What should my next car be?

[frapjap]

Its been a while since we've had a "what car should I get?!" thread.

I recently sold my ’99 Trans Am convertible and am on the lookout for a new toy. I have some criteria, and though some of it is kind of silly from a car enthusiast sense, it still applies. My major reason for selling the current car is that the LS1 can’t really be driven on the edge as often as I’d like it to, even on the auto-x course. Its limits are higher, and thus the threshold for fun and really enjoying the car are higher and it isn’t all that safe or smart to drive a car that fast on backroads where anything can happen to an innocent person. So, away it goes.

Some history:
Among the fun cars I’ve previously owned are a couple of third gen F bodies, a pair of 240’s, a miata (modded into a turbo miata), and the fourth gen F body. I used to race auto-x, and may again, but haven’t found as much time in the past couple of years. I like convertibles, but don’t necessarily need one. I like handling more than I like speed, but speed is still nice in a pinch and the next car should be at least as quick as a V6 Camry- or at least feel fast. I have a preference to a car that ‘drives small’ even if the body isn’t small.
I have spent a good deal of seat time in a BRZ and a new Miata. I really like both. I’ve almost crossed the ND Miata off the list because though it is newer, an older (and cheaper) Miata is just as good of a car. The BRZ is great, but I’m interested in hearing some other vehicle options that I might’ve missed.

Criteria:
- Manual
- RWD (LSD a huge plus)
- Quick enough, but doesn’t have to be fast. Example- a 370z is going to be too fast for my use.
- Must handle well
- Don’t want to spend loads of time fixing the car. If older, it should be easy to repair, and warranty cars are welcome
- Not German, unless its a reasonably easy to repair model.

Price:
- 20k max for a newer used car- must be new enough for a good interest rate
- 10k max for a cash purchase
- I do not really want to build something. Selling after building a sweet car is really difficult and tends to result in a financial loss when it comes time to offload it.
- But- I would buy a well done modded car, but it'd be a case by case basis.

Additional Interests:
-Classic Japanese metal (Example-Datsun coupes, a first gen RX7, no AE86s or DSMs)

If you've got any cool examples from CL in your area or just a good suggestion, post it up!

[Kenrik]

I think you might look into a Lotus Elise. You can find them sub ~30k and it's going to be the most fun you will find in AutoX.

[Kenrik]

To expand on the Elise Idea.. It has a Toyota engine so.. reliable and you can get parts for it. Here is a low mile Elise in the low 30s http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale ... 1=LOTELISE

[MinisterofDOOM]

There's only one correct answer to "Which manual RWD car should I buy for less than $20k?"

[Kenrik]

^ Ignore him.

[Heavy]

Go buy that big bird yellow brap brap brap mobile you showed me.

[OriginalWheelman]

SR20 Swap an R32.

[Bubba1]

I dunno, a CTS-V is not an awful choice. They're one of the few cadillacs that don't require an AARP card. Problem is they look like the base model which does require one.

A few ideas:

Chevy SS (full sized rwd sedan + 400 hp = sleeper fun)

C6 Corvette. Z06 prices are dropping quickly. If you can tolerate the seats, it's an impressive car. You'll keep pace with pretty much everything.

Nissan 350Z/Infiniti G: I know, I'm biased, but it's a durable honest sports car that you can turn off the nannies with just one button. Though granted it's now considered a momentum car.

I know you're not into German cars, but there are some older less complex ones to be considered if you can find non-rusty examples


1994-1995.5 Audi S4/S6. The last great "over engineered" Audi, are still affordable and are beginning to appreciate. My late best friend had several and used 'em both on/off track. They're quite good on track too. His widow still has 2. I've thought about buying one of them. Fast, agile (for a big car) roomy, comfortable, reliable 5 cyl turbo with man-pedal, and not the technological terrors you think. It's also quite good in snow.

