What Congress Should Cut

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IBCoupe
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PalmerWMD wrote:Sorry yet an additonal posts from reading others:

Since we cut the F22 at only 187 we need the F35 to have a modern plane .
We already cut the rates for F18, F16 and even ended F15 produton in expectation that the F35 will come.
The cost for F35 is in line with what such modern sytems cost and is actually less per unit than say the Eurofighter which is vbeing afforded by countreis with smaller budgets thna us.

Also the F35 is a multinationla collbarative efforts and other goverments have spent money and committed resources based on our contractual obligations ot go through with this modernization.

Cutting the F35 would mean :
alienating allies and getting them to buy thier stuff from France of Russia.
Losing trust by our partners
incurring contractual penalties
and relgating ourslevs to second power status becuase thats what you call a country that does not have its own fighter production line which is exactly where we will be in a few years if we dont get the F35.
All good points, and all should be considered when looking at programs to be cut. This is something I went on about a while ago: we have these programs for good reasons. No Senator or Congressman says, "You know what? We've got too much money, and I think we should just go out and burn a pile of it."

Which is why we need to pay for them. If the cost is too high, then we should cut them, but if it's worth the cost, then we need to start sacrificing a bit to actually see that they're paid for. The problem isn't that we have too much spending (though there are most likely things that aren't worth their costs), it's that our spending outpaces our earnings. We have a budget imbalance, and the only reason to call it a "spending imbalance" is to score political points and to distract from actually fixing the real problem.


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IBCoupe wrote: Weather. This is not an argument based in good science.
Point conceded .... but then none of the global warming facade is based in good science
IBCoupe wrote: No, Stebo, that's what Republicans are trying to tell you. And they have absolutely no history of lying about anything to further a political agenda.
Sorry but that doesn't hold water, vapor form or otherwise, a challenge for you: Give me zero line temperature that Boston, MA should be in order to be considered at it equilibrium point. Figure that out, then MAYBE you can tell me whether we are globally warmer or cooler than we should be. And in an effort to make it a bit easier, if you dont know Boston, pick another town, any one will do.
IBCoupe wrote: Look in a mirror? Micro-evolution, given enough time (say, 200 billion years, which is to a million what 200,000 is to 1), becomes "macro-evolution."
Great, you've widdled your compare contrast skills a bit, I didnt ask the difference between the 2, I asked for any shred of credible proof of the later.

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stebo0728 wrote:Point conceded .... but then none of the global warming facade is based in good science
Point out where the scientific method was abandoned, and then you'll have a point. 'Til then, you're talking out of your a**.
stebo0728 wrote:Sorry but that doesn't hold water, vapor form or otherwise, a challenge for you: Give me zero line temperature that Boston, MA should be in order to be considered at it equilibrium point. Figure that out, then MAYBE you can tell me whether we are globally warmer or cooler than we should be. And in an effort to make it a bit easier, if you dont know Boston, pick another town, any one will do.
f*** if I know. I do know that we have a naturally wobbling orbit around the sun, which leads to a gradually fluctuating climate, and based on the planet's instant wobble, we're a lot warmer than we ought to be. The only thing different about this point in our wobble now than before is us. The thing about "global" warming, Stebo, is that you kinda have to look at all the samples. Now, maybe you'd like a few more ice core samples (as would all of us), but I'm not going to cherry-pick data and make your bad arguments for you.
stebo0728 wrote:Great, you've widdled your compare contrast skills a bit, I didnt ask the difference between the 2, I asked for any shred of credible proof of the later.
No, you asked for evidence of macroevolution. Type more carefully. Once again: look in the mirror. Macroevolution is nothing more than the accumulation of a great many microevolutions. What exactly are you looking for when you ask for evidence? Birds are not dinosaurs. We do not live in the ocean. What do you want?

