Is it still in the R&D period?

[rtsol]

it doesnt work like that. you cant run an alcohol/gas mix through gasoline injectors(well you can but injector life will suffer) also, running alcohol all the time will wear your motor out faster. like all the alcohol track only cars, youd have to rebuild frequently. the alcohol injection that was talked about some months back by WD, was the NOS type setup. it would only inject at a predetermined boost level. ex: say your running 25 psi boost, and you have the alky kick in @ 15psi. so your running run of the mill premuim(93octane) until you boost more than 15psi, then the octane would jump to ?(some outlandish octane ratin) when the alky is activated so you can avoid detonation. so really all it does is allow alot more boost than your fuel setup can NORMALLY handle.

[Red Lightning]

I'm going to get a Alcohol injection kit, but if the 138 octane alcohol is available (and cheap), I will use that instead.

[rtsol]

ummm....your not understanding. the 138 octane fuel IS alcohol. you cant run that stuff in a daily driver. actually not even in a full blown race car unless you rebuild everyother race.

[carbonbridge]

(ummm....your not understanding. the 138 octane fuel IS alcohol. you cant run that stuff in a daily driver. actually not even in a full blown race car unless you rebuild everyother race.)••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Hey, some of you guys sound like you've been sidetracked with alky / oiley disinformation for most of your lives. Got me laughing to read some of this recent discussion.

Whadaya mean you can't run alky in daily driver? Grain ethanol has been the "super" secret ingredient which makes 90% of America's super premium unleaded actually super. It's simply been gasohol in disguise since 1981. They sell it to you from a gold pump based upon a higher octane rating, --the majors don't tell consumers that the tailpipe is 25% cleaner by driving super premium unleaded.

I read that the 138 higher mixed alcohol you've been discussing is a synthetic blend of methanol, ethanol, propanol, butanol, pentanol, hexanol, heptanol and 8-carbon octanol. It has an air fuel ratio of 12 to 1. Gasoline is normally 14 to 1. So it is a leaner mixture. About 5% by volume in 85 octane reference gasoline(meaning no oxygenates yet) will raise the gasoline's octane to about 109. Ten percent blends work just fine in daily drivers and you ought to try about 50% of any available fuel alcohol your fuel injected daily drivers and see what it feels like. No engine adjustments whatsoever are needed. When they are made, THEN you'll really begin to feel the power difference.

Racers burn up their race car engines. Alcohol doesn't burn them up. Alcohols burn slower and cooler than does gasoline, diesel or jet fuel.

Look around for some ethanol or even E-85 blends. Try some extra volumes in your daily car first, get some confidence, smell a much cleaner tailpipe, then you wouldn't be afraid to load up such fuel in your special-version racecar. And fuel injectors? Hell, all alcohols simply clean them of petroleum gum andvarnish. Nothing new here. If you increase the fuel volume flows just a tad to make up for alcohol's less btu's when compared to gasoline, THEN start advancing your engine's spark ignition timing, then you'll realize what high octane is all about.

When I run neat alcohols, (methanol, grain ethanol or mixed alcohols) I advance my spark ignition to 22 deg. bfdc and at 3,000 rpm with centrifigal advance working the distributor, the timing is about 45-48 degrees advanced. It's hard to believe when pushing the timing that far in advance and you still can't make the engine ping.

Too many people think high octane is high power. Wrong. You gotta properly adjust a/f ratios and then begin to advance engine ignition's timing to really feel the extra power, which can be 20-30% more. High octane is simply a reference for a given fuel's ability to resist pre-ignition and ping. Hope this helps.

--CarbonBridge

[slw240sx]

werd, one of the best first posts i ever read! this is what i wanted to learn more about ! where can i get some more reading material about timming advance and fuel ratios , tunning type related materials???

[Red Lightning]

Carbonbridge, your post is very good. But where can I get such high octane fuels, most available alcohol is Isopopral alcohol, which only has an octane rating of 101, that does not raise the octane much when mixed with 92 octane fuel (10% mix). If I can find some 110 or higher octane alcohol that would be great.

