What has gone wrong with Infiniti?

[myother45isalesbaer]

I am not looking for a dog fight nor am I conducting a pole/survey. All I am saying is I have had such great service from my 2004 I was looking to trade for a newer model. But when I read the posts of people who had major issues with engines and transmission it makes be wonder if Infiniti has gone down hill in terms of reliability and quality. Minor issues any car can have. The last issue of Car & Driver did not give a good review of the new M56S. Sorry, I don't read consumer reports and don't trust them when it comes to cars. Just my OP.

[m4m]

I must say that overall, I am happy with my 2009 M. It is best value of sport, luxury and features for the money.
Here is My list of top 3 M complaints:
1. - Transmission throttle mapping seems confused at times, especially at slower speeds.
2. - Brakes (rotors and pads), had to go to dealer twice to resurface to get rid of vibration when brakes applied.
3. - Leather quality very low end, noticed driver seat cracks and creases happen WAY too fast, it looks like car has over 100k miles, instead of just 26K I have.

But once again, if you look at the price points, it's less expensive than the BMWs and Mercs. I guess the quality has to be sacrificed somewhere in order to lower the price. I'm not justifying them - I'm dissapointed with several of these types of things.

[myother45isalesbaer]

I must say that overall, I am happy with my 2009 M. It is best value of sport, luxury and features for the money.
Here is My list of top 3 M complaints:
1. - Transmission throttle mapping seems confused at times, especially at slower speeds.
2. - Brakes (rotors and pads), had to go to dealer twice to resurface to get rid of vibration when brakes applied.
3. - Leather quality very low end, noticed driver seat cracks and creases happen WAY too fast, it looks like car has over 100k miles, instead of just 26K I have.

But once again, if you look at the price points, it's less expensive than the BMWs and Mercs. I guess the quality has to be sacrificed somewhere in order to lower the price. I'm not justifying them - I'm dissapointed with several of these types of things.

m4m,

Sorry to hear about the problems. But you stated 3 excellent reasons why Infiniti seems to be going down hill. My personal conclusion, and not one I am happy to make, is that I best look at other makes for my next purchase. Hate to give up on them, but they are not the only game in town. I hope they get their act together soon.

[Double E]

Chito,
Yes, quite unfortunate. The fuel sending issue is long discussed here and a known 2003 issue as is the general Y34 seat problem and common-to-many oil consumption.

The other stuff you've had go wrong is unfortunate, yes.

It sounds like you rely on the dealer to do all of the work. Is that so?
Which fuel line came disconnected?

I have had none of that save for a bit of oil consumption. In general, I still think it's an awesome vehicle.

Swap out your plugs & check your air pressure is my recommendation for better MPG but keep in mind that the winter blend of fuel is upon us and mileage will drop a few 10ths.

112K miles & fast.

[myother45isalesbaer]

Double E,

I see in your response that you have a 2004 as I do with no issues. My entire post is what went wrong after 2004. They came out with the G and M in a variety of configurations. Why they ever dumped the Q is a mystery to me. The 2003-2004 M's seem to be the last of the reliable Infinities. I want a grand, large luxury sport sedan and Infiniti does not seem to offer one any longer. Sorry to say they are just not getting me excited any more. And the worst of it is I can't find another car that can replace my 2004 for size, handling, power, luxury, etc. I think Infiniti shot themselves in the foot. My OP.

[Double E]

LesBaer,

Yes, I believe understand your post correctly. I was addressing the issues from Chitownson and his 2003 in my post.

Likewise, I'm not confident I'll go with another M once mine is used up. In fact, it may not be an Infiniti (unless I can find another old Y34 with 20K miles).

However, the wife wants an M now and there's not much out there I'd consider. I may need to get another in the Spring.

Now...who has a 2004 Y34 for sale with 20K miles?

[myother45isalesbaer]

Double E,

If it were me I would do everything to get the bride off the M and into a nice Nissan or Toyota. I agree there is not much out there to replace the 2003-04 M's. The only one I found is a BMW 760 which is way too expensive for me. But I love the ride and power. If you find another ride you like as much as the M you have let me know.

[Double E]

No problem! You're on my short list to confer with.

Random thoughts...
I'm thinking an AMG with a 6.2L so far but nothing is really pushing me towards it.
I wish Acura still made the Legend.
I wonder if the Mercury Marauder would be any fun....nevermind, it was discontinued in 2004.
Cadillac CTS-V maybe?

