What path to walk down?

[matt0941]

:squint <--- me after looking on the forums for the past 3 hours. Ok so I have been searching/researching for quite some time and have just come up with a couple of questions that fit MY situation. First of all, I am purchasing a '97 240SX with a KA24DE. I plan on turboing the KA24DE and using the car as a daily driver, but I would like to be in the 12 second range (for the sake of the question, we'll say i'm a good driver). First of all, generally what HP/Torque range must I be in to reach such times in a 5-spd (350ish?). And I know that I would not mind doing motor work, crankshaft, cams, rods, re-sleeving, port/polish the motor while I install the turbo in order to handle 10+ psi. So what path is most commonly walked when trying to reach my goal in the case of motor work. Thanks for the advice (AND NOT :flamer !) in advance, also any links that you think would help me (besides the FAQ here) would also be appreciated.

P.S. I know to upgrade my fuel management system when going turbo.

[WDRacing]

I think that is the best phrased question I've read on thses forums yet...good job. I'm going out at the moment, but I'll give you a good response when I get back.

WD

You could read up on my thread about 650+ KADET's. There is alot of good info on there. You just have to decide how much stuff needs to be done. For 12's your looking at 400 or so at the wheels.

[matt0941]

Thanks . After reading alot of garbage on these forums (just the way people talk and phrase questions) things tend to be extremely general and hard to answer, I try to say stuff simply and precise. And yes I just finished reading up on that thread, but that was a bit extreme for what I was thinking (i.e. 30 PSI + Alcohol) hehe. But I am definately willing to do internal work, and look forward to your opinion WD seeing as how you have worked with many motors before. Oh yea and I forgot to add, do that many people tend to re-sleeve low mileage motors like the one I will be getting (14k) or not due to the fact that it is an iron block and can handle the boost.

[WDRacing]

I don't think the KA will accept sleeves do to the clearence between cylinders. But the block is iron and should take quite a bit of abuse.

For starters, I believe alot of the performance is chosing the right turbine. I prefer as little lag as possible and with the KA having such a early readline, just over 7000, you'll want boost as early as you can get it. I would suggest the GT3037. It's expensive but worth the money in my eyes.

The next thing would have to be attention to the internals. With a set of forged rods and pistons from JE( my personal favorite) you should be just fine. I would go with 8.1/1 compression on the pistons. The crank should be fine if your not going over 7500 rpm.

The next thing to get my attention would be the I/H/E. I would have them all sent to Extrude Hone and ported/gasket matched. Once that is done, you'll need a metal head gasket to fasten it to the block. I would also use ARP fasteners everywhere possible.

The next step is one that a budget will have to decide. Which standalone system you want. There are quite a few decent ones on the market, I like Haltech.

The rest of the setup is all tuning. You'll need to have the right injectors depending on hp output. Probably 550's...I'd also suggest some ignition stuff from MSD. Again there is a ton of stuff to pick.

Don't rule out alcohol injection. I have a standalone sytem on my Skyline. I was able to run an additional 8 psi for an additional 92 hp at the wheels with my kit. It's worth looking into anyway. I recommend it to everyone.

Well that should get you started anyway...

WD

[matt0941]

Sounds good, but what determines the need for a standalone system, and I know that you said that you liked haltech but in your other post I thought you were going with the M4?

[WDRacing]

I've got a year till I get back to the states, so I'm still doing research. Right now I'm leaning towards the E11 setup. Plus like I said, Haltech has good customer service.

As far as determinig when to go with a standalone goes, there are a few things I go by. Over 350 hp your gonna start to run into the MAF being to restrictive. Which will req you going to a speed density setup. You could go through HKS and use the VPC, but that alone is 800 bucks.

You could get the ECU tuned by JWT, but I hate retunes. You'll have to make constant changes in AF ratio's while tuning. I don't think you want to send your hole car over to JW to tune for you.

Or you could go with the HKS SAFR, piggy back computer. I like the HKS better then the SAFC from Apexi. This will work if your on a bugdet. I've seen plenty of 400hp cars running with piggybacks installed. Just do yourself the favor and use the dyno when tuning, no matter which system you choose.

Just some info, I was actually going to build my super motor with the HKS SAFR just to prove it could be done. But The standalones offer so many more features. At the boost level I want to run, things like knock retard and a custom timing map become pretty good things to have.

WD

[matt0941]

As far as determinig when to go with a standalone goes, there are a few things I go by. Over 350 hp your gonna start to run into the MAF being to restrictive. Which will req you going to a speed density setup. You could go through HKS and use the VPC, but that alone is 800 bucks.

WD

Could you clarify for me please? I am not a mechanic and this will be my first time modifying an import car.