Btw, I'm not talking about using it all the time, just when I need to turn up the boost. Since I will use a alcohol injection kit, I can control when I want the extra alcohol. So my injectors will not be damaged anyway.

[1dollar240]

I prefer drinking it instead of injecting.

[MrBob 86]

Get yourself some methonal. You can get it at most any racetrack. Dont try running your car on methonal only though, as it will harden rubber fuel system parts and requires a a/f of about 6.5 to 1. If you want to run it in a water injection type system that would be fine to do, you can also get the methanol at a place that services farm tractors as they mix it with water and put it in tractor tires. You really dont need to run more than a 50% mix in a water injection system though. About wearing the engine out quickly, thats not an issue unless you are running the engine on straight methanol, and its not that much of an issue then as you can add a toplube to the fuel. Adding a 10% mix to your pump gas will raise your octane rating by about 5 points. BTW, I've been running racing gokarts on methanol for years.

[carbonbridge]

>Carbonbridge, your post is very good. But >where can I get such high octane fuels, >most available alcohol is Isopopral alcohol, >which >only has an octane rating of 101, >that does not raise the octane much when >mixed with 92 octane fuel (10% mix). If I >can find some 110 or higher octane alcohol >that would be great. Btw, I'm not talking >about using it all the time, just when I >need to turn up the boost. Since I will use >a alcohol injection kit, I can control when I >want the extra alcohol. So my injectors will >not be damaged anyway.••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••Dear Nissan Hotrodder: I've not heard of folks using isopropanol alcohol in their cars. This is the dilute alcohol you can buy at the grocery store typically referred to as "rubbing alcohol." The store variety is usually only 70% alcohol or 140 proof, so it contains 30% water. People use this version to calm skin itch, mosquito bites, etc... You'd only want to use this version as a fuel alcohol if it is dried, typically referred to as anhydrous. The "iso" refers to a non-straight chain molecule. The middle carbon atom in this 3-carbon mixture (iso)-raised (propanol)-3 carbons,,, is elevated. It plays hell with your stomach if you dare drink it and it doesn't biodegrade too well because of the "iso" raised or elevated carbon atom in its molecular chain.

Same problem with MTBE. Actually this oxygenate works pretty good at the tailpipe, but it also is an "iso" configuration in the ether molecule with a trinary carbon bonding structure that once diluted in lakes, rivers, streams or groundwater, the natural bugs, microbes or bacteria can't eat the trinary carbon bond for lunch and thus biodegrade it. It would probably have a neat octane of 101 as you suggest.

What you and other motorheads are interested in is a single chain, simple structured fuel alcohol molecule. Conversely, gasoline is composed of 85 to 110 ingredients, many of them extremely complex and like all oils, this product floats on water, it doesn't mix, breakdown, feed the natural bacteria and bugs and thus biodegrade.

The easiest fuel alcohol to get your hands on is fermented grain ethanol. It is a two-carbon, straight chain molecule which typically features about 70% of the btu's or energy density of gasoline. It has a pump octane of about 108 and a lower reid vapor pressure between 1 and 2 psi. Summer gasoline's vapor pressure is about 8, winter gasoline vapor pressures can be has high as 12 or even 15 in the mountainous regions.

I suggested in my first post to do a little research on the net and see where in your area you can buy some E-85. This fuel is typically available at a couple of gas station outlets in most big cities, more so in the midwestern states. You can fill up some 5-gallon jerry jugs and take it back to the home garage to experiment with... It is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. Use this blend to volumetrically boost your gasoline. Ten, twenty and even thirty percent alcohol in gasoline works just fine in unadjusted engines. I typically keep my fuel alcohol to about 25% volumes when using carbs and will stoke it to 65% or 75% volumes with fuel injection. All without doing any engine adjustments whatsoever. :-)

You'll get the power boost from the extra octane kick IF you ADVANCE the spark ignition. In any case, you'll have a much sweeter, cleaner tailpipe.