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stebo0728
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IBCoupe wrote: Point out where the scientific method was abandoned, and then you'll have a point. 'Til then, you're talking out of your a**.
Dont we all talk our of our a**'s? We've done thing muliple times now, and I'm not about to smear this thread with brilliant study material for you on the issue, but even if one were to concede that global warming exists then look at the gameplan we've been handed to deal with it. Garbage treaties like Kyoto, please, thats not change, thats global redistribution of wealth at its finest. No, either the problem is trumped up, or its real and being taken grave advantage of, I tend to fall into the trumped up camp.
IBCoupe wrote: f*** if I know. I do know that we have a naturally wobbling orbit around the sun, which leads to a gradually fluctuating climate, and based on the planet's instant wobble, we're a lot warmer than we ought to be. The only thing different about this point in our wobble now than before is us. The thing about "global" warming, Stebo, is that you kinda have to look at all the samples. Now, maybe you'd like a few more ice core samples (as would all of us), but I'm not going to cherry-pick data and make your bad arguments for you.
Thank you, I already knew you didnt know, no one knows, yet we pour so much money into trying to state the opposite, if we just try to run things as clean as we can, then any problem will aleviate itself, but until climate change seperates from politics, you will never get clean science on it.
IBCoupe wrote: No, you asked for evidence of macroevolution. Type more carefully. Once again: look in the mirror. Macroevolution is nothing more than the accumulation of a great many microevolutions. What exactly are you looking for when you ask for evidence? Birds are not dinosaurs. We do not live in the ocean. What do you want?
No you did not prove anything with your statement, the fact that dinosaurs once existed, and we now exist is not PROOF that one evolved to the other, sorry but fossil records are sketchy at best, most models are built with extremely limited bone fragments, again, bad guesses built upon ever cascading bad guesses. But since you are having a bit of trouble, let me guide you a bit.

1) Show any evidence that amino acids can be randomly generated and live for any amount of time greater than picoseconds
2) Show that there is some miraculous method for 2 creatures with differing chromosomal data being able to mate.
3) Show some way that irreduceably complex systems have any prayer of forming and sustaining their function in nature, one slow step at a time

Way too many holes to consider the book closed.

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Oh Stebo, evolution is a fact but it can't take your beliefs away.

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stebo0728 wrote:Dont we all talk our of our a**'s? We've done thing muliple times now, and I'm not about to smear this thread with brilliant study material for you on the issue, but even if one were to concede that global warming exists then look at the gameplan we've been handed to deal with it. Garbage treaties like Kyoto, please, thats not change, thats global redistribution of wealth at its finest. No, either the problem is trumped up, or its real and being taken grave advantage of, I tend to fall into the trumped up camp.
That was a nice attempt at evasion. Point out where the scientific method has been abandoned.
stebo0728 wrote:Thank you, I already knew you didnt know, no one knows, yet we pour so much money into trying to state the opposite, if we just try to run things as clean as we can, then any problem will aleviate itself, but until climate change seperates from politics, you will never get clean science on it.
We don't pour any money into proving that Boston, at this moment, is X-degrees warmer than it should be in this moment. Based on what the earth's climate did in past wobbles like this, it is, as a whole, a lot warmer with a lot more CO2 than it was the last time around. Look, here's a challenge for you: find me a better method of examining the transition from 200,000 years ago to now, and you'll have an argument. Until then you're just asking questions and hoping they can't be answered. That's no way to debate, Stebo, and it's no way to convince anyone except the weak-minded.
stebo0728 wrote:No you did not prove anything with your statement, the fact that dinosaurs once existed, and we now exist is not PROOF that one evolved to the other, sorry but fossil records are sketchy at best, most models are built with extremely limited bone fragments, again, bad guesses built upon ever cascading bad guesses. But since you are having a bit of trouble, let me guide you a bit.
You didn't ask for proof. You asked for evidence, and fossils aren't bone, they're mostly rock that has replaced bone as it has degraded over millions of years. Of course we've got extremely limited bone fragments. You're trying to make an argument about a known process. The only reason we have any record of the past is because most of it is not bone. What the hell, dude?
stebo0728 wrote:1) Show any evidence that amino acids can be randomly generated and live for any amount of time greater than picoseconds
2) Show that there is some miraculous method for 2 creatures with differing chromosomal data being able to mate.
3) Show some way that irreduceably complex systems have any prayer of forming and sustaining their function in nature, one slow step at a time
1. No.
2. It's called sex. Your mom and your dad had differing chromosomal data. We hope.
3. What's the other way?

I don't have personal research involved in this, Stebo, but I'm not running to a creationist website to get my talking points.

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I am surpised global warming aka climate change is still being debated and especilly somehow gets inserted into this thread.
it been happening for decades long befere gore stumbled on it.

