Welcome to socialized medicine, America.

[dusred]

Looks like the House just passed the Health Care bill. Looks like we will all be very busy this November throwing some asses out of office. With unemployment at 15% by then these bafoons probably wont' be able to find another job.

[smockers83]

Whatever happens in November won't matter. It's done. We've passed the point of no return and quite honestly, it doesn't matter who holds the majority anymore, they just voted our country into nonexistence in the future.

However, I wouldn't call it socialized quite yet. Maybe in another decade or two, but not yet.

[joe603]

What's the difference between the government making health care decisions for me or my insurance company? I'm glad it's regulated now...hopefully they don't screw up and my premium will go down.

[WDRacing]

Looks like the House just passed the Health Care bill. Looks like we will all be very busy this November throwing some asses out of office. With unemployment at 15% by then these bafoons probably wont' be able to find another job.

They don't need another job. If they serve 1 single term they retire with 100%. So they will continue to make the same salary after Nov regardless of their position.

[mattblancarte]

I don't know about you guys, but I love tax increases. Paying Uncle Sam just makes me feel so warm and fuzzy inside.

[jedimind240]

This bill is no where near socialized, please tell me how this is any more socialized than the old system. please also tell me how unsocialized we are when you drive on socialized roads, get protection from socialized police and fire departments, and have your children most likely sent to socialized schools, also eat food that is tried to be made safe by the Socialist FDA, don't have to breath smog because of the Socialist EPA, and get socialized medicine and income after the age of 65. How unsocialized are we, and is socialism really the worst thing in the world, when every other industrialized country uses socialized healthcare and its cheaper and provides for healthier citizens and longer lives for people in these socialized healthcare system http://www.oecd.org/statistics....html here are actual numbers and stats from the evil other socialist countries like canada, great britain, and japan.

Don't claim this little bill is really gonna change your life, it could be cheaper and better in a single payer system, but they get called socialist. People are scared of the word socialism because its supposed to be connected to communism which was the great evil for so long. People tend to be taught capitalism is the best system because their born in this system. No where in the constitution does it say america is a capitalist society, we just accepted it.

[HashiriyaS14]

They don't need another job. If they serve 1 single term they retire with 100%. So they will continue to make the same salary after Nov regardless of their position.

Wait...really?

They don't have to wait until 65 or something for that pension to kick in? Can you provide a link for this. That sounds insane....I think I'm going to run for Congress....

[dusred]

This bill is no where near socialized, please tell me how this is any more socialized than the old system.

Every one is required to buy health care. That is borderline socialism. Your money is your private property. Socialism is a system of government where there is no private property. In a free society the government can't tell you what to do with your private property (money).

Quote »and is socialism really the worst thing in the world, when every other industrialized country uses socialized healthcare and its cheaper and provides for healthier citizens and longer lives for people in these socialized healthcare system[/quote]Orly? What about the 3 year wait for hip replacement surgery over in England? Is that what healthier citizens means? What about the 75% taxes they pay? The government has never ran any business efficiently and therefore shouldn't be taking over one of the largest industries in the nation. And using other "industrialized" nations as an example of successful health care systems simply won't fly. People from Europe come to the US for health care because their local health care system is a failure.

Quote »Don't claim this little bill is really gonna change your life.[/quote] That "little bill" is 1990 pages long.

Not having efficient health care will certainly change my life. Also I will be paying assloads more in taxes.

Quote »People tend to be taught capitalism is the best system because their born in this system.[/quote]In the schools and universities capitalism is demonized. However, I've yet to see a system that works better. History says that Socialism (the opposite of capitalism, right?) leads to poverty while capitalism leads to prosperity.

Quote » No where in the constitution does it say america is a capitalist society, we just accepted it. [/quote]ORLY!? The Constitution is written and crafted around capitalism because capitalism is the only truly free system of government. Our founding fathers came here to escape governmental oppression and formed a capitalistic society. It may not be a perfect system but it is the most perfect system that exists in my opinion.

When you have to use bribery, arm twisting, and unconstitutional tactics (reconciliation) to pass a bill that the overwhelming majority of the people don't want you've just gotta assume that there is something wrong with the bill.

[srellim234]

Tell your "governement can't tell you what to do with your private property" spiel to the IRS on April 15 and see how far that gets you.

For day in, day out health care those single payer systems are working for people in other countries. Those who come here for care are not the average, hard working citizens who pay their taxes They're usually wealthy people who can afford the luxury of coming here to a top-notch facility for premium care that is out of reach to our own average citizens. Your attempt to pass them off as average Joes who come here becuse our overall care is better is what doesn't fly.

And, by the way, we do not have a capitalistic system. It is a plutarchy and incredibly flawed.

Were you fine when a supposedly conservative, Republican controlled Congress was setting records for using the reconciliation process?

[dusred]

Tell your "governement can't tell you what to do with your private property" spiel to the IRS on April 15 and see how far that gets you.

I believe when the IRS was founded the government overstepped their bounds, also. The IRS is a different thread. I think I'm safe to say that nobody here likes the IRS. In fact It is safe to say that NOBODY ANYWHERE likes them.

