What do you guys think about 9/11

[Urabus GodofTraction]

The 9/11 conspiracy can be proved right/wrong much easier then most because of the major publicity of it.

*bangs head against wall*

[themadscientist]

When have you ever seen me suffer a retard?

The problem with these kinds of things is they are basically unprovable either way so it really depends on the filter each person views it through. The government was definitely involved in that they did not take security seriously enough to stop such a large plot. I still think they haven't.

[THAIGER420]

TMS kudos on your work in that BH thread i laughed so hard i almost cried once again thank you and enjoy the rest of your weekend

[themadscientist]

He can dish it out but he can't take it it seems. He is not fit to hold Yakota's keyboard. THAT, is how I treat retards

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Link me?

[themadscientist]

check the moved threads section.

[barrigas14]

We can do without the name calling since we are having a civil discussion .

IF the whacko statement hurts your feelings get over it. Was I implying it to you? NO, so stop looking like "I am the high and mighty taking the high road."

References...

Air Crash AnalysisCleveland Center regional air traffic control

Bill Crowley special agent, FBI

Ron Dokell president, Demolition Consultants

Richard Gazarik staff writer, Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

Yates Gladwell pilot, VF Corp.

Michael K. Hynes, Ed.D.,ATP, CFI, A&P/IA president, Hynes Aviation Services; expert, aviation crashes

Ed Jacoby Jr. director,New York State Emergency Management Office (Ret.); chairman, New York State Disaster Preparedness Commission (Ret.)

Johnstown-Cambria County Airport Authority

Cindi Lash staff writer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Matthew McCormick manager, survival factors division, National Transportation Safety Board (Ret.)

Wallace Miller coroner, Somerset County, PA

Robert Nagan meteorological technician, Climate Services Branch, National Climatic Data Center

Dave Newell director, aviation and travel, VF Corp.

James O’Toole politics editor, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Pennsylvania State Police Public Information Office

Jeff Pillets senior writer,The Record, Hackensack, NJ

Jeff Rienbold director, Flight 93 National Memorial, National Park Service

Dennis Roddy staff writer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Master Sgt. David Somdahl public affairs officer,119th Wing, North DakotaAir National Guard

Mark Stahl photographer; eyewitness, United Airlines Flight 93 crash scene

Air DefenseLt. Col. Skip Aldous (Ret.) squadron commander,U.S. Air Force

Tech. Sgt. Laura Bosco public affairs officer,Tyndall Air Force Base

Boston Center regional air traffic control

Laura Brown spokeswoman,Federal Aviation Administration

Todd Curtis, Ph.D. founder, Airsafe.com; president, Airsafe.com Foundation

Keith Halloway public affairs officer, National Transportation Safety Board

Ted Lopatkiewicz director, public affairs, National Transportation Safety Board

Maj. Douglas Martin public affairs officer,North American Aerospace Defense Command

Lt. Herbert McConnell public affairs officer,Andrews AFB

Michael Perini public affairs officer, North American Aerospace Defense Command

John Pike director, GlobalSecurity.org

Hank Price spokesman, FederalAviation Administration

Warren Robak RAND Corp.

Bill Shumann spokesman,Federal Aviation Administration

Louis Walsh public affairs officer, Eglin AFB

Chris Yates aviation security editor, analyst, Jane’s Transport

AviationFred E.C. Culick, Ph.D., S.B., S.M. professor of aeronautics, California Institute of Technology

Clint Oster professor of public and environmental affairs, Indiana University; aviation safety expert

Capt. Bill Scott (Ret. USAF) Rocky Mountain bureau chief, Aviation Week

Bill Uher News Media Office, NASA Langley Research Center

Col. Ed Walby (Ret. USAF)director, business development, HALE Systems Enterprise, Unmanned Systems, Northrop Grumman

Image AnalysisWilliam F. Baker member, FEMA Probe Team; partner, Skidmore, Owings, Merrill

W. Gene Corley, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. senior vice president, CTL Group; director,FEMA Probe Team

Bill Daly senior vice president, Control Risks Group

Steve Douglass image analysis consultant, Aviation Week

Thomas R. Edwards, Ph.D. founder, TREC; video forensics expert.