I think some folks just have ideological blinders to a) refuse to agree out of principal when the libs aare all onbaord with an issue first and b) maybe for religious reason not waniting to belive humans can change the planet.

this is the only country in the world ( except maybe China ) where climate change deniers get any press time at all.

but even those (very few) climate scientists that in past years have particpated in Exxon's studies that downplayed the issue, have all since recanted and no one disagrees with this basic fact anymore that a)its occuring and b its manmade.

The notion that academics are evilly and skillfully manipulating public opinion like seasoned political operatives against the vested interests of multi billion dollar industries is absurd.

the suggestion you sometimes hear, that lots of snow somehow shows there is no global warming is simply beyong reply and deeply shakes my belief in human nature.

When I was 7 or 8 years old I once read a science fiction novel where everyone wanted to silence the scientists on some issue and I didnt think that was a plausible plot back then... Well looks like i had much to learn from human nature...


PS: Am not a liberal but a republican, but that doenst have to mean being possessed of a quasi religious belief in limitless resources and unlimited food security,... heck even w/o global warming/climate change ,just regular desertifcation caused by humans, oil scarcity (remember we basically feed oursleves with oil) unfettered population growth in the 3rd world etc,.. so even w/o global warming, things are going to get very ugly on this planet in our lifetimes.
Climate change will kill a lot of people by pushing those on already on the margins over them ..thats just the way it is
Last edited by PalmerWMD on Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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oh look
http://www.usnews.com/news/washington-w ... nding-cuts
i see so many defense cuts. so. many.

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Dang. At least they have a plan. THEY SPEND 94 MILLIONS DOLLARS ON PRINTING ?!?

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WHAT HAPPENED TO A PAPERLESS SOCIETY... HMMMMM?

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heliochrome85 wrote:global warming is real.
Prove it.
heliochrome85 wrote:evolution is real.
Prove it.
heliochrome85 wrote:science doesnt fit into your preconceieved notions of how the world works.
Actually, it does. I'm a firm believe in the scientific method, and I've even reconciled it with my faith. Not many people can do that. See, I'm an auditor and an investigator. Finding facts pays my bills.
heliochrome85 wrote:you refuse to even debate facts
Actually, I think I've done a pretty good job of it here. You might not like what I say on occasion, but you'd have bailed on me a long time ago if I refused to debate based on facts.

You're leaning more towards broad, sweeping generalizations lately, however. 'Sup wit' dat?
heliochrome85 wrote:but rather retreat to GOP talking points
I did? Where's that?
heliochrome85 wrote:to sit and actually extoll the virtues of the GOP platform
I did? Where's that?
heliochrome85 wrote:id take a coward over a liar anyday, and i do.
Good thing you weren't around in the 1770's. ;) I hear Canada and France are full of them... then again, there's probably some liars interspersed here and there as well.

p.s. Show me your favorite politician and I'll show you a liar. Fact. ;)

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I say legalize pot and tax it, that would create jobs lower the crime rate and generate revenue.

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bigbadberry3 wrote:Oh Stebo, evolution is a fact but it can't take your beliefs away.
We must work with different definitions of the word "fact". The left does favor a more liberal definition of the word, do you? I would assume you are falling into the same trap most people do, the logical trap of assuming that A) Microevolution is proven fact, and B)Macroevolution well, its evolution, C) Therefore Macroevolution must also be true
That doesnt work, you must be able to grasp the fact that the two schools of mutation are completely different.

Now with that said, I'll say this. As much as I fight and debate about evolution as an explanation of life, I do so based on its lack of scientific data, empirical data, dont hand me this must be so this must be therefore that has to be garbage, give it a good foundation if you want me to buy it. It may very well be that evolution is "fact" as you say, but its certainly not PROVEN fact, and it certainly carries no more logical substance than any other explanation. If it IS fact, then we have a case of finding a truth, but not knowing why its a truth or how it worked. And a BIG case of "well gosh this is true but we sure cant recreate any of it to prove it"

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stebo0728 wrote:
bigbadberry3 wrote:Oh Stebo, evolution is a fact but it can't take your beliefs away.
We must work with different definitions of the word "fact". The left does favor a more liberal definition of the word, do you? I would assume you are falling into the same trap most people do, the logical trap of assuming that A) Microevolution is proven fact, and B)Macroevolution well, its evolution, C) Therefore Macroevolution must also be true
That doesnt work, you must be able to grasp the fact that the two schools of mutation are completely different.