[myother45isalesbaer]

Double E,

All good picks. But none of them are doing it for me. I am getting to the point where SUV's and Pick-ups are looking good. In my heart I know I wouldn't be happy with either. Guess I will just hang on to my M until something comes along I like.

[merlinq2]

2007 M35 AWD- 98K kilometers or 61K miles, a dream to drive no issues rattles, annoyances.


1. - Transmission throttle mapping seems confused at times, especially at slower speeds. - Gives the car character

2. - Brakes (rotors and pads), had to go to dealer twice to resurface to get rid of vibration when brakes applied. - gone to ebay slotted an drilled, self install and no vibration or fade.

3. - Leather quality very low end, noticed driver seat cracks and creases happen WAY too fast, it looks like car has over 100k miles, instead of just 26K I have. - Check a MD C class and tell me what you get- that's right leatherett- fake leather. Good leather does wear and will crack- not saying Nissan used the best of leather, that is reserved for Audi's.

Could it be better , could it be the quality of a high end Audi- for sure, but have you priced a comparably equipped A6 loaded - way above my pay grade. Nissan did a good job, no cheap not extravagant just optimal.

My car is excellent.

[myother45isalesbaer]

Well there you go making my point. I drove a 1995 Q and everything in it was top of the line like BMW, Benz's or Audi. Engine, paint, leather looked almost as good as the day it was built. Infiniti is cheaping their cars up and charging too much to buy them. If you want a better car look else where. Infiniti is going down the drain in my OP.

[merlinq2]

I guess we all have our views, expectations and perceptions of quality. The truth is that all cars are becoming globalized and huge over heads and costs of R&D and the wasted money on engineering is rationalized by CFO's = less content for the same or more money = profit not quality.

Look at where the MB class is being manufactured (see below). I work for a publicly traded north American manufacturer, in our company and almost every other north American company (publicly traded) the shareholders dictate quality based on growth and greed. Simple capitalistic force drive the quality of your car, no brand is exempt.

Quality is a thing of the past, not just at Infiniti. We are all driven by value decisions; we have all given up the pursuit of quality and excellence because it cost too much money and the ROI is not immediate.

When you take your entire manufacturing sector and sell it to Asia etc, what do expect is going to happen. We refuse to by local because it costs too much, therefore you take costs out and the quality erosion starts. By a 2007 BMW 335i twin turbo and drive it for three months and tell us what you. This is the Six Sigma decade of destruction and anarchy. Six-Sigma is why we get less for our money. I can prove it, I see it every day.

Maybe the fact that I have owned Nissan's since 95 and I am very loyal to the brand taints my objectivity, however, I bought my car expecting my needs to be met, reliable, fun to drive, great ride, smooth engine and Nissan Fit and finish, so what I have is a very high end maxima, call me stupid, but I am content in that. Never once has Nissan failed me, my buddy with the 335i went from a G35 cope to the BMW and is now in FX45.

I strongly believe in your opening comment, the old days were better, we needed good cars and that was that. Now we have high school drop outs telling us technology we need. Today's cars are crap their systems suck and the whole idea of value and quality is not sustainable.



Mercedes-Benz C-Class

Manufacturer Mercedes-Benz
Production 1993–present
Assembly
Pune, Maharashtra, India
Toluca, Mexico[1]
Egypt
Bogor, Indonesia
Bremen, Germany
East London, South Africa
Juiz de Fora, Brazil[2]
Sindelfingen, Germany
Thonburi, Thailand
Pekan, Malaysia
Predecessor Mercedes-Benz 190E
Successor Mercedes-Benz CLC-Class (For Coupe)
Class Compact executive car
Layout Front engine, rear-wheel drive

[myother45isalesbaer]

merling2,

WOW! Very interesting post. Being Six Sigma trained and a so called "Greenbelt" I completely agree with everything you have stated. Just sorry to see the higher end cars going to the scrap heap by limited life mode of thinking by big business. I know of farm tractors that are almost as old if not older than me and they are still running and getting the fields plowed, but I can't find a car with that reliablity. It's a stinking shame.