You can typically find single-carbon methanol as well from chemical dealers, pick up the yellow pages. Methanol has less btu's than does 2-carbon ethanol. The methanol is very biodegradable, it can be flushed down the toilet and rebuild the bugs at the local sewer plant, but it is poisonous. Two shotglasses will make you go blind, three ounces will kill you. The antidote is to get rip-roaring drunk on 2-carbon ethanol. Methanol is also a little bit more corrosive than is 2-carbon ethanol, but most of the horror stories about methanol's corrosiveness are WAY overplayed. It features about 1/2 of the energy density of gasoline.

The 138 octane higher mixed alcohols, C1-C8 as outlined in that website are not commercially available. I called the company, but they say that smaller bottles of it will be first sold as an additive at auto parts stores, maybe by the end of this summer. There will be some public displays of how it works to tame emissions in the worst polluting cars now operating on the Dallas/Ft. Worth freeways later this year as well.

And fuel injectors? Once again, fuel alcohols (any kind) cleans them of the gums and varnish buildup from petrochemical-based, hydrocarbon gasoline. Don't worry about alcohols hurting your fuel injectors. More dis-information.

Hope this helps some.

Try some E-85 in your Mother's Car or daily driver and then dump some in to your hotrods. Advance the spark ignition timing a bit and feel the difference in power.

Indy 500 racers have been running on pure methanol for 28 years now, for a reason. Their mechanics simply balance the combustion stochieometry which is air/fuel ratio (lean/rich fuel adjustments to the air displacement in the piston chamber) coupled with advanced timing and presto, about 30% more power. Yet those Indy 500 engines burn up about twice as much fuel because the methanol is only 1/2 of the btu carbon content as is gasoline.

Alcohols don't burn up hotrod engines, the drivers burn up their engines. All alcohols burn slower and cooler than gasoline. Fact, not fiction.

Nite.

--CarbonBridge

[YellowPreludeR]

There is a paint thinner type alchocol called tolulene or something to that name. when mixed with gasolene in the proper amount will raise the octane about 10 points. I had an article but ill have to find it again. Its great stuff available to anyone at a hardware store. It makes the gas burn quicker but cooler. ill find the article somewhere.

[carbonbridge]

YellowPreludeR:

Dear Sir,Please note that Toluene is NOT a water soluble fuel alcohol. Toluene (methylbenzene, toluol, phenylmethane) is an aromatic hydrocarbon (C7H8) commonly used as an industrial solvent for the manufacturing of paints, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, and rubber.

You are dealing with disinformation to think that this product is a fuel alcohol. The toxicity sheet below will give you some highlights. Toluene in gasoline is typically associated with xylene and benzene. The levels of these aromatics in gasoline have been drastically lowered way down by the EPA from the volumes where they used to be just 8 years ago prior to reformulated gasoline's introduction in the USA.

In Israel, the common term for gasoline is "benzene" because their gasoline (and that of many other countries) contains much higher levels of this carcinogenic chemical. I remember 30 years ago that I used to wash car parts in gasoline and put my hands right into it. No more! When I pour a little gasoline into a lawn mower and spill some on my hands, I immediately wash my hands because chemicals like toluene, benzene and xylene can be absorbed right through the skin. Go visit any refinery and look at how they label tanks with these aromatics and/or ask a few employees what they think of this stuff...

You might buy some toluene at the paint store AND your car might run on it, but you are simply polluting the atmosphere even more by doing so. My advice is don't buy this stuff and add more of it to your gasoline. Try some methanol, ethanol or higher mixed alcohols instead.

Nite.