Ronald Greeley, Ph.D. professor of geology, Arizona State University

Rob Howard freelance photographer; WTC eyewitness

Robert L. Parker, Ph.D. professor of geophysics,University of California, San Diego

Structural Engineering / Building CollapseFarid Alfawakhiri, Ph.D. senior engineer, American Institute of Steel Construction

David Biggs, P.E. structural engineer, Ryan-Biggs Associates; member, ASCE team for FEMA report

Robert Clarke structural engineer, Controlled Demolitions Group Ltd.

Glenn Corbett technical editor, Fire Engineering; member, NIST advisory committee

Vincent Dunn deputy fire chief (Ret.), FDNY; author, The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety

John Fisher, Ph.D. professor of civil engineering, Lehigh University; professor emeritus, Center for Advanced Technology; member, FEMA Probe Team

Ken Hays executive vice president, Masonry Arts

Christoph Hoffmann, Ph.D. professor of computer science, Purdue University; project director, September 11 Pentagon Attack Simulations Using LS-Dyna, Purdue University

Allyn E. Kilsheimer, P.E.CEO, KCE Structural Engineers PC; chief structural engineer, Phoenix project; expert in blast recovery, concrete structures, emergency response

Won-Young Kim, Ph.D. seismologist, Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University

William Koplitz photo desk manager, FEMA

John Labriola freelance photographer, WTC survivor

Arthur Lerner-Lam, Ph.D. seismologist; director,Earth Institute, Center for Hazards and Risk Research, Columbia University

James Quintiere, Ph.D. professor of engineering, University of Maryland member, NIST advisory committee

Steve Riskus freelance photographer; eyewitness, Pentagon crash

Van Romero, Ph.D. vice president, New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology

Christine Shaffer spokesperson, Viracon

Mete Sozen, Ph.D., S.E. Kettelhut Distinguished Professor of Structural Engineering, Purdue University; member, Pentagon Building Performance Report; project conception, September 11 Pentagon Attack Simulations Using LS-Dyna, Purdue University

Shyam Sunder, Sc.D.acting deputy director, lead investigator, Building and Fire Research Laboratory, National Institute of Standards and Technology

Mary Tobin science writer, media relations, Earth Institute, Columbia University

Forman Williams, Ph.D. professor of engineering, physics, combustion, University of California,San Diego; member, advisory committee, National Institute of Standards and Technology

http://www.debunking911.com/index.html

For every instance that they debunk they list where the information comes from and who says it and they list other sources as well. But then again it takes time to read. AND you probably won't read them...

[ADDirishboy]

Well (and I am NOT a 9/11 conspiracy theorist AT ALL), the "open-air" burn temp of jet fuel is only a touch over 500 degrees. That is most certainly not hot enough to liquefy steel. Of course, it might have burned a little hotter in an enclosed area, but not by much. Obviously, the impact of the aircraft into the building must've compromised some structural integrity, so the collapse isn't 100% attributable to the fire.

That is the dumbest thing I have heard in a LONG time. I have been inside rooms that (near the roof) burn at right around 1000 degrees. You think that fire could not have burned alot higher than 500 degrees with ample amounts of fuel to burn (not just jet fuel but any other flammable object in the buildings like desks, drywall, roofing material, floor, etc.)

A typical house fire can reach temperatures of 1000 degrees and higher. A fire burning in the WTC will reach a substantially higher temperature.

[AZhitman]

A typical house fire can reach temperatures of 1000 degrees and higher. A fire burning in the WTC will reach a substantially higher temperature.

Yep. Fiberglass insulation melts at slightly over 1,100 degrees, and mineral wool insulation (such as is used in building fire walls) can withstand temperatures greater than 1,800 degrees. House fires often have molten fiberglass insulation in the wreckage.

[ADDirishboy]

Yep. Fiberglass insulation melts at slightly over 1,100 degrees, and mineral wool insulation (such as is used in building fire walls) can withstand temperatures greater than 1,800 degrees. House fires often have molten fiberglass insulation in the wreckage.