[merlinq2]

Unfortunate that we agree

[myother45isalesbaer]

Unfortunate that we agree

Well maybe not. If enough of us start whining and not buying the suits will get it and change. Not likely, but I am in a no buy mode regarding Infiniti's. Also in a no buy mode for BMW, Benz's, Audi's, Volvo, Lexus and a few others. Maybe I will go to Jag or Fords. Oh, I forgot, they are the same company now with different names. Maybe an old frame off restored car from the 60's to 70's is the ticket.

[The00Dustin]

Well maybe not. If enough of us start whining and not buying the suits will get it and change. Not likely

Not likely that enough sheeple will ever complain or stand their ground, anyway.

Maybe I will go to Jag or Fords. Oh, I forgot, they are the same company now with different names. Maybe an old frame off restored car from the 60's to 70's is the ticket.

I believe Ford sold Jag, I know they sold Aston Martin, Land Rover, and several other brands. Part of how they survived the recession without a bailout (and also part of how they started recovering / getting profitable, I guess). I also know their truck plant in Dearborn is pretty clean and quality oriented, unfortunately one can't know the same about all of their suppliers and I don't even know about their other plants. I would probably be driving a Ford if they weren't so behind the times when I was buying a car (for instance, on Lincoln: no power, no size, no luxury, same price tags). I believe they are changing that, though, and I have heard pretty good things about their ecoboost technology (and bad things about everyone's lighter thinner seats to help meet CAFE fuel economy requirements). Ford is changing the MKS to a smaller frame in the near future if they haven't already, but I'm sure that smaller frame is comparable to the M. I think that means the Germans are the only ones that still have a true full size option (outside of trucks/SUVs), but you have to be loaded to afford it, and VW is making the US Phaeton smaller, so it's possible Audi will follow suit on that.

[myother45isalesbaer]

TheOODustin,

It's too bad that what you state is true and I agree. I keep thinking my next ride is going to be an old restored 60's car. They don't have the bells and whistles the new ones do.....but do I really need all that? I can't afford a BMW, Mercedes or an Audi the way I would like it configured. What I like about the older luxury cars is in CT they are registered as classics and exempt from all emissions, gas guzzler taxes, etc. I like the older T'Birds and Lincolns with the suicide doors. A completely restored one you can get for less than most of the new luxury sports sedans out there. True, they need more maintence than the new ones do, but that kind of maintence is a "do it yourself" and cheaper than the new cars are.

To antzrus,

I read your post several times and I do not understand a word of it. Not to be insulting, but next time could you state your point clearly in English instead of code talker language. I would be interested in hearing what you have to say.

[Theo]

The issues with the various engines , v8 or v6 is a major problem. Engine replacements at this rate reflects on poor quality, I don't see how that's debtable. I'd like to know where Infiniti makes its engines now, is it actually Japan? the leaking valve covers on the v6 is a joke, I wonder how many people out there are leaking oil out the valve covers (and burning it) and have no idea it's happening. The defective seat issue is dangerous and another joke. The transmissions in the M are suspect in my opinion! Overall it's a good brand and I like my M (and love my Xterra) but QC has suffered in the last few years across the brand in my opinion.

Oh, then there's the people with the wood trim peeling off! QC? In a 5 year old car,,,Really!

[The00Dustin]

I can't afford a BMW, Mercedes or an Audi the way I would like it configured. What I like about the older luxury cars is in CT they are registered as classics and exempt from all emissions, gas guzzler taxes, etc. I like the older T'Birds and Lincolns with the suicide doors. A completely restored one you can get for less than most of the new luxury sports sedans out there. True, they need more maintence than the new ones do, but that kind of maintence is a "do it yourself" and cheaper than the new cars are.

I know what you mean. If I enjoyed working on cars, could have a spare car, and didn't want certain creature comforts, I'd be leaning that way too.

The defective seat issue is dangerous and another joke. The transmissions in the M are suspect in my opinion!

I believe you are the first person I have seen type this. I feel the same way, but figured I was just cynical as I have no good reason not to trust them and when I asked some time ago it seemed everyone was of the opinion that the transmission is a truck transmission that is extremely overbuilt and doesn't need worried about.

[wingFeather]

Luxury started going downhill the day Lexus came online & advertised a car that looked (on the surface) like a Mercedes, but for half the price. Most people didn't understand heritage or engineering, so they stopped paying for it.

Ever since then, companies have been cutting quality because people didn't seem to care about it anymore. Why pay for 30 year durability when you'll only keep it for 2 to 5? Why pay for leather on the sides of the seat? Hey, why stop there? People won't notice that their $$$ car uses some of the same interior components as the cheapy Tercel (or Sentra in our case).