[WDRacing]

Hahahaha, sorry Matt,

The Mass Airflow Sensor in what tells your ecu how much air your engine is ingesting. Its located somewhere between the intake filter and the turbo. Usually just behind the filter.

When you switch over to a speed density system, your going off of absolute manifold pressure instead. I believe all Mustangs used to come with speed density, if that helps at all.

That way you can get rid of the MAF sensor all together. The HKS VPC(Vein Pressure Converter) is just one way of doing this. But I would chose a standalone instead.

Try going to SDS's website, or Haltech. They have some good info on there as well.

If that doesn't clear things up, just tell me.

WD

[matt0941]

So basically you are switching from your car knowing how much air your turbo is pushing in (which can have problems) to how much pressure is actually in the combustion chamber? And do the turbos like FMAX and NSPORT come with a MAS that they hook up to your ECU? My mind is about to explode btw.

[WDRacing]

If I were you I would just stick with MAF. Your car already has one attached. I'm not sure how well the stock one handles boost though. I believe alot of people are using one from a Mustang. But but will req an ecu rewrite. You might want to ask that question, about the stock MAF sensor and how it does with boost.

Sorry I don't have all the answers. I've mostly only researched things on the expensive end. I'll be using a standalone. But my goals are alot different.

WD

[TrueSlide]

I also hear the z32 MAF will fit on the 240sx without a ECU upgrade, Iam not completley sure. WD everytime I hear you speak on the KA, it inspires me to want to go KA-T. It is probley what I will do if I can ever find a Ebook FSM about the DE. But I think there are threads about the Z maf hookup somewhere on here, might be something worth checking out.

[matt0941]

Thanks for the info guys, but onto my actual plans... Ok the car that I plan on purchasing is a '97 240SX Auto. I want to convert it to manual and Dauntless told me that he could do it for a fairly low price, as long as he would have to pull the engine.

Quote »From his website:IE, if you are having a SR20 swap done on your auto 240, we will perform the swap, however, if you just want us to swap we will be unable accommodate you due to time and labor constraints.

[/quote]Because if he just swapped out auto>manual trannies all the time for a cheap price it would be hassle and not that profitable, so I see where he is coming from. But alot of the stuff suggested to me: I/H/E, Cams, Turbo, Port/Polish, Standalone System, etc. in order to acheive 350+ Hp and hopefully 12 second 1/4 miles, out of all of that; what actually requires the engine to be pulled? Because I don't want to have Dauntless do alot of work on the engine and find out he never had to pull it so I will be stuck with auto, see what I am saying? Thanks, Matt.

[C-Kwik]

If I were you I would just stick with MAF. Your car already has one attached. I'm not sure how well the stock one handles boost though. I believe alot of people are using one from a Mustang. But but will req an ecu rewrite. You might want to ask that question, about the stock MAF sensor and how it does with boost.

Sorry I don't have all the answers. I've mostly only researched things on the expensive end. I'll be using a standalone. But my goals are alot different.

WD

According to JWT, the stock S14 MAF maxes out at about 260 WHP. And as far as the coment about constantly adjusting A/F ratios, the JWT program is a universal program. It's a bit on the safe side since it is designed to work with different typeds of turbo set-ups. They can do a more comprehensive tune for you if you want, but is best done on a dyno. You could try and guess at what you need by running on a dyno and datalogging, but it's about $150 for each retune and could save you money in the long run if you are able to take it to them for a dyno tuning session. Another option might be to piggy-back the JWT ECU or even the factory ECU. Most have limitations to injector size though. I'm going to try out the E-Manage with 370 injectors and when I get enough for the 550 cc injectors and the JWT program, then I will use the E-Manage to fine tune that. The E-Manage is limited to 50% over stock injector size so I can't just step right up to the 550's.

[matt0941]

Ok now I am a bit confused, but what does piggy-backing mean?

[C-Kwik]

There are generally two types of aftermarket engine management systems. A full standalone that controls all aspects of the engine entirely. Then there are piggy-back systems that intercept signals sent to and from the factory ECU and modify them to modify how the motor runs.

[matt0941]

Ok makes sense, and the motec and haltech are full stand alone systems, while the A'pexi S-AFS is a piggy back system?

[WDRacing]

I've seen the SAFC trim down 720's on a CA18DET, it even idles ok if you believe that. But he eventually went with SDS. But a piggy back will work.

Hey C-Kwik, what MAF's are you guys upgrading to when the stock one runs out of voltage?