Audi Urquattro: collectible now. Think Audi coupe Quattro with better engine. I did a winter driving school gig in one. I loved it. Also made before German cars got overly complex.

older BMw 5 series, pre I-drive. Like what Brian has. Pretty bulletproof and less complicated.

I'd advise against a Lotus. Yes it has a Toyota motor, and is a great track car. Problems include it being tiny, very little luggage room, annoying to get in/out, and poor rear visibility (exige especially). Not a car you take on an overnight trip. Most of the Elise/exige owners I know are now ex-owners. They had to trailer them to/from the track and they all pretty much agreed they were not good for much else besides track days. If you only do a few per year, it's a lotta money for track toy. If you want something that small and nimble but not a Miata, there's always the 1992 Toyota MR2 Turbo. I have 2 friends that track theirs. I've spent time in both. Quite good, and unlike the elise, you can actually fit more than a toothbrush in it. And it's become collectible.

Another sports car to consider is an Honda S2K. Surprisingly docile as a commuter, reliable, tossable. It really comes alive when you push it. Jeff brings one to Carlisle every year. I'm sure you've been in it. Very addictive car.

[MinisterofDOOM]

E39 is always a valid option. Just be conscious of VANOS. Still my third favorite BMW ever (after the E38 and and E31).

Chevy SS (full sized rwd sedan + 400 hp = sleeper fun)

No way in Hell you're gonna find one (especially a manual) for under $20k.

Otherwise I'd probably already own one, despite the Malibu-Plus styling.

[nissangirl74]

How about a G?

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale ... lCode1=G35

[frapjap]

I dunno, a CTS-V is not an awful choice. They're one of the few cadillacs that don't require an AARP card. Problem is they look like the base model which does require one.

A few ideas:

Chevy SS (full sized rwd sedan + 400 hp = sleeper fun)

C6 Corvette. Z06 prices are dropping quickly. If you can tolerate the seats, it's an impressive car. You'll keep pace with pretty much everything.

Nissan 350Z/Infiniti G: I know, I'm biased, but it's a durable honest sports car that you can turn off the nannies with just one button. Though granted it's now considered a momentum car.

I know you're not into German cars, but there are some older less complex ones to be considered if you can find non-rusty examples

The SS is a neat car, but not something that screams 'fun weekend driver' to me. The Corvette definitely does, but I run into the same issue with the Trans Am- hard to enjoy when not driving at the limit. Same with the VQ engine'd twins. Lots of fun, but more speed than I need.

1994-1995.5 Audi S4/S6. The last great "over engineered" Audi, are still affordable and are beginning to appreciate. My late best friend had several and used 'em both on/off track. They're quite good on track too. His widow still has 2. I've thought about buying one of them. Fast, agile (for a big car) roomy, comfortable, reliable 5 cyl turbo with man-pedal, and not the technological terrors you think. It's also quite good in snow.

I've never considered these, but remember you praising them at Carlisle last year. I'll have to research and see how common/how much money they are to decide if they're a good fit for me and still make a cool weekend and good weather cruiser. A guy at work says he used to have one and loved it, too.

Audi Urquattro: collectible now. Think Audi coupe Quattro with better engine. I did a winter driving school gig in one. I loved it. Also made before German cars got overly complex.

older BMw 5 series, pre I-drive. Like what Brian has. Pretty bulletproof and less complicated.

Had the opportunity to buy the Ur Quattro before they were popular. But I liked my 240sx too much. That was a stupid move.

I'd advise against a Lotus. Yes it has a Toyota motor, and is a great track car. Problems include it being tiny, very little luggage room, annoying to get in/out, and poor rear visibility (exige especially). Not a car you take on an overnight trip. Most of the Elise/exige owners I know are now ex-owners. They had to trailer them to/from the track and they all pretty much agreed they were not good for much else besides track days. If you only do a few per year, it's a lotta money for track toy. If you want something that small and nimble but not a Miata, there's always the 1992 Toyota MR2 Turbo. I have 2 friends that track theirs. I've spent time in both. Quite good, and unlike the elise, you can actually fit more than a toothbrush in it. And it's become collectible.