Exactly. The notion that the WTC towers needed extra explosives to bring them down is just stupid. The heat from the flaming wreckage was more than enough to melt through any supports built into the entire structure. Once the top floors were jeopardized, they collapsed onto the lower floors, causing complete structural failure and thus resulting in both buildings basically imploding on top of themselves.

[barrigas14]

Exactly. The notion that the WTC towers needed extra explosives to bring them down is just stupid. The heat from the flaming wreckage was more than enough to melt through any supports built into the entire structure. Once the top floors were jeopardized, they collapsed onto the lower floors, causing complete structural failure and thus resulting in both buildings basically imploding on top of themselves.

Stop saying melt! The theory people will blah blah blah you to death!

The steel beams did not melt though, they, were like you said, compromised. The Temps of the fires made the beams loose anywhere from 50-80% of their strength.

[marlin29311]

That is the dumbest thing I have heard in a LONG time. I have been inside rooms that (near the roof) burn at right around 1000 degrees. You think that fire could not have burned alot higher than 500 degrees with ample amounts of fuel to burn (not just jet fuel but any other flammable object in the buildings like desks, drywall, roofing material, floor, etc.)

A typical house fire can reach temperatures of 1000 degrees and higher. A fire burning in the WTC will reach a substantially higher temperature.

Exactly - try lighting a waste basket on fire in your living room with all the doors closed. Temperatures can reach 1200 degrees or higher in 3.5 minutes, and that is just with items in your home like wood, syntheics, and fabrics. Add in the combustibility of the plane plus all the stuff in the building and you are looking at burning near 3000 degrees F. At this temperature, you have the ability to melt/shrink/destroy almost anything.

[barrigas14]

Exactly - try lighting a waste basket on fire in your living room with all the doors closed. Temperatures can reach 1200 degrees or higher in 3.5 minutes, and that is just with items in your home like wood, syntheics, and fabrics. Add in the combustibility of the plane plus all the stuff in the building and you are looking at burning near 3000 degrees F. At this temperature, you have the ability to melt/shrink/destroy almost anything.

I think 3000 degrees is a little too high. Pockets of the fire were recorded at 1800 degrees. Again, you don't need to metal steel, especially when a building is made of trusses.

Firefighters creed states "don't trust a truss"

[themadscientist]

I think 3000 degrees is a little too high. Pockets of the fire were recorded at 1800 degrees. Again, you don't need to metal steel, especially when a building is made of trusses.

Firefighters creed states "don't trust a truss"

I believe Public Enemy said it best.

[ADDirishboy]

Stop saying melt! The theory people will blah blah blah you to death!

Wasn't there molten steal found at the site during cleanup?

It is actually very possible that the fires melted, yes, MELTED the steal support beams. Steal melts at 2400 degrees F.

[barrigas14]

Wasn't there molten steal found at the site during cleanup?

It is actually very possible that the fires melted, yes, MELTED the steal support beams. Steal melts at 2400 degrees F.

Well if you are talking about what brought the Towers down, the temps, from everything I have read reached the highest at 1804 degrees.

Now for the cleanup yes it looks like there were molten metal of some sort. If it was all steel, hard to say. Remember that the towers were filled with tons and tons of other metals that melt a lower temps than the steel used to create the towers.

Also there is some research that states that steel can burn/melt in low oxygen environments. It's over my head but here is an explanation:

"Oxidation of iron by air is not the only EXOTHERMIC reaction of iron (= structural steel which is about 98 % Fe, 1 % Mn, 0.2 % C, 0.2 % Si.....). There is at least one additional reaction of iron with the capability of keeping the rubble pile hot and cooking!

The reaction between IRON AND STEAM is also very EXOTHERMIC and fast at temperatures above 400 deg C. This reaction produces Fe3O4 AND HYDROGEN. It is the classic example of a REVERSIBLE REACTION studied in Chemistry labs at high school. But believe it or not, back at the turn of the century, the reaction of iron and steam was used as an industrial process for the manufacture of hydrogen.