Quote »Those who come here for care are not the average, hard working citizens who pay their taxes[/quote] Are you implying that rich people don't pay their taxes?

Quote »Your attempt to pass them off as average Joes who come here because our overall care is better is what doesn't fly.[/quote]The average Joe would come here if they could. Maybe once you have some disability like a bad hip you will understand what I'm talking about. Imagine having a migraine headache and waiting 3 years for a cure. Hip pain is extremely painful and waiting 3 years for replacement surgery is unacceptable. My mother and grandmother both have suffered from hip pain so I'm somewhat familiar with it.

Quote »Were you fine when a supposedly conservative, Republican controlled Congress was setting records for using the reconciliation process?[/quote]Had I known the process going on of course I would have opposed it. I think it's unconstitutional. In the past it has been used on little bills here and there - and I'll point out here that John McCain (not that I give a rats a** for him) has used it in the past to get bills through - but never has it been used to fundamentally change our nation.

[srellim234]

1. Whether you like the IRS or not is irrelevant to your argument that we don't have a socialistic system in place here, that the government can't tell you what to do with your private property. It can and it does.

2. Many rich take advantage of every loophole they can since they can afford to hire people to find those tax-free investments that provide tax free income loopholes. The only way it gets fixed is when we implement a flat rate tax structure, with no loopholes and no taxes on corporations. Corporations are NOT people and should not be afforded the same rights. Once the corporate money winds up in the hands of an individual, whethr it becomes payroll or dividends or whatever it should be taxed one time. Whether it's income tax or we drop the income tax in favor of a national sales tax, I don't care. Just make it flat rate, no exemptions, and eliminate the other tax.

3. The average Joe is getting adequate care in his country, and would NOT come here for the average illness or emergency room visit. Which is a huge % of care that is given in any medical care system. Anectodatally, we can talk all we want about it. The clowns at Fox and MSNBC live off the propaganda they can create from individual anectdotes.

Don't tell me about hip pain problems. Both of my parents have had hip replacements here. My mom is originally from Spain, where she has quite a few relatives over 90 years old still living. Who got hip replacements under their national healthcare system and enjoy the healthcare coverage within that system.

Here are the results of a Gallup poll that will start weaning you off of the right wing propaganda you've been hearing regarding how dissatisfied people in national healthcare are with their healthcare.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/117....aspx

Overall the average person is quite satisfied in most countries.

4. If you don't like the reconciliation process and the other things the gov't is doing, the only way to solve it is to drive both the Republicans and the Democrats out of every elected government position. Unfortunately, as was proved in discussions here prior to the Presidential election, the majority of the people on this forum don't have the cajones to do it. They continue to think that voting for the same party structure and people whose allegiance is to the party instead of country is somehow going to change things.

[dusred]

Don't tell me about hip pain problems. Both of my parents have had hip replacements here. My mom is originally from Spain, where she has quite a few relatives over 90 years old still living. Who got hip replacements under their national healthcare system and enjoy the healthcare coverage within that system.

Lets have some more details. How long ago were the surgeries done and how long was the wait after they qualified for the surgeries?

Quote »Here are the results of a Gallup poll that will start weaning you off of the right wing propaganda you've been hearing regarding how dissatisfied people in national healthcare are with their healthcare. [/quote]Instead of calling it propaganda why don't you tell me what is propaganda about it? You calling it propaganda is your opinion.

- It is a FACT that with a socialistic health care system the efficiency and quality of health care goes down (look at England for example)

- It is a FACT that with the new health care system I will have to pay for my neighbors abortions.

- It is a FACT that the majority of Americans didn't want this health care bill.

Quote »Overall the average person is quite satisfied in most countries.[/quote]The average person in other countries have never been here to America to experience our system. They have what they have and they deal with it.

Quote »4. If you don't like the reconciliation process and the other things the gov't is doing, the only way to solve it is to drive both the Republicans and the Democrats out of every elected government position. Unfortunately, as was proved in discussions here prior to the Presidential election, the majority of the people on this forum don't have the cajones to do it. They continue to think that voting for the same party structure and people whose allegiance is to the party instead of country is somehow going to change things. [/quote]I don't care if it is a Democrat or a Republican. If they support unconstitutional bills, laws, tactics, ect they should have their asses thrown out of office. They took an oath to uphold the Constitution and if they break that oath they should be thrown out. And mind you I'm not necessarily thrilled with the republican party. There are a few that I think are doing a good job but the majority of Republicans need to be replaced. We need to drain the swamp in Washington and get some fresh water. Since it's on my mind I'll quote Ronald Reagan (I'm pretty sure he said it, correct me if I'm wrong): "Politicians are like diapers, the both need changing regularly and for the same reason".

edit-

oh, and on your Gallup poll notice how the US has one of the highest satisfaction rates. If we had mild health care reform I have no doubt that rate would go up into the 90's. We need to fix the current system, not create a new one.

[heliochrome85]

i think the key difference between NHS, which is found in england, and what is being instituted, is that in England, everyone has the same policy. In the US, what is