The poetic justice here is that Lexus is beginning to get bit in the a** by Kia & Hyundai, who are using their same tactics from decades earlier. Why pay for the Lexus badge when you could have a Hyundai that is half the price? Ha ha! Unfortunately Nisfiniti will have to go down, too.

[myother45isalesbaer]

Luxury started going downhill the day Lexus came online & advertised a car that looked (on the surface) like a Mercedes, but for half the price. Most people didn't understand heritage or engineering, so they stopped paying for it.

Ever since then, companies have been cutting quality because people didn't seem to care about it anymore. Why pay for 30 year durability when you'll only keep it for 2 to 5? Why pay for leather on the sides of the seat? Hey, why stop there? People won't notice that their $$$ car uses some of the same interior components as the cheapy Tercel (or Sentra in our case).

The poetic justice here is that Lexus is beginning to get bit in the a** by Kia & Hyundai, who are using their same tactics from decades earlier. Why pay for the Lexus badge when you could have a Hyundai that is half the price? Ha ha! Unfortunately Nisfiniti will have to go down, too.

Sad but true. Overtime many brands of autos have come and gone. Time will tell if Infiniti can survive. Personally I am not even thinking about a new one. I guess I just will keep my 2004M until it dies and then take a look see at what else is out there.

[merlinq2]

The best idea yet, keep them until they die!
I bet these cars last as long at a Benz from 30 years ago. We will all live with the tiny issues that we will complain about; but these cars will get us where we need to go over and over again.
It is sad; and nothing we can do about it or is there? Maybe we can run one of those occupy demonstrations and complain how we as luxury car buyers have had enough, we want quality and we want it now!! They seem to be working well to bring the plight of the poor and exploited to the forefront! See you in Union Square at noon!!!
I can only stay and hour: I have to pick the seat fabric for my new cabin cruiser.

[myother45isalesbaer]

The best idea yet, keep them until they die!
I bet these cars last as long at a Benz from 30 years ago. We will all live with the tiny issues that we will complain about; but these cars will get us where we need to go over and over again.
It is sad; and nothing we can do about it or is there? Maybe we can run one of those occupy demonstrations and complain how we as luxury car buyers have had enough, we want quality and we want it now!! They seem to be working well to bring the plight of the poor and exploited to the forefront! See you in Union Square at noon!!!
I can only stay and hour: I have to pick the seat fabric for my new cabin cruiser.

LOL. As prices go up quality goes down. Isn't that some economic rule we all learned years ago. No, got that wrong, it was about supply and demand. Did they change the rules when we were not paying attention? Good luck with the cabin cruiser. See you at Union Square. Still ROFLOL.

[TDot]

^^^^^^

[M35 Sport]

Well My 06 M35 just hit 120K miles this morning. I am still pleased with the car. I bought it used in 09 with 29K miles. I am thinking I may keep the car until I get about 150K miles. At this point I don't know what I will get next besides maybe an 09 M35 Sport. (a litlle more power and slightly better gas mileage). I drive over 100 miles a day for my commute. I want something that gets better gas mileage but still enjoyable to drive.

[SteveTheTech]

I am glad to hear some good posts about Infinities instead of reading about bling, wheel issues and other things I just think are "pimp your ride" matters.

I have heard the same thing from several people in the last few years. These cars have changed hands several times over the last several years as all models do. There is no doubt these cars do not age the same as the older models. In the old days they would survive despite the owners best efforts. I see a model split at some point in the forum structure will be required, as the topics of the day will change even more.

I guess we all have our views, expectations and perceptions of quality. The truth is that all cars are becoming globalized and huge over heads and costs of R&D and the wasted money on engineering is rationalized by CFO's = less content for the same or more money = profit not quality.

Maybe the fact that I have owned Nissan's since 95 and I am very loyal to the brand taints my objectivity, however, I bought my car expecting my needs to be met, reliable, fun to drive, great ride, smooth engine and Nissan Fit and finish, so what I have is a very high end maxima, call me stupid, but I am content in that. Never once has Nissan failed me, my buddy with the 335i went from a G35 cope to the BMW and is now in FX45.

I strongly believe in your opening comment, the old days were better, we needed good cars and that was that. Now we have high school drop outs telling us technology we need. Today's cars are crap their systems suck and the whole idea of value and quality is not sustainable.