I think iron and steam could have reacted in this way (at least for a while) and generated a lot of heat. What is more, the hydrogen released would have been converted back to water by reaction with oxygen, thereby generating even more heat. In this case spraying water on the rubble pile was like adding fuel to a fire!

Now add in gypsum reactions with H2 and CO and we have a great source of SO2 and/or H2S to sulfide the steel!

Perhaps the endless spraying of water on the rubble pile was not such a good idea!

In the usual lab experiment on the reversible reaction of iron and "steam", nitrogen (or some inert gas) is bubbled through water to create a gas stream saturated with water vapor at room temperature. This gas is then allowed to flow into a glass tube about 1 meter long containing iron in an inert boat at its center. This assembly is heated in a tube furnace to some desired temperature, say 500 deg C. The hydrogen/ nitrogen gas mixture is collected at the outlet of the tube furnace.

In the industrial process the feed gas might also be "water gas" which is a mixture of CO and water vapor. The outlet gas contains mostly H2 and CO2.

I am sure there was plenty of water vapor AND oxygen in the void spaces in the rubble pile. This is the "steam" I am referring to.

Please remember that the recovered pieces of structural steel were heavily OXIDIZED as well as sulfided. The most important oxidizing agents available in the rubble pile were obviously O2 and H2O.

The rubble pile was not only inhomogeneous with regard to its composition, it was inhomogeneous with regard to its temperature. This was due to localized chemical reactions. Such reactions were capable of generating high temperatures in these localized hot spots.

The demolitionists much beloved thermite is a good example, BUT NOT THE ONLY EXAMPLE. AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT THERMITE, THERMATE, SOL-GEL NANO-THERMITE WAS EVER PRESENT AT THE WTC SITE!!!!!!

It is irrelevant whether or not the steam was wet or dry, that is a chemical engineering notion only of interest in a closed and controlled system, usually under high-pressure, such as a steam generator in a power station.

Water vapor was present in the rubble pile and water vapor reacts with iron releasing HYDROGEN.

ITS CALLED A CORROSION REACTION:

METAL + WATER = METAL OXIDE + HYDROGEN

WHEN IT HAPPENED AT THREE MILE ISLAND IT CREATED A HYDROGEN BUBBLE

- NEU-FONZE

More on this iron-H2O reaction:

Modern Commercial Hydrogen generation:

"steam contacts molten iron to form iron oxide and release hydrogen.... The hydrogen production step is the same chemical reaction that occurs in the steam-iron process which was used to produce hydrogen commercially 100 years ago. In that technology steam was passed over iron particles to produce hydrogen and iron oxide. However, the rate of hydrogen production declined as the iron oxidized and was covered with rust and the cost of replenishing iron ultimately rendered this process uneconomical" http://www.alchemix.net/index....eid=2 or http://www.alchemix.us/Technol...0.pdf

Hydrogen generation from "steam" and iron Performed as a school-lab experiment without "molten" iron:http://64.233.187.104/search?q...&cd=8

Patent involving the process, without "molten" iron:"The generation of hydrogen by passing steam at or about 700.degree. C. over a bed of iron is well known in the art.""a hydrogen-generating process wherein H.sub.2 O is passed over a bed of iron material. The hydrogen generating process uses a catalyst, or freshly-ground iron material, or both, and generates the hydrogen for the fuel cell in situ at lower-than-normal temperatures when the H.sub.2 O reacts with the iron material." http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6093501.html

In a vehicle application, the hydrogen is generated by passing water or low-temperature steam over desirably freshly-ground iron, which then becomes iron oxide."

"The instantaneous grinding of the iron particles in situ is necessitated because iron becomes rapidly oxidized after grinding."http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6093501.html

Also: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xpl...29811

Evidently, iron will oxidize about the same rate in air, or in a steam-atmosphere. The addition of water to the piles from the top or pools of it at the bottom thus may have served as an additional source of oxygen, upon combining with hot steel or aluminum.

The hydrogen generated may have then combined with other materials in the piles, or with oxygen in air, to produce additional heat. (Net thermal result would be same as directly oxidizing iron with oxygen). - Mark Ferran"