What if I install turbos on my Q?

[sijoko]

For those of you that are thinking of turbocharging your Q45s, check out the link:

http://www.clublexus.com/forum...59118

What do you think? I think I will wait for the B.A.D. supercharger setup.

-sijoko

[Mayhem_J30]

I think you'll be waiting for a VERY long time. As far as I know B.A.D. put the word out on a lot of products, but they never surfaced.

[PalmerWMD]

I think it will come and soon.

I am getting my diff from them as soon as I have this pesky body work done.They were ready ro send me one, when my fender bender put that on hold.

Fred...

[Chally]

Wouldn't want to hit a speed hump!

Same with AGM's Q45, they looked at Turbo, but there was no sensible place to put them. You'd have to put them underneath like this project, & getting the intake pipe back to the engine...?

[PalmerWMD]

HMM, I always wondered what the Q would look like with a hood scoop.

Fred...

[AGM]

It is interesting to note that they ran into the same problem as me with the intercooler and opted for water injection as a compromise.

I have only been using water injection.

The system can use a water/ methanol mix but my installer is not a big fan of Methanol.

Can anyone give me the run down on the advantages of a water/methanol mix.

Regards

AGM

[Q45tech]

Methanol will attack the elastomers and aluminum, why not use isopropyl alcohol [rubbing alcohol/ some forms of dry gas {read the label}] as it already contains 30%/5% water or ethanol [vodka].....both are easier on system than methanol.Denatured ethyl alcohol has a few posions plus methanol in small quanities.

What is the full load [highest] input temperature to the throttle body during water injection?

[Q45tech]

The reason the AF ratio is richer [up to 33%] than 14.7 during acceleration is to cool the combustion chambers and change the flame speed so water can accomplish the same thing as long as you limit the volume to 10-15% of the gasoline quanity.

Pretty wasteful of gasoline to just pour extra unburned thru the system for cooling!........but that's the American way.......water injection seems complicated but assumming you have a 2 gallon tank.

[Q45tech]

What if you used a small 8-20HP auxillary motor to spin the supercharger.I still like the idea of using the AC system to chill water then use a small water to air intercooler like the Jag, Cobra, MB do currently but with an extra radiator.

[sijoko]

AGM, are you currently running a supercharger setup? If so, what kind of power gains have you seen?

-sijoko

[Sopdadope]

sijoko, AGM posted his supercharger setup about a month or so ago, go do a search. A single turbo setup would be less of a hassle than a TT setup but obviously there's the emissions problems and tampering with the cats. But relocate the battery to the back and put the turbo in it's place, that'd work.

[AGM]

I saw a water to air intercooler being fitted to a 1000 Hp VL Commodore the other day. (At least Chally will now what this car is).

Again they were restricted on were to put the Intercooler.

The resivouir tank had a wider mouth than usual so that blocks of ice could be put in the water.

Sounds like a good idea for short runs.

I'm interested to see how long the water stays chilled before it becomes just cool due to the small intercooler.

Q45tech,

I agree that using a small auxillary motor to spin the Supercharger would be a good idea, as it would allow the ultimate boost control.

I have a spare electric water pump (with variable speed control)that might do the trick if I repalce the impeller with a pulley.

You could play around with different boost and timing parameters.

For example, you could run a constant boost level of 6psi from idle to WOT or you could run 6psi at idle, tapering off to say 4psi at WOT.

At the moment when I quote 6psi boost it is at WOT whereas I want it at idle. If I ran 6psi at idle it would be dangerously high at WOT.

I think I will find a intercooler solution before I play around with alternatives on driving the Supercharger.

Q45tech, is there a particular model jag that has the AC assisted water intercooler you are referring to that I could just buy rather than starting from scratch on my own design.

I will come back to you on the intake temp as well as the exhaust temp.

Regards

AGM

[AGM]

For a full rundown on the Aquamist water injection system I am using see

http://www.aquamist.co.uk

Spend some time looking at the technical info, it is worth the read.