Now with that said, I'll say this. As much as I fight and debate about evolution as an explanation of life, I do so based on its lack of scientific data, empirical data, dont hand me this must be so this must be therefore that has to be garbage, give it a good foundation if you want me to buy it. It may very well be that evolution is "fact" as you say, but its certainly not PROVEN fact, and it certainly carries no more logical substance than any other explanation. If it IS fact, then we have a case of finding a truth, but not knowing why its a truth or how it worked. And a BIG case of "well gosh this is true but we sure cant recreate any of it to prove it"
A) Microevolution is a fact that is experimentally proven. I'm not sure why you seem to think otherwise?

B) Macro evolution is microevloution over a very long time.

C) I understand the two are different bodies but they are related.

Just because science can't provide you with documentation of every species that ever existed doesn't equate a lack of evidence.

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House GOP group proposes $2.5T in budget cuts

http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... -/1?csp=hf

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Stebo, how would you like proof? Unfortunately, there aren't any 200 million year studies out there. If you believe in evolution on a micro scale, what happens at the end of that scale? Once something evolves in a small way all evolution stops? There are stairwells in the Sears tower in Chicago. I've walked up a flight before. And while I've never taken them to the top, I wouldn't need to climb them all to know they get there...

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bigbadberry3 wrote:
A) Microevolution is a fact that is experimentally proven. I'm not sure why you seem to think otherwise?

B) Macro evolution is microevloution over a very long time.

C) I understand the two are different bodies but they are related.

Just because science can't provide you with documentation of every species that ever existed doesn't equate a lack of evidence.
A) I think you misunderstood, or I misspoke, I have no qualm with Microevolution

B) Wrong. Macroevolution required additional, hugely theoretical leaps to occur. If it were simply microevolution over time, there would be no new species, Macroevolution requires new species, chromosomal shifts, not to mention trying to build a "functional mouse trap" one component at a time, but requiring it to be completely functional at each step of the game. Just doesnt work that way.

C) Hopefully B clears that up a bit.

And my qualm is not lack of fossil evidence, its lack of explanation or theory for the middle ground. Its like they said I left Seattle and somehow ended up in DC, but no idea what towns I travelled through. You cant create a theory and treat it as gospel when it has as many holes in its theory as evolution does. Maybe we'll get there one day who knows, and if so maybe we'll earn the right to declare it fact, but we sure dont have that right at the present time.

Furthermore, NONE of what is proposed to have happened can be successfully recreated in any lab, why is that?

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stebo0728 wrote:
bigbadberry3 wrote:
A) Microevolution is a fact that is experimentally proven. I'm not sure why you seem to think otherwise?

B) Macro evolution is microevloution over a very long time.

C) I understand the two are different bodies but they are related.

Just because science can't provide you with documentation of every species that ever existed doesn't equate a lack of evidence.
A) I think you misunderstood, or I misspoke, I have no qualm with Microevolution

B) Wrong. Macroevolution required additional, hugely theoretical leaps to occur. If it were simply microevolution over time, there would be no new species, Macroevolution requires new species, chromosomal shifts, not to mention trying to build a "functional mouse trap" one component at a time, but requiring it to be completely functional at each step of the game. Just doesnt work that way.

C) Hopefully B clears that up a bit.

And my qualm is not lack of fossil evidence, its lack of explanation or theory for the middle ground. Its like they said I left Seattle and somehow ended up in DC, but no idea what towns I travelled through. You cant create a theory and treat it as gospel when it has as many holes in its theory as evolution does. Maybe we'll get there one day who knows, and if so maybe we'll earn the right to declare it fact, but we sure dont have that right at the present time.

Furthermore, NONE of what is proposed to have happened can be successfully recreated in any lab, why is that?
A) Ok.

B) Here is our underlying issue. A species has thousands if not millions of a type of organism living at any given time. Even a few small changes at a given time will snowball given millions of years and generations. Discrete steps are not to plausible evolutionary (discrete levels are true for physics surprisingly and would be 110% correct for your Seattle and DC proposal) but a spectrum is more realistic. See Apple Bonker for a good example.