WD

[nismorcr240]

Im new to this site, but here's my advice with the experience that i have with the KA. The ka is known to be a little weak under boost from what i have seen. The stock compression is not very high, (which makes room for tuning if youre going all motor) but even so, it will not hold boost without either blowing your head or a ring. I saw a single cam built with stand alone, and every bolt on imaginable running 12psi and he still blew it up. Why, i dont know..but ive been told that the KA is not suitable for higher boost levels. If youre going to run some low boost like 6psi..on stock internals..no changes to fuel mapping at all..then thats pretty much okay. But turboing the ka is alot of work. Needless to say youd have to remove the distributor because the manifold wont fit with it there...which of course means stand alone. Which is not cheap. I plan to go the easy and popular route with an sr20. Dont get me wrong..ive had my share of fun with the KA..shes ben built pretty good, but you just cant get the right amount of power without boosting it. If you have the fubnds to boost a ka you have the funs to purchase and install an SR20...thats my whole point i guess..less headache..less worrying, and more time to bolt on all those goodies that come readily available for the sr20 and NOT the KA. hope i was helpful...nismo out.

[WDRacing]

Hmm, being in Japan, I see my fair share of SR20DET's rolling the streets. Its a good engine don't get me wrong. You can rev the hell out of it. But I love torque and the KA makes great lowend torque.

The KA24DE can hold 15psi on stock internals. You just have to make sure you don't have any detonation. Detonation is THE KILLER of forced induction cars.

If you manage to blow up a motor at 12 psi with a low CR like 9.5/1 then your doing somthing very wrong.

For the money you use installing and tuning the SR20 to make power, I can have your KA running circles around it. After all, the KA is already in your car. You just need to add fuel and boost.

Stay focused on your goals Matt, thats one thing I've learned.

WD

[S13Ka24e]

Needless to say youd have to remove the distributor because the manifold wont fit with it there...which of course means stand alone.

You don't have to move the distributor. The piping doesn't interfer with too much on the Ka.

[ST240]

Hey WD,

do you _HAVE_ to run a stand-alone fuel management system at 12psi? or is there anyway around it.

Also how much of a deal is having an equal lenth mani?

[cnichols]

Hey WD,

do you _HAVE_ to run a stand-alone fuel management system at 12psi? or is there anyway around it.

Also how much of a deal is having an equal lenth mani?

Finding an equal length manifold for the KA is pretty tough unless you got or someone you know can fabricate one.

The manifold on my KA when I bought it was NOT equal length and the cylinder that had the unequal runner was the cylinder that had bad compression. May have been a coincidence, but I think that had a lot to do with that cylinder going bad whether the valves or detonation got it...don't know because I bought it that way.

[TrunkMonkey]

an equal length manifold is not something i'd worry about. almost all of the high powered KAs are using log manifolds.

-demetrius

[WDRacing]

ST240, 12 psi isn't anything a piggyback can't help you handle. It really depends on the size of fuel injector. Running 12 psi is fairly low, I'd say a set of 440cc injectors will work with that. The HKS SAFR or the SAFC can more then handle the trim work on those.

True...you don't really need an equal length header. I had a log style on my Skyline that worked just fine. If I were using a huge turbine and needed everything just right to get all the spool I could, then I would use an equal length.

WD

[matt0941]

Hey WD, the turbo that you suggested to me for the KA (the HKS GT3037), I can't find any kits for it anywhere, could you post any information that you have on it whatsoever? And if the links don't show it... about how much HP would you estimate that certain kit to produce? Thanks.

[WDRacing]

I believe you'd have to get a manifold from one place and get the turbo itself from HKS. I'm not sure if Turbonetics makes a 3037.

The 3037 should be good for 500 hp with a very good spool time. That is if you get the ball bearing type. I wouldn't recommend anything else. I'm pretty sure the 3037 has a T3 flange. I'll have to look...

WD

[ST240]

Thanks WD, yer a great help.

Im basically gonna be doing boneyard boost :rolleyes just so i can have something fun while i go to university then after that ill buy a CA and get serious haha.

Would a used/rebuilt t3 or t3/t4 for say 10-11 psi _maxium_ be suitable?

-Andre

[WDRacing]

I've always wanted to drop in a 3.8 from a GNX myself...I love traction problems.

WD

[stuofsci02]

I have enjoyed reading this thread, but Matt.... You have to change your little thumnail picture. It gives me the creeps everytime I see it.

[matt0941]

Ahaha, I was wondering when someone would pick up on that. It used to be a skyline but then I changed it to that after this trip to Devil's Head, WI (a ski resort). We got this lodge and were joking the whole time about how there are axe murderers and talking about The Ring just to screw with eachother. But then my asian friend (pointless information) took a black and white photo of me telling me to do some wierd pose. So I got the photos back from him and made it into my avatar... so that's the story.

On topic though: WD when you were talking about the 3037 from HKS (right?), does it actually come as an entire kit, or just the turbo alone and I have to build the kit?