--CarbonBridge

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••Toxicity, TolueneLast Updated: November 27, 2001Synonyms and related keywords: methylbenzene, toluol, phenylmethane, huffing, bagging

Introduction Clinical Differentials Workup Treatment Medication Follow-up Miscellaneous Bibliography

Author: Kevin A Martin, MD, Staff Physician, Department of Emergency Medicine, The Toledo Hospital Kevin A Martin, MD, is a member of the following medical societies: American College of Emergency Physicians

Background: Toluene (methylbenzene, toluol, phenylmethane) is an aromatic hydrocarbon (C7H8) commonly used as an industrial solvent for the manufacturing of paints, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, and rubber. It is identified as CAS#108-88-3 and United Nations Department of Transportation's number for toluene is UN#1294.

Toluene is found in gasoline, acrylic paints, varnishes, lacquers, paint thinners, adhesives, glues, rubber cement, airplane glue, and shoe polish. At room temperature, toluene is a colorless, sweet smelling, volatile liquid.

Toxicity can occur from accidental or deliberate inhalation of fumes, ingestion, or absorption through the skin. Toluene abuse or glue sniffing has become widespread, especially among children or adolescents, because it is readily available and inexpensive. Toluene is commonly abused by saturating or soaking a sock or rag with spray paint, placing it over the nose and mouth, and inhaling to get a sensation of euphoria, buzz, or high. Slang names for inhalation include huffing (ie, soaking a sock or rag) and bagging (ie, spraying paint into a plastic bag and inhaling). With bagging, exhaled air is rebreathed and resulting hypoxia and hypercapnia may add to the disorienting effects of the solvent.

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has determined the acceptable level of occupational exposure to toluene for people in the workplace. Toluene levels of 100 ppm are considered safe for workers. Levels of 150 ppm are acceptable for short periods (<8 h). Toluene levels of 2000 ppm are considered dangerous to life and health. However, some people may be more sensitive to the effects of inhaled solvents than others; occupational asthma has occurred in some workers exposed to toluene levels considered safe in the workplace. For such people, protective equipment should be used and provided by employers, even when toluene levels are in the acceptable range. Workers with a history of asthma induced by solvent exposure should also be warned about and protected from short-term exposure to higher concentrations.

Pathophysiology: Acute intoxication from inhalation primarily affects the CNS, causing euphoria, dizziness, confusion, CNS depression, headache, vertigo, hallucinations, seizures, ataxia, tinnitus, optic neuropathy, peripheral neuropathy, stupor, and coma.

Toluene also may have direct negative effects on cardiac automaticity and conduction and may sensitize the myocardium to circulating catecholamines. Sudden death secondary to cardiac arrhythmias has been reported. Pulmonary effects include bronchospasm, asphyxia, and aspiration pneumonitis.

Long-term toluene exposure or abuse is devastating, affecting the CNS, GI system, liver, kidneys, skeletal muscle, blood, and skin. Chronic CNS sequelae include neuropsychosis, cerebral cortex atrophy, cerebellar degeneration and ataxia, optic and peripheral neuropathies, decreased cognitive ability, blindness, and deafness.

GI symptoms from inhalation and ingestion may result in abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, and hematemesis. Reported renal toxicity from toluene exposure includes renal tubular acidosis, hypokalemia, hypophosphatemia, hyperchloremia, azotemia, pyuria, hematuria, and proteinuria. Hepatotoxicity manifests with ascites, jaundice, hepatomegaly, and liver failure.

Hematological consequences of exposure may include lymphocytosis, macrocytosis, eosinophilia, hypochromia, and basophilic stippling. Cutaneous contact with skin may range in severity from dermatitis to extensive chemical burns with coagulation necrosis. Toluene affects skeletal muscle; rhabdomyolysis, myoglobinemia, and a severe muscle weakness similar to Guillain-Barré have been reported.

Frequency:

* In the US: Glue is accessible and inexpensive; thus, glue sniffing is becoming widespread. Most frequently, glue sniffing is observed in teenagers and young adults in lower economic groups. An estimated 3-4% of American teenagers engage in sniffing on a regular basis and 7-12% of high school students have tried sniffing at least once. Incidence in young people is rising. Chronic nonintentional exposure also occurs among people in the painting, gasoline, chemical, and rubber industries. The 1998 annual report of the American Association of Poison Control Centers Toxic Exposure Surveillance System records only 2312 exposures to toluene and xylene combined. Of these, only 15 sustained major adverse outcomes, and no deaths were reported. This report severely underestimates the abuse of this agent.

