What is your thoughts on this ? Ebay junk, Or legit Performance Part

[uvamosk]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...QrdZ1

Says it works... But let you guys be the judge of that !!

[hazw8st]

If it is a functional windage tray, it is good. It supposed to keep oil off of the crankshaft and reduce parasitic internal friction.

[uvamosk]

So thats 1 vote for its good.. and not junk

[Chezedik]

Yeah, looks real. And windage trays are something the NA guys have been using for a while. The real reason we don't use it is because we are not usually reaching for every single HP we can get, but maybe we should.

[hazw8st]

I would look at his feedback, and if you think you need the extra 7 hp....go for it!

[KATwo40]

According to common ricer math, this is useless. Why in the world would you use a device that's been proven for decades on domestic drag cars ranging from small town privateers to top fuel racers, like Don Garlitz, Shirly Muldowny, John Force, etc?

Now, on a serious note:

The horsepower gain isn't the real focal point. It's a way to keep oil in the bottom of the pan, available to the sump, reducing the chance of oil starvation at high RPM. We all know that the KA is very prone to bearing trouble when operating in the high RPM range extensively. This would be a way to counter that problem.

I recently suggested this very device (not knowing about the Ebay product) on Fresh Alloy and pretty much everyone shunned me and said that it was the stupidest idea ever. They assured me that it's "too hard to make, with tolerances in the thousandths of an inch." They also suggested that it wouldn't really work, even though I cited many proven NHRA and IHRA examples.

Some people never learn.

So, to answer your post, yes, it's a VERY good investment.

[S-13KA]

KATwo40 nailed it......these have been in use for many decades in all forms of street and racing circles.

[nismofly]

if it gains 7hp for $70, and like you said its more for oil flow/availability than hp

id say its perfectly worth it

[Nismo_Freak]

I doubt there is 7 HP worth of windage on a modern 4 cyl.

Most of the big gains in windage moderation is in the older V8's that do not have windage control devices.

[KATwo40]

I doubt there is 7 HP worth of windage on a modern 4 cyl.

Most of the big gains in windage moderation is in the older V8's that do not have windage control devices.

What windage control device does the KA have? I know my DOHC has diddly-squat for windage control, when compared to an actual windage tray.

Yes, I agree that there's probably more like 2.5-3hp to be gained, but as I stated already, the focus of the tray is not hp gain, but rather oil starvation prevention.

[Chezedik]

None, and you are right. But you must realize the forces at work inside of a motor are mysterious. I would be willing to believe 7hp to think that it is a product of how the system operates.

[uvamosk]

So should I buy this one of ebay or can you give me a website to buy one from?

[kings_blend]

this was also covered on ka-t.orghttp://www.ka-t.org/forums/vie...+tray

[Nismo_Freak]

What windage control device does the KA have? I know my DOHC has diddly-squat for windage control, when compared to an actual windage tray.

Yes, I agree that there's probably more like 2.5-3hp to be gained, but as I stated already, the focus of the tray is not hp gain, but rather oil starvation prevention.

The KA has a 4 counterweight crankshaft that doesn't spin very quickly.

The SR has a 8 counterweight crankshaft that spins about 1000 RPM higher.

I doubt the KA requires such a large windage control system, besides the windage tray could even hinder oil accumulation by introducing a barrier between the airated oil and the piston squirters. I haven't given much thought to the geometry of the system but it's something that came to mind.

[BlackFlag_s13]

I recently suggested this very device (not knowing about the Ebay product) on Fresh Alloy and pretty much everyone shunned me and said that it was the stupidest idea ever. They assured me that it's "too hard to make, with tolerances in the thousandths of an inch." They also suggested that it wouldn't really work, even though I cited many proven NHRA and IHRA examples.

Some people never learn.

So, to answer your post, yes, it's a VERY good investment.

I remember that. Well this definately shows them

[fiznat]

What a waste of money and time. Look at it this way:

1. You are 99.9999999% likely to not even come close to a 7hp gain.2. Even if you did get 7 horses (and you wont), you'll never notice it. 3. Again, assuming you get 7 horses, the price/hp ratio sucks!4. $70 is MUCH better spent elsewhere on the car.5. I will never ever buy anything from ebay that goes in my oil pan, THAT close to my crank.6. You cant nickle and dime horsepower like that. If you want a powerful car, its going to cost you money. Plain and simple.7. Your car is NOT a full race every-second-counts precision motor. It doesnt make sense to spend this kind of money on details when the big stuff is still out of wack. Is your crank race-balanced? 8. Did I mention you will never see any kind of gain?