I too have been a huge Nissan fan for the last decade. No car I have owned or driven has felt quite the same as the mid 90s Q or J30 in prime shape. Their best years were 96 (first year of obdII) for the J30 and Q and 99 for the Q45T IMO.

Look at the progression of the G coupe. Since 2003 that car has improved significantly...but they sold a bunch of those. The Y34 and Q45, the last legit quality Infinitis sold so few they axed the lines. The other models they had between 00 and 04 were...transitional to say the least. Then the QX56 shows up. The FM platform saved the brand. Using it in the FX and G allowed them to save money and improve the product (structurally) year over year. They use quality engine and transmission internal parts, software for those items usually gets more tinkering as the amount of sensors increase. The Jatco transmission has been used in the same basic structure since the early Qs, it now has seven speeds and goes into Neutral when at a stop light.

I hate to run on a little longer on this topic I just see these cars from a different angle than most of you so I have seen some weird things. There were some quality issues in the mid 90s on the other models (QX4 and G20 were never really good vehicles). The reliability and technology have increased over the years although they don't age as well if they are not meticulously upkept.

Alright one more quick thing, the advanced technology in the new models are something that keeps me with Infiniti. These systems are complicated and often misunderstood but they usually work and always build off each other in the next model.The 2012 FX is an amazing vehicle, I highly recommend taking one for a ride if you have the chance. That is a prime example of the continued progression of this brand.

[merlinq2]

Do you recall when Nissan was sold to Renault -1999? I think that was the start of the cost cutting and the quality slump that came a few years after that Renault acquisition. Mind you the Nissan company would have died had it not been for the turn around that was driven by France.

I believe Nissan/Renault is like any other business, they find away to take costs out and then the road to refinement is travelled, slowly and guided by profitability and innovation.

Innovation is where quality tends to fall behind the vision of marketing. More money is allocated to R&D then tooling and operational execution of the vision; resulting in bad products.

Pick any business that follows trends and you find story of great ideas mired with poor execution.

If you want quality, you need to take production and manufacturing away from China and other developing countries.

This will cost us all more; we will need to pay more for everything. As we all try to get more from our hard earned bucks, we become less willing to pay a premium for anything at all.

In the USA 15 cents of every retail dollar spent will find its’ way through a Wal-Mart cash register.

From there the money goes directly to the banks communist empire – China. I am not slamming Wal-Mart; I am slamming us for wanting more for less. How did we allow this to happen? WE ARE CHEAP!!!

The globalization of our economy had to come at some cost; that cost is quality. Pick any brand, Benz, BMW (the bell weathers), Honda, Toyota, Nissan, GM, Ford, P&G, etc.

Wow, I just read this and have no idea how I got to this. Talk about rambling.


I love my Nissan, I would buy another Nissan product with out question.

[axefire]

My biggest issue with Infiniti right now is not recalling that seat movment issue I mean really they want you to pay1,200 to repair what I think is a safty issue..and buy the way I had my shortblock replaced under warrenty
my M had I knock at low RPM's running good now but not sure if im sold on the craftman ship if these cars

!!! +1 one on this! 75k on my 06 and no engine problems (knock on wood). between oil changes, after 3000 miles I'm about 1/2 quart low - if I wait until 5k I'm about a quart low. but I change my oil every 3 to 4 k regardless...expect now, got 5K and need a oil change BADLY -

My only problem is the driver seat on the 06!!!! Otherwise... it's a sweet ride....

Love the mats Antz - way cool baby....

[myother45isalesbaer]

I am glad to hear some good posts about Infinities instead of reading about bling, wheel issues and other things I just think are "pimp your ride" matters.

I have heard the same thing from several people in the last few years. These cars have changed hands several times over the last several years as all models do. There is no doubt these cars do not age the same as the older models. In the old days they would survive despite the owners best efforts. I see a model split at some point in the forum structure will be required, as the topics of the day will change even more.

I guess we all have our views, expectations and perceptions of quality. The truth is that all cars are becoming globalized and huge over heads and costs of R&D and the wasted money on engineering is rationalized by CFO's = less content for the same or more money = profit not quality.

Maybe the fact that I have owned Nissan's since 95 and I am very loyal to the brand taints my objectivity, however, I bought my car expecting my needs to be met, reliable, fun to drive, great ride, smooth engine and Nissan Fit and finish, so what I have is a very high end maxima, call me stupid, but I am content in that. Never once has Nissan failed me, my buddy with the 335i went from a G35 cope to the BMW and is now in FX45.