Mutations are random occurrences. Evolution took thousands and thousands of years of multiple random mutations. Scientists can only try to mix and match playing with genes for a short period of time compared to mother natures lab. Even with that, genetics isn't a fully developed field so it's not like scientists can test every single possible gene within a day. Some scientists will devote themselves to one gene for a career and still have few important results!

I like to think of genes as the lottery sometimes. Millions of possible combinations of numbers and you get to choose 1. Millions of people lose but every once in a while someone makes bank.

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AZhitman wrote:House GOP group proposes $2.5T in budget cuts

http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... -/1?csp=hf
2.5T over 10 years means they need to dig deeper when they will probably spend 3x that in additional spending.

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bigbadberry3 wrote: A) Ok.

B) Here is our underlying issue. A species has thousands if not millions of a type of organism living at any given time. Even a few small changes at a given time will snowball given millions of years and generations. Discrete steps are not to plausible evolutionary (discrete levels are true for physics surprisingly and would be 110% correct for your Seattle and DC proposal) but a spectrum is more realistic. See Apple Bonker for a good example.

Mutations are random occurrences. Evolution took thousands and thousands of years of multiple random mutations. Scientists can only try to mix and match playing with genes for a short period of time compared to mother natures lab. Even with that, genetics isn't a fully developed field so it's not like scientists can test every single possible gene within a day. Some scientists will devote themselves to one gene for a career and still have few important results!

I like to think of genes as the lottery sometimes. Millions of possible combinations of numbers and you get to choose 1. Millions of people lose but every once in a while someone makes bank.
You dont seem to be understanding whats required for Macroevolution to work. Minute changes can only snowball within a given species, they CANT cross species, and CANT create new species, at least thats the unproven, and even very vaguely theorized part. As we already well know, 2 creatures of varying chromosomal length CANNOT mate. So when, how, do new species, with differing chormosomal lengh occur? And when they occur, how do they survive unable to mate? (As it would take insurmountable odds for a male and female to evolve in the same time and proximity window for mating to occur) Thats the difference no one wants to look at, chromosomes, and how many, that matters, and it matters fundamentally.

Your spectrum means nothing except withing a given species.

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stebo0728 wrote:
bigbadberry3 wrote: A) Ok.

B) Here is our underlying issue. A species has thousands if not millions of a type of organism living at any given time. Even a few small changes at a given time will snowball given millions of years and generations. Discrete steps are not to plausible evolutionary (discrete levels are true for physics surprisingly and would be 110% correct for your Seattle and DC proposal) but a spectrum is more realistic. See Apple Bonker for a good example.

Mutations are random occurrences. Evolution took thousands and thousands of years of multiple random mutations. Scientists can only try to mix and match playing with genes for a short period of time compared to mother natures lab. Even with that, genetics isn't a fully developed field so it's not like scientists can test every single possible gene within a day. Some scientists will devote themselves to one gene for a career and still have few important results!

I like to think of genes as the lottery sometimes. Millions of possible combinations of numbers and you get to choose 1. Millions of people lose but every once in a while someone makes bank.
You dont seem to be understanding whats required for Macroevolution to work. Minute changes can only snowball within a given species, they CANT cross species, and CANT create new species, at least thats the unproven, and even very vaguely theorized part. As we already well know, 2 creatures of varying chromosomal length CANNOT mate. So when, how, do new species, with differing chormosomal lengh occur? And when they occur, how do they survive unable to mate? (As it would take insurmountable odds for a male and female to evolve in the same time and proximity window for mating to occur) Thats the difference no one wants to look at, chromosomes, and how many, that matters, and it matters fundamentally.

Your spectrum means nothing except withing a given species.
Insurmountable odds aren't something that can be thrown into the wind given enough chances and time. Can you show me proof that every single organism that has,currently existed in the past 13 billion years or so never mutated such that it could possibly with the slightest chance produce some new offspring and live to produce more offspring? And, to get back on topic, make sure you only use money from the private sector to assist your research.

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I'll get right one that

CAREER CHANGE!!

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apparently stebo studies from Texas School Board Approved textbooks.


theories are science's best explanation for natural phenomina. they are validated and invalidated regularly, and its the pursuit of more evidence which is what you are proposing to be cut. just because they cant explain why you ended up in DC, doesnt mean they wont ever figure it out. tomorrow, one scientist may find evidence that you stopped off in portland. then the day after, another scientist finds evidence that you stopped in kansas city. the theory then ebecomes you travelled from seattle to DC by way of Portland and Kansas City. Does it fully explain the trip? no. but it does explain some of the trip. These things take time and money. you want us to be strong as a country? cutting science budgets isnt going to help us become strong.