Dont do it.

[eddiec]

the dohc already has a small tray in the bottom of the pan. its easy to miss becuase its not in your face like that above.

[KATwo40]

The KA has a 4 counterweight crankshaft that doesn't spin very quickly.

The SR has a 8 counterweight crankshaft that spins about 1000 RPM higher.

I doubt the KA requires such a large windage control system, besides the windage tray could even hinder oil accumulation by introducing a barrier between the airated oil and the piston squirters. I haven't given much thought to the geometry of the system but it's something that came to mind.

Number one cause of bearing failure in the high RPM range on the KADE is oil starvation. This has been documented time and time again. Yes, counterbalancing is what gains more RPM on this motor, but still, oil starvation occurs with too much time spent in the 6k+ range.

As for the barrier, you might be onto something there. However, it could easily be solved with some carefully placed drain holes in the windage tray to allow the oil to fall down.

I think the windage tray isn't so much the good side of this product, but rather the crank flaps, since, as mentioned, the KA oil pan already has a pretty decent baffle in the pan to disturb the windage.

[KATwo40]

What a waste of money and time. Look at it this way:

1. You are 99.9999999% likely to not even come close to a 7hp gain.2. Even if you did get 7 horses (and you wont), you'll never notice it. 3. Again, assuming you get 7 horses, the price/hp ratio sucks!4. $70 is MUCH better spent elsewhere on the car.5. I will never ever buy anything from ebay that goes in my oil pan, THAT close to my crank.6. You cant nickle and dime horsepower like that. If you want a powerful car, its going to cost you money. Plain and simple.7. Your car is NOT a full race every-second-counts precision motor. It doesnt make sense to spend this kind of money on details when the big stuff is still out of wack. Is your crank race-balanced? 8. Did I mention you will never see any kind of gain?

Dont do it.

Again, it's wrongly advertised. The hp gain is insignificant. The real gain is oil shearing.

[Nismo_Freak]

Number one cause of bearing failure in the high RPM range on the KADE is oil starvation. This has been documented time and time again. Yes, counterbalancing is what gains more RPM on this motor, but still, oil starvation occurs with too much time spent in the 6k+ range.

As for the barrier, you might be onto something there. However, it could easily be solved with some carefully placed drain holes in the windage tray to allow the oil to fall down.

I think the windage tray isn't so much the good side of this product, but rather the crank flaps, since, as mentioned, the KA oil pan already has a pretty decent baffle in the pan to disturb the windage.

Ugh you completely did not understand my point.

Windage is created by a displacement of the air by the reciprocating mass. The SR engine has the same basic layout as far as the oil pan and crankshaft are concerned and runs 3.8 qts. of oil.

Now, the SR has 8 counterweights, meaning the crankshaft has possibly more mass, albeit in a tighter circle, it still will displace the same if not more air within the crankcase.

How is it that it is such a large issue for the KA, and not for the SR? I think you are taking an issue from context and applying it to whatever comes at you.

The real problem most of the KA bearing failures have is the fact that people are driving the hell out of engines with 100,000+ miles on them. Oil pressure might even be fine on the engines but the build-up of gunk from overheating oil, lags in changes, oil quality, etc. add up to high pressure, low flow. Work that toward a relatively big bearing surface that has high peak acceleration (read friction) and you get a motor that likes to eat bearings.

Design problem? I think not.

Take a survey of who actually has working, accurate oil pressure and oil temp gauges and knows what is normal for an engine. You will find that maybe 10% of the people on this forum have that capacity.

[KATwo40]

Ugh you completely did not understand my point.

Windage is created by a displacement of the air by the reciprocating mass. The SR engine has the same basic layout as far as the oil pan and crankshaft are concerned and runs 3.8 qts. of oil.

Now, the SR has 8 counterweights, meaning the crankshaft has possibly more mass, albeit in a tighter circle, it still will displace the same if not more air within the crankcase.

How is it that it is such a large issue for the KA, and not for the SR? I think you are taking an issue from context and applying it to whatever comes at you.