Another sports car to consider is an Honda S2K. Surprisingly docile as a commuter, reliable, tossable. It really comes alive when you push it. Jeff brings one to Carlisle every year. I'm sure you've been in it. Very addictive car.

Yeah, no chance at a Lotus for me. The application of use would be even worse than the car I just sold.
MR2 turbos are pretty awesome, but they're a b**** to find. Theres a couple of n/a ones but for some reason the owners think they're worth as much as a clean, stock, turbo example. I've damn near given up on them.

E39 is always a valid option. Just be conscious of VANOS. Still my third favorite BMW ever (after the E38 and and E31).

I like the looks of an E39, but the prevalent and nagging coolant system problems bother me.
An 850 would be awesome, but it'd be more awesome with a less complicated engine. I'd rather the V8 model.

How about a G?

Thanks for a link. Too quick and has to be driven at too high of a limit to be enjoyed.

I am calling on a 280Z in your area though. If he's got good things to say about it and its in decent shape, it may be a contender.

[Kompresshun]

What about a BRZ/FRS/86? They're getting cheap on the used market now and they seem to be a good platform.

I'm kinda surprised you think the G is too quick. I think mine is pretty darn slow for what it is. I'd like for it to have another 100hp+ for me to feel happy with it.

[elwesso]

I would consider a 07ish 3 series, specifically a 328i. Friend of mine has one and got a chance to drive it quite a bit and I really liked it. Compared to the G I had, I liked pretty much everything about it. They're pretty reliable and not too expensive to fix, as BMW made a ton of them. I would at least go drive one, and they can be had for 7-10k with reasonable miles. Plus they get pretty dang good gas mileage too (32-35MPG). Coupe or sedan whatever your preference is, the coupe is a lot more spacious than I thought. Drop top available if desired. It really does everything pretty well, and if you wanna spend a little more coin for some serious mod-ability, go with the 335.

I wouldn't get a CTS-V. They're fragile, not that cheap to fix, and impossible to find non-abused. That's all.

[frapjap]

For what reasons should I not buy this XK8?
https://nh.craigslist.org/cto/5991082805.html

[MinisterofDOOM]

Yeah, it's an auto.

[float_6969]

I haven't looked, but what are Toyobaru twins down to in price?

[Bubba1]

For what reasons should I not buy this XK8?
https://nh.craigslist.org/cto/5991082805.html

Hmm.

Let's see, here's 14:

1. Automatic transmission (deal killer for me)
2 Unreliable. They're not POS's, but AAA membership is advised because its not a question of if you get towed but when.
3 expensive to fix. notorious electrical issues. You think the price to fix 'em goes down after 20 yrs?
4. I'll wager $9000 is not a bank breaking amount, but unfortunately that's the cheapest part of owning one.
5. 81K is not many miles for a Toyota, but can be a lot for a Jag. remember, not many Jags are used as long term daily drivers. But age is the far bigger enemy for this car, not mileage. it's a 20 yr old New England based British luxury car. Beware of corrosion and component failures due to age.
6. Depreciation: terrible. Don't expect the value to jump suddenly as Jaguar built far too many of them
7. the average age demographic of Jag owners is closer to your parents than you.
8. the 27mpg is misleading, that's the EPA highway rating. It has a tall overdrive gear, just like the corvette, but you'll only get close to that kinda figure if you drive it very conservatively on cruise control. but who drives a car like that as a hypermiler? Don't be surprised to see low to mid teens for MPG.in normal use.
9. All the features, wood dash , etc he's bragging about, were all standard equipment. It even has leather seats (gasp).
10. This is a hardtop, I thought you were a rag-top guy.
11. 300 hp was a big selling point... 20 yrs ago. Now, base model Mustangs have more than that. A "Rocket?" Uh, no. Still it was a fast car back in it's day, but there has been a horsepower war over the last 2 decades that the seller seems to have completely forgotten.
12. "Speed rated" tires? Uh, every tire has a "speed rating". Nice and vague, seller.
13. And probably most importantly, looking at Edmunds.com for his zip code, that appears to be $5100 car. He's seeking $9000. If the seller considers market price "low-balling", and you still want it, I'd suggest waiting him out until he prices it more realistically.
14. XK8's top speed is not 170. The seller is using alternative facts, probably concluding since the speedo goes up to 170, that must be the top speed. . when it was new, it's top speed was more like in the 150's. Not a slouch, but more like a 350Z. 20 yrs later, I doubt she'd top out that fast even if you had enough real estate to attempt it.