Regards

AGM

[Q45tech]

Ford holds all the patents on using an auxillary AC compressor to chill a water res to circulate the fluid thru the water to air intercooler........they keep the air after the intercooler at 50-60F [even with a 8psi boost at 90F outside for up to 15 seconds [100-120F temperature reduction].

As far as I know this has only been demoed on show cars not in production yet but soon, adds about $4,000 to cost but hey that cheap.

You could just suck all the cold [70F] air out of the passenger compartment in 10 seconds {WEAR EAR PLUGS}.

You don't want boost at idle nor under 2000 so as not to affect the reliability and gas mileage then WHAM close the bypass when WOT.

RADIAL Superchargers are a inverse square function [more or less].....half the rpm 1/4 of the boost, 1/4 rpm -1/16 of boost and most of the drive HP requirement increases with boost so parasitically they take only a few HP to turn at cruise.....but 20 HP at a 6000 rpm input speed multiplied by the pulley ratio.

[Q45tech]

http://www.vs57.com/limitations.htmNice discussion of HP requirements to drive supercharger and the explanation of impeller tiip speed limits etc

[Q45tech]

http://www.vs57.com/history.htmhttp://www.vs57.com/

I know this is old old stuff but important to understand that there were 28,000 supercharged cars made in US in the 50s. Packard, Studebacker, Ford..........it was fairly normal but boost was limited to 5 psi.........a 4.7 liter [289 cu inch engine made 275HP/333lb/ft in 1957and was quite reliable --Stude Golden Hawk].

from 1954"If McCulloch can meet the target price of under $175, it will probably be the most successful performance accessory that anyone has put on the market for years."

Motor Trend, April 1954 - Supercharged Kaiser Darrin

[EWT]

RADIAL Superchargers are a inverse square function [more or less].....half the rpm 1/4 of the boost, 1/4 rpm -1/16 of boost and most of the drive HP requirement increases with boost so parasitically they take only a few HP to turn at cruise.....but 20 HP at a 6000 rpm input speed multiplied by the pulley ratio.

It's a shame emissions regulations are making it harder and harder for turbos to be viable since centrifigal compressors exhibit that behavior. If they're belt driven, they don't make full boost until redline, where they can make full boost at a much lower rpm if the compressor is driven by exhaust gasses with a wastegate to regulate boost level (i.e. a turbo). Turbos have lower parastatic losses to boot. Taking heat out of the exhaust stream is the last thing you want for cold start emissions testing though.

[sijoko]

AGM, I did not realize that you had posted pics of your setup. I had been away for a month or so.

Thanks, sopdadope for letting me know.

[Q45tech]

If you had a MAGIC supercharger that didn't take power from the engine you were boosting you would find that a turbocharger is less efficient [than you think] as the restriction in the exhaust REMOVES a roughly equal amount of power potential plus the close coupling of the compressor wheel actually makes the output air hotter per equal psi boost due to radiation and conduction thru the common shaft.

The difference is that the engine has to make the extra 10-15 HP to turn the supercharger so this amount gets absorbed and never shows up at the flywheel.The downside of turbos is the restriction allows the exhaust valves [valve seats, stem seals, heads around the exhaust ports to get hotter because the backup of heat doesn't leave as fast.

Then there is the life of the turbo vs the life of the supercharger and the fact that the turbo may spin 2-3-4 times faster than a supercharger.

There are trade offs in each ideally one would want a supercharger that only engaged when need [a clutch like AC but stronger] and had bypass valves so that it was not in the air circuit at cruise or idle.

AC compressors use around 5 HP but are safely shut down when you WOT both for power and to extend their life [high rpm damage]....so the clutch would need to be big as you might downshift at 4500 rpm demanding supercharging....check out the new MB versions for the Eaton type.....

It is great to see all these cars going back to supercharging.

400 HP from 4.6 liters, 490 HP from 5.5 liters......I expect MB/AMG to break 500HP and inch up to 520......[as the new 6 speed AT designed by ZF can handle 450 lb/ft that would be 514 HP at 6,000 rpm....that only requires 7 psi in a engine designed for supercharging from the get go.......you need the larger displacement so that at 1,800-2,000 rpm [no boost with a 9.3 CR] you can make enough torque to cruise a 4,000 pounder.