* Internationally: Solvent abuse is a popular practice around the world. In the United Kingdom, 3.5-10% of children younger than 13 years have abused volatile substances, and 0.5-1% are long-term users. In Singapore, toluene glue sniffing has reached epidemic proportions. In 1980, 24 cases of solvent abuse were reported. By 1984, this number had increased to 763. From 1987-1991, 1781 glue sniffers were identified. In low-income families in Sao Paulo, Brazil, 24% of children had inhaled a volatile substance at some time and 4.9% had inhaled within the last month. Petrol (containing 13% toluene) sniffing has been reported among Native Americans in Canada and Aborigines in Australia.

Mortality/Morbidity: Sudden death is the most serious risk from inhalation of toluene or other volatile substances. Although trauma, aspiration, and asphyxia from plastic bag use are contributing factors to mortality from solvent abuse, 4 direct modes of toxicity leading to death from toluene and other inhaled substances are anoxia, respiratory depression, vagal stimulation, and, most importantly, cardiac arrhythmias.

Volatile substance abuse sensitizes the myocardium to circulating catecholamines. Sudden alarm, exercise, and sexual activity may induce arrhythmias. In many cases of death associated with solvent abuse, fright and running were the immediate antemortem events.

Prolonged exposure to toluene by inhalation is associated with CNS, heart, liver, kidney, and lung damage. Other sequelae include muscle weakness, nasal ulcerations, recurrent epistaxis, chronic rhinitis, neuropsychiatric abnormalities, GI symptoms, and peripheral neuropathies (see Pathophysiology).

Fifty percent of chronic solvent abusers are women in their prime childbearing years. With exposure, toluene crosses the placenta and additional morbidity arises from children born with abnormalities similar to fetal-alcohol syndrome (FAS).

* In the 1960s, a total of 110 cases of sudden death from solvent abuse were reported in the US. In 1988, in the UK, 133 deaths were reported in people aged 11-76 years and from varying social backgrounds; 72% of these deaths occurred in adolescents, and 90% of deaths occurred in males.

* In Singapore, from 1983-1991, 33 people were found to have toluene in their blood postmortem; 22 were known glue sniffers; 11 were suspected of solvent abuse; 6.1% of deaths were from acute toluene poisoning; and 87.9% were associated with falling, drowning, or jumping, which suggests a correlation between the intoxicating effect of toluene and the high incidence of traumatic death of its users.

* From 1983-1991, 4 deaths attributed to occupational exposures were reported in Singapore.

Race: No scientific data indicate that outcomes of toluene exposure are based on race.

Sex: Although typically thought of as an activity of young males (most mortalities occur in young males), more than 50% of chronic solvent abusers are females in their prime childbearing years.

Age: Toluene inhalation is found in people of all ages.

* Most acute cases occur in young males aged 11-19 years who participate in glue sniffing as a group activity.

* Cases have been reported in people aged in their 50s and 60s.

[slw240sx]

because i used to inhale alot of paint fumes i dont have the attention span to read all this ! summary for me please!

[Red Lightning]

So unburn toluene is pretty harmful when inhaled, but how toxic is the fumes from a car that added toluene into their cars? If it was used no long ago in gasoline, it couldn't be that toxic. Adding 5 points to the gas can dramaticly decrease the chance of detonation, so maybe just adding a little in the gas is not that bad right.

[YellowPreludeR]

thats what this article is about. not burning 100% toluene, but a 2-5% mixture. its prefectly safe and effective. It is used by formula F1 with the 1500HP drag cars too. its more effective than octane booster, but with a cooler temperature. ill find the article and tell you all about it.