Other than the above I see no reason. .

Clearly, old XK8's are still sexy looking even after 20 years, (looking a bit like an Aston Martin helps). They're comfortable, luxurious tourers that perform/handle very well...when they run. I freely admit to enjoying the one I test drove long ago (not on track), but the automatic sapped enough fun that I declared I'd never buy one. 15-20 years later, my opinion has not changed despite their becoming so cheap to buy. But that's just my opinion. The ideal situation with any Jaaaaaag is driving it followed by handing the keys back to the owner before something breaks. Hope that helps.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

What about another Miata, 240 (maybe even pick up a modified one), NA supra, or if you're really ballsy and Lindsey has small hands, a 300zx.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Or a Focus ST/Mazdaspeed 3? Not sure where those in price.

[Jesda]

Watching this thread for ideas because my NC is an ongoing pain in the a**.

I'm considering another BMW E46 'vert. I owned one a decade ago and loved it but over time they seem to be suffering from age-related issues -- steering and suspension issues and cooling system repairs that can add up now that these cars are old. But you can row your own gears.

An XLR would cost about $1500/yr to maintain, less in some years and more in others. The pieces of the folding roof require occasional adjustment so an XLR-trained dealer would be needed. The non-supercharged versions have dependable powertrains.

Saab 9-3 is fun and comfortable but body and interior parts are hard to find and the plastics feel cheap.

Volvo C70 has potential electrical issues and numb steering.

Jag XKs have timing chain/tensioner issues.

The Mercedes CLK lacks character.

If I went with a sedan it would be the Cadillac ATS or Buick Regal GS but they are everywhere up here, more prevalent than the Toyota Camry.


Maybe I need an MSM. Ray, what else have you found?

[Bubba1]

Jesda, I know you dislike Toyota/Lexus but since you have zero track/autocross aspirations, but how about an old Lexus SC300/400? I have a friend that found/bought a nice unmolested SC300 here in the northeast. I recognize they're getting tougher to find, but they are still out there, and pretty nice.

[BusyBadger]

I'm baffled by the metrics wherein the Z/G earns such quick dismissal but an XK8 merits consideration.

[Kompresshun]

I'm baffled by the metrics wherein the Z/G earns such quick dismissal but an XK8 merits consideration.

^THIS.

Don't get me wrong, I always have been a sucker for Jags, but the logic here doesn't make much sense unless you just hate the 350Z/370Z/G35/G37/Q60.

[Jesda]

Jesda, I know you dislike Toyota/Lexus but since you have zero track/autocross aspirations, but how about an old Lexus SC300/400? I have a friend that found/bought a nice unmolested SC300 here in the northeast. I recognize they're getting tougher to find, but they are still out there, and pretty nice.

The roof is fixed... unless I grab a saw.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I agree and disagree with the above sentiments on the XK8 vs Z. The XK is a needier car, but it's also in a while different class of performance as well as luxury, especially if you get an XKR. Plus, the AJ sounds infinitely better than the VQ. Especially S/C variant from R models. BUT, as far as overall ownership, the two come out about equal once their individual strengths and weaknesses are tallied.