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heliochrome85 wrote:apparently stebo studies from Texas School Board Approved textbooks.


theories are science's best explanation for natural phenomina. they are validated and invalidated regularly, and its the pursuit of more evidence which is what you are proposing to be cut. just because they cant explain why you ended up in DC, doesnt mean they wont ever figure it out. tomorrow, one scientist may find evidence that you stopped off in portland. then the day after, another scientist finds evidence that you stopped in kansas city. the theory then ebecomes you travelled from seattle to DC by way of Portland and Kansas City. Does it fully explain the trip? no. but it does explain some of the trip. These things take time and money. you want us to be strong as a country? cutting science budgets isnt going to help us become strong.
Ok, so furthering my ugly traveling analogy, lets assume scientists are given the task of determining where I had dinner, and based on the assumption (best guess) that I passed through Kansas City around dinner time, they formulate a hypothesis that I ate at the Western Sizzler in Kansas City for dinner. Only later we discover I never passed through Kansas City to begin with. Only now theres a whole generation of poor school kids endoctrinated to believe I at at Western Sizzler, Kansas City.

There's your major problem. I dont have a problem with making first level theories, and working to prove or disprove them. The problem comes in when you start increases the unstable foundation by adding levels of unproven, upon lower levels of unproven.

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this is what you dont undestand about science. theories are not publicized at will. they are only taught in schools once there is evidence for them, and are generally accepted by the scientific community. you don't hear kids learning about every JFK-assasination theory? Thats why kids are also not being taught that the earth is 6,000 years old. There is no scientific evidence or acceptance, and so its got no value.

to further your analogy, you dont see me saying unequivocally, that you stopped in oklahoma city. and if i did, who would believe me? i guess thats why im not understanding your concern. these sort of unsubstantiated theories are kinda weeded out by boht the scientific community, and our social undestanding of the world.

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audtatious
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Guys, this forum is not the place to discuss creation or evolution. While some religion always sneaks in we don't need to hash it out here.

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heliochrome85
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you are right matt. i was just answering his questions.

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Well I was about ready to nix it anyway seeing as I've completely hijacked the thread, but to be fair, I wasnt making this a religious debate at all. The science stands (or doesnt stand) for itself without bothering with religion. Unless you assume by arguing against evolution automatically makes me argue FOR God. Either way, we tizzied with it for a while, it was fun, no feelings were hurt (at least I hope). On with the next topic :D

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PalmerWMD
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AZhitman wrote:House GOP group proposes $2.5T in budget cuts

http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... -/1?csp=hf
Thats an interetsing proposal. I'd like to see more details.

I like the part about cutting federal workers.

Some are great, but there are soo many bad examples.
people being hired not for competence but because theya re already in the system.. or worse.

A couple years ago I met a female GS11 (which is about 80k a yr plus excellent benefits+retirement and automatic promotions). Her job was to advise businesses how to become more efficient.

Was she a degreed industrial engineer?
No, just a BS in business Administration (at most if memory serves)
Did she have <any> experience running any business even a lemonade stand?
No.

She would spend all day in the same bldg i worked in, twiddling her thumbs and BS'ing with the secretaries and often leaving early.
Just a rock warming a chair! :poke:

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bigbadberry3
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PalmerWMD wrote:
AZhitman wrote:House GOP group proposes $2.5T in budget cuts

http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... -/1?csp=hf
Thats an interetsing proposal. I'd like to see more details.

I like the part about cutting federal workers.

Some are great, but there are soo many bad examples.
people being hired not for competence but because theya re already in the system.. or worse.

A couple years ago I met a female GS11 (which is about 80k a yr plus excellent benefits+retirement and automatic promotions). Her job was to advise businesses how to become more efficient.

Was she a degreed industrial engineer?
No, just a BS in business Administration (at most if memory serves)
Did she have <any> experience running any business even a lemonade stand?
No.

She would spend all day in the same bldg i worked in, twiddling her thumbs and BS'ing with the secretaries and often leaving early.
Just a rock warming a chair! :poke:
I think you'll find that in any large corporation. :poke:


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