Soon you will see variable displacements coming back in V10 and V12 with light supercharging!

[AGM]

The spare electric water pump I have produces only about 5HP.

I have pretty much given up on the idea of running my Supercharger by an electric motor.

The HP motor required is likley to be to large and draw to much from the alternator.

If someone could come up with a small, low current draw automotive electric motor for such an application they might make a lot of money.

I have heard of electric Superchargers, but have never actually seen one.

I think I will stick with my current set up and call it a day, unless of course I can get an intercooler fitted, or should I only take the car out on cold nights.

Regards

AGM

[Chally]

You need to see how it goes in the heat of January, across the Nulabor Plains & into the ACT...

There is a Speed test in South Australia every year, where you can take any vehicle & give it a high speed test. I think it's at Lake Eyre.

[Sopdadope]

AGM, what's that black module with the Red Line sticker? Is that the fuel reservoir or is that for the water injection? Maybe you could modify an Active Suspension fluid reservoir for water injection use? The ActSus reservoir resides in the cavity alongside the front/driver fender, can hold a high-volume of fluid but takes up very minimal engine space.

Maybe if that is successful, you could fit an aftercooler into the space occupied by whatever those two reservoirs are? At car shows, I've seen Bimmer's with Vortech blowers and aftercooler kits, the aftercoolers were absolutely small and crammed into any peehole of space that it could fit in. Also you could use the airbox air scoop to supply cool air to the aftercooler. Just a thought.

[EWT]

If you had a MAGIC supercharger that didn't take power from the engine you were boosting you would find that a turbocharger is less efficient [than you think] as the restriction in the exhaust REMOVES a roughly equal amount of power potential plus the close coupling of the compressor wheel actually makes the output air hotter per equal psi boost due to radiation and conduction thru the common shaft.

Turbos do use up some power by restricting the exhaust flow, but they also use "free" energy in the form of heat that would otherwise just go down the exhaust. Temperature drops of 150-250F are typical pre/post turbo. In the late 80s, F1 cars made 1300-1400hp in qualifying trim with turbos from 1.5L while top fuel cars make 5000-6000 hp (roughly 4X the power) with superchargers and 5.5 times the displacement, and F1 cars had two significant handicaps compared to the top fuel cars. F1 cars used gasoline with limited octane compared to nitro that top fuel cars use (which allows them to run much higher boost pressures), and F1 cars had to stay together for a much longer period of time than a 4.5 second quarter mile pass. There's a reason all the F1 cars used turbos rather than superchargers back then. They don't use as much power.

The majority of heat in an intake charge on a car with forced induction is from compression. The heat transfered from the exhaust side of the turbo is minimal by comparision. Air is going through that little compressor housing too fast to transfer much heat. Since turbos often have more efficient compressors than superchargers, outlet discharge temperatures for turbos can easily be cooler than a supercharger for a given level of boost. In any case, adequate intercooling can bring the intake charge down to near ambient temperatures on either application.

Quote »The difference is that the engine has to make the extra 10-15 HP to turn the supercharger so this amount gets absorbed and never shows up at the flywheel.The downside of turbos is the restriction allows the exhaust valves [valve seats, stem seals, heads around the exhaust ports to get hotter because the backup of heat doesn't leave as fast.[/quote]

That is a drawback of turbos, and why I'm generally not a big fan of adding turbos to cars that haven't been designed for them at the factory. You do get a lot of heat on the exhaust side of the engine, particuarily if you use a "small" turbo, which most people do since a non-turbo motor usually isn't strong enough to run the high boost levels where "big" turbos are needed. Since the Q45 has sodium filled exhaust valves (early ones at least), it might be a better candidate for some for turboing.