I'm among the rare few who really doesn't care for the styling of early convertible XK8s. The rear end was dumpy, the nose was blah, and they don't really have any shape with the top down. The later Callum-retouched models tightened up the a** and sharpened up the nose a lot, and the coupe adds an elegant roofline, but it's a car I'd buy for the powertrain and chassis, not for its looks. Of course, I feel generally the same about the Z, but I think I actually like the Z34 better aesthetically (Z33s are meh). I wouldn't really hang a poster of either on my wall though (except maybe a later XK-RS).

There are things I like about SC400s and things I hate about them. Like all Lexuses, they have a nice silhouette but boring details. Like all Toyota V8s until the last couple of years, they have a stupid timing belt to fark with (and it's probably just about time for the second belt to be replaced on most of them). They do have really nice interiors, though, and they sound nice and I hear they're fantastic comfortable cruisers (never been behind the wheel, so I can't speak to that personally).

[BusyBadger]

...but it's also in a while different class of performance as well as luxury, especially if you get an XKR.

This is from an old 2008 C&D article, I couldn't find the original but oddly enough I found a copy/paste version on a Cherokee SRT8 site.

[ Vehicle Issue Date Price as Tested Acceleration 0-60/ Quarter-Mile (sec) / Top Speed (mph) / Braking 70-0 mph (feet) Roadholding, (g) / EPA MPG (city / hwy) ]

Jaguar XK 8 $85,200 / 6.0 /14.7 /155* /163 / 0.87 / 16 25

Nissan 350Z $28,515 / 5.2 /13.7 /156* / 169 / 0.93 / 18 25

I'm failing to see the "whole different class of performance" here, though I was surprised the far heavier XK had a better braking distance than the (by comparison) sprightly Z. If I was more curious I'd check and see what the OEM on each model was, doubtless the Z was on some craptastic Bridgestone (probably the RE050), a switch to the sticky S04 Pole Positions would haul the Z down faster, RE11s faster still.

Here's the numbers on the force-fed Jag, certainly better than the Z but not as dominating as they ought to be looking at the price as tested, but the same can be said for the standard XK as well.

Jaguar XKR $93,700 / 4.5 /13.0 / 160 /163 / 0.89 / 15 23

The luxury part when new is a given, even with the improvements of the later 350Zs over the Rubbermaid interior of the early ones it shouldn't even be close here. Long term it's a little more murky, C&D's long term XK review had complaints about trim pieces coming loose. A car ten years old is likely to have that in spades.

A quick cars.com search for XKs that were in Ray's specified 20k or less limit had me looking at 2007 & 2008 models. A Z of that age & price (and all other things being equal far fewer miles as well) has 6 more horses, a minimum of 100 fewer pounds (could be even more depending on trim) and can be had in a manual. This is, of course, the non-supercharged XK. The XKR brings more horses to the table. I did actually see a few in the $20k neighbourhood, though I'd be hard pressed to buy one in that range; forced induction, high miles, Jaguar...talk about playing Russian Roulette with three bullets in the cylinder. I'd want to come in well under that $20K to pay for the inevitable repairs.

Here's the thing though, if the performance of the XK was that superior I'm wondering why Ray would want it given that he'd already stated a Z was out because of the high limits and the lengths he'd have to go to to really enjoy it. But it's not really superior and I'd be concerned about the long term reliability as well. Of all those testing numbers I posted up the one that's probably most germane to Ray's search for a fun car is that skidpad number, and there the Z wins handily.

Last thing, that $20k limit buys the newer (and higher performing ) 370Z and it could also snag a significantly more adult Infiniti G37S. As much as I b**** about Nissan and what they're doing (and not doing), I can still appreciate a few of their offerings and see where they fit in the marketplace.

[MinisterofDOOM]

You can easily find an XKR for $20k, and it'll blow the socks off a Z with 4 cylinders tied behind its back. 4.3 seconds to 60, if that's our metric.

[BusyBadger]

[MinisterofDOOM]

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra?

[PapaSmurf2k3]

.talk about playing Russian Roulette with three bullets in the cylinder.