The real problem most of the KA bearing failures have is the fact that people are driving the hell out of engines with 100,000+ miles on them. Oil pressure might even be fine on the engines but the build-up of gunk from overheating oil, lags in changes, oil quality, etc. add up to high pressure, low flow. Work that toward a relatively big bearing surface that has high peak acceleration (read friction) and you get a motor that likes to eat bearings.

Design problem? I think not.

Take a survey of who actually has working, accurate oil pressure and oil temp gauges and knows what is normal for an engine. You will find that maybe 10% of the people on this forum have that capacity.

Why do you defend the OEM design so intently? I'm not saying that the KA is a bad motor. I love mine. I'm just pointing out that the KA has been documented time and time again to spin bearings when running high RPM. Most of this happens in driving courses that have long sweeping high speed turns, resulting in extended duration high latteral G's. This makes the oil sling out of the sump area, away from the pickup tube. If the oil is not in the sump area, it's either up the side of the pan wall, or being whipped around by the crank counterweights as they dip through it (the other form of "windage").

The SR aftermarket support provides a few oil pans with windage baffles and deep sump designs to combat this problem. Currently, KA oil pans that solve this are slim and none.

So, why not spend $70 on a KNOWN AND PROVEN device to cure the problem, rather than spend double that or more for a custom deep sump pan?

But then again, the import scene does require re-inventing the wheel, the car, the engine and making certain to spend three times as much money to do so.

[NateDogg]

What a waste of money and time. Look at it this way:

1. You are 99.9999999% likely to not even come close to a 7hp gain.2. Even if you did get 7 horses (and you wont), you'll never notice it. 3. Again, assuming you get 7 horses, the price/hp ratio sucks!4. $70 is MUCH better spent elsewhere on the car.5. I will never ever buy anything from ebay that goes in my oil pan, THAT close to my crank.6. You cant nickle and dime horsepower like that. If you want a powerful car, its going to cost you money. Plain and simple.7. Your car is NOT a full race every-second-counts precision motor. It doesnt make sense to spend this kind of money on details when the big stuff is still out of wack. Is your crank race-balanced? 8. Did I mention you will never see any kind of gain?

Dont do it.

First off, forgive me if you're being sarcastic. But you didn't indicate that anywhere so I'm going to assume you are being serious.

1. How do you know it wont provide any gains? Sounds like a troll.2. Kind of interesting point coming from a guy that spent $2500 on EMS and tuning when you coulda had similar results with a JWT or Enthalpy ECU for 1/6 the price. Since when didn't the average 'tuner' want to have a leg up on the 'other guy'. Isn't that what this hobby is all about? Trying new parts and methods and seeing if they work?3. $10/hp is better than anything I can think of. Not even a lightweight crank pulley can match that. Are you serious or should I continue..4. Like where? Redline motor oil?5. If you have such a closed mind about parts from ebay, you shouldn't be on the intranet. If you did some research, you would see that these guys have been in business for a long time, with many applications that have been successful.6. Are you now saying this product is cheap when you previously said it was a rip off in terms of $/hp?7. Since when was $70 a lot of money when its common to spend $3000 on a turbo setup. It's inconsequential.8. Maybe if you weren't so close-minded and actually provided some data or dare I say proof to your comments people give your post some consideration.

I dont think you're giving this product a hard enough look. It's easy to say its a POS and waste of money but come on, I know you can do better than that.

[chmercer]

i doubt he is being sarcastic.

if you put a cone filter on your car, you wont feel it. same with this thing (assuming that it does actually work well, which is iffy considering it is a sub 100 dollar piece from ebay). I would be very suprised if this thing made any power at all.

this piece feels similar to putting inconel exhaust valves on a stock motor.

edit - if you look through the links you will see that the 7hp was on a pt cruiser motor? gay. plus the car was on a dyno, if it was driving around it would be sloshing the oil even worse, further reducing the gains.

IMHO

[dj_hype]

personally, I think this would be good for a drift car because it helps with oil starvation. constant high RPM driving with strange and quickly shifting lateral g forces cause oil starvation. seems logical that this would be a good solution.

dirt track racing is huge where i live and every single one of those cars has windage trays. not for hp gains, but to help with oil starvation. thats just my $.02.