Quote »Then there is the life of the turbo vs the life of the supercharger and the fact that the turbo may spin 2-3-4 times faster than a supercharger.[/quote]

Modern water cooled turbos are pretty dang reliable if they're maintained (not shut down immediately after 10 laps on a racetrack and regular oil changes), and not abused (overspun by running at boost levels way above stock). Most turbo failures I hear of these days are people who don't take care of them, or are from using a "hybrid" turbo somebody built in their garage from spare parts. I've personally got about 350K turbocharged miles without a failure, and my cars spend a lot of time racing in various venues, so I'm a lot harder on my turbos than the average user. I'd guess the average lifespan of a turbo is a lot longer than the transmission or chain guides of an early Q.

Quote »It is great to see all these cars going back to supercharging.[/quote]

The positive displacement blowers that are showing up in the last few years are a nice application for a lot of cars. An eaton putting out about 5 psi would probably be a nice upgrade for a Q45 (until the tranmission got unhappy anyway.) The instant torque you get from a positive displacement blower (although not a centrifigal blower) is preferably to the torque curve you get from a turbo in a luxury car for most people. I'd like to build a GS300 with a Supra motor at some point though. A 700hp sedan that still looked bone stock would be a lot of fun.

[maxnix]

I believe that was done in Japan before the GS 400/430 were imported to the US.

[AGM]

Sopdadope,

To fit the Supercharger into the engine bay I had to shift a number of things around in the engine bay.

The first thing I had to do was shift the battery into the boot, to create some room in the engine bay for the Supercharger.

As the Supercharger set up was to have the intake on the left hand side feeding the throttle body on the right hand side, I removed the Oem air intake and built an airbox to the left hand side of the vehicle.

I also had to do a lot of other minor shifting such as turning the fuse block on its side ect.

Anyway, the removal of the OEM airbox left the engine bay with a large void that looked out of place.

For cosmetic reasons only, all I did was shift the charcoal canister up into in this space to take up some of the cavity.

As the installer of my Supercharger is also the State distributor of Redline, he took the liberty of putting a sticker on the canister.

The Aquamist bottle supplied with the kit was quite small and was not opaque, so it did not carry much water and you have to keep taking off the lid to check the water level.

For this reason, I swapped the lines to the Aquamist bottle with the windscreen washer bottle, so that I now use the Aquamist botttle for the windscreen and the windscreen bottle for the Aquamist.

Do you know if Vortech makes only the one model of aftercooler or do they make various models/combination?

Do you have a recommended model number ect?

Do you have any pics?

Do you know how efficent this unit is in a hot engine bay and how it works.

Would the cavity resulting from the removal of the Oem air intake provide me with sufficent space, if I shift the charcoal canister back to its origional position?

Depending on how this unit works, I should be able to get airflow to this area, given it is the origional air intake position.

How is this aftercooler unit different to an intercooler and is it as efficent in providing ambient air temperature.

By the way my car is not a Q45a just a Q45. To my knowlege ther are no Q's with active suspension in Australia.

Regards

AGM

[Stoneage_Turbo]

"a 4.7 liter [289 cu inch engine made 275HP/333lb/ft in 1957and was quite reliable --Stude Golden Hawk]."

what a great car that was, the blower had a nifty clutch on it too that changed its diamter with engine rpm to change its pulley ratio , not unlike some snowmobile clutches ...

[AGM]

Calling all revheads,

Please take another look at the plumbing on my Supercharger set up below.

http://www.iinet.net.au/~ricphoto/zoom.html

If you had to pick an aftercooler set up from Votrech, which one would you choose, bearing in mind I can get some more room in the engine bay where you see the "redline" sticker on the charcoal canister.

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/aftercoolers/

Your help is appreciated.

Regards

Ashley Mijat

[sultan]

i don't know what you should use or how you should do it, but i know there's room where the airbox was to put a 4-inch hole through the metal to the lower bumper area. can probably do the same where the battery was and maybe put the intake or aftercooler in the opening between the fog lights.

[Sopdadope]

AGM, which Vortech model # is your S/c? Some of the 4.6L mustangs have a dinky aftercooler fitted vertically between the engine and the shock towers.

[AGM]

Sopdadope, The model number of the Vortech is 'V9G'

Regards

AGM