I strongly believe in your opening comment, the old days were better, we needed good cars and that was that. Now we have high school drop outs telling us technology we need. Today's cars are crap their systems suck and the whole idea of value and quality is not sustainable.

I too have been a huge Nissan fan for the last decade. No car I have owned or driven has felt quite the same as the mid 90s Q or J30 in prime shape. Their best years were 96 (first year of obdII) for the J30 and Q and 99 for the Q45T IMO.

Look at the progression of the G coupe. Since 2003 that car has improved significantly...but they sold a bunch of those. The Y34 and Q45, the last legit quality Infinitis sold so few they axed the lines. The other models they had between 00 and 04 were...transitional to say the least. Then the QX56 shows up. The FM platform saved the brand. Using it in the FX and G allowed them to save money and improve the product (structurally) year over year. They use quality engine and transmission internal parts, software for those items usually gets more tinkering as the amount of sensors increase. The Jatco transmission has been used in the same basic structure since the early Qs, it now has seven speeds and goes into Neutral when at a stop light.

I hate to run on a little longer on this topic I just see these cars from a different angle than most of you so I have seen some weird things. There were some quality issues in the mid 90s on the other models (QX4 and G20 were never really good vehicles). The reliability and technology have increased over the years although they don't age as well if they are not meticulously upkept.

Alright one more quick thing, the advanced technology in the new models are something that keeps me with Infiniti. These systems are complicated and often misunderstood but they usually work and always build off each other in the next model.The 2012 FX is an amazing vehicle, I highly recommend taking one for a ride if you have the chance. That is a prime example of the continued progression of this brand.

Very interesting information. I have always liked the FX and living in snow country it makes sense to me. But, having gone to the Infiniti web page that bad boy retails for $61K the way I want it. Thats alot of bucks and my 2004 M45 is priced at dirt for a trade or sale. In my OP the FX is over priced about 15-20K and I still have my doubts about reliability and Infiniti's lousy attitude about customer service. My local dealer does not even have a FX50 on the lot to test drive.

[SteveTheTech]

Do you recall when Nissan was sold to Renault -1999? I think that was the start of the cost cutting and the quality slump that came a few years after that Renault acquisition. Mind you the Nissan company would have died had it not been for the turn around that was driven by France.

Excellent point

Very interesting information. I have always liked the FX and living in snow country it makes sense to me. But, having gone to the Infiniti web page that bad boy retails for $61K the way I want it. Thats alot of bucks and my 2004 M45 is priced at dirt for a trade or sale. In my OP the FX is over priced about 15-20K and I still have my doubts about reliability and Infiniti's lousy attitude about customer service. My local dealer does not even have a FX50 on the lot to test drive.

Although I am in not in the market or target demographic for that vehicle I have a different attitude about the FX.
Please take my comments with a grain of salt. I work on them...we do frequently play the "when I get one I'd get it with...." game.


That is a short list of comparably equipped vehicles.
Every vehicle has its' own pros and cons, I have always like the FX and the new M awd (or hybrid) with the deluxe touring would do quite nicely.

I might have drank a bit much of the company koolaid but I genuinely see less quality related breakages of things as we would see with the 03-04 models and first year of a few other models. The thing I see most of that effects peoples perception in regard to scratches on the interior panels from daily use.
As a wearer of a tungsten wedding band I know that the nicer the quality finish on anything the easier to destroy the finish with an accidental swipe. (I left a permanent silver scratch in the windshield of my J the third day I had it, that was a rage inducing surprise benefit of marriage )
The leather in the next generation vehicles (07+G,EX,10+QX, and 11+M) all have a different style finish on the leather and the quality is significantly improved. The Y50 seats were slightly nicer than the Y34 in a similar way, the new deluxe touring leather and seats are by far the nicest they have made thus far. The older seats took more maintenance to keep in perfect condition and would still separate even with the best care, and it was deemed natural wear and tear...as with most car companies.

That's strange my dealer has two or three FX50s, we've actually sold a few.

If you are looking for 15-20K less what about a Murano?
Tech wise it is the most similar to the FX, they typically use one year older AV and they do not have the bells and whistles that add to the bottom line. It is one of the only Nissans that is still built in Japan...