[KATwo40]

personally, I think this would be good for a drift car because it helps with oil starvation. constant high RPM driving with strange and quickly shifting lateral g forces cause oil starvation. seems logical that this would be a good solution.

dirt track racing is huge where i live and every single one of those cars has windage trays. not for hp gains, but to help with oil starvation. thats just my $.02.

NO WAY!!! You mean, it actually might be a good thing? Even though it's been raceproven for about 30 years by the NHRA guys??? UNPOSSIBLE.

J/K man. Thanks for tossin' in your vote.

[ArticDragon192]

Here's another thread on scrapers and trays.http://www.club240.com/forums/...+tray

[Bauholzwolf]

Yeah, looks real. And windage trays are something the NA guys have been using for a while. The real reason we don't use it is because we are not usually reaching for every single HP we can get, but maybe we should.

That should be the goal of all those who call themselves "tuners."
Modified by Bauholzwolf at 6:35 PM 2/16/2006

[Kevin Johnson]

i doubt he is being sarcastic.

if you put a cone filter on your car, you wont feel it. same with this thing (assuming that it does actually work well, which is iffy considering it is a sub 100 dollar piece from ebay). I would be very suprised if this thing made any power at all.

this piece feels similar to putting inconel exhaust valves on a stock motor.

edit - if you look through the links you will see that the 7hp was on a pt cruiser motor? gay. plus the car was on a dyno, if it was driving around it would be sloshing the oil even worse, further reducing the gains.

IMHO

Hi,

I am the guy who makes the infamous eBay scrapers and trays. BTW, we use eBay because it is an easy way for a small business to get started. We now get a lot more business from our distributors, magazine ads and word-of-mouth but you have to start somewhere.

People that critique these items (in general terms) are showing that they are not familiar with the history of oil control in Nissan engines, at the least. Nissan is now one of the biggest oem users of "scraper" technology. Compare the L20B or older Roadster pans to the KA24DE pan, for example. On our website we have a quote from a recent GM patent that plainly refers to oil scrapers for windage control -- this is considered general knowledge in professional automotive engineering circles.

I can understand you don't like the SRT4 engine -- no problem. The point is that the testing was independently done in a dyno cell at an OEM level. It controlled the ambient conditions rather than having to use an extensive series of correction algorithms. They scrapped a day of testing because it was raining and it was too difficult to control the humidity in the cell, for example. The cell would register the effect of you walking through the room -- it held the air temp to plus or minus one degree. This is at least an order of magnitude more sophisticated than strapping your car onto a set of rollers.

Lastly, in a moving vehicle the percentage returns/gains would be higher not lower. Think about that.

[Kevin Johnson]

That should be the goal of all those who call themselves "tuners."

Modified by Bauholzwolf at 6:35 PM 2/16/2006

Yes.

Also, windage trays are even more important in forced induction engines. A couple oem examples: the tray used in the supercharged 4AGZE Toyota engine but not in the NA version and the crank scraper incorporated in the gasket of the SRT4 2.4 but not in the NA version.

Forced induction engines have a higher amount of blowby in the crankcase and this provides more atmosphere for windage effects. Also, cooling the pistons efficiently is more critical and allowing uncontrolled windage heats up the oil -- this makes for a poor cooling medium.

[dontbugme]

People are throwing around a lot of terms that are intermixed. An oil scrapper is not a windage tray. Scrapers usualy cover almost the whole sump from the crank throws, with louvers to drain the oil back, to prevent oil being slung by the throws. Windage trays are in the sump and usually incorporate swing type check valves and baffles, left to right and fore and aft, that hold the oil in the vicinity of the pickup tube during hard g's. Scrappers are suposed to reduce friction from slinging oil around, windage trays prevent oil starvation under high high G's

Windage trays don't free up any Hp and scrappers would help a miniscule amount especially since some of the Nissan's have oil squirters and there's a lot of oil being sloshed around.

Regarding spun bearings at high rpms, if you look at th e crank and the way the rod bearings are fed their oil through the drilled passages, you have to wonder if the crank doesn'tr act like a pump, slinging the oil out before it gets to the bearings due to centrifigal, centripital or whatever the physics geniuses are calling it nowadays. There's a lot of theoretical speculation about this - who knows?f

You want a couple more Hp and aren't autoxing it? Leave out a quart of oil on the next refill, probably do the same thing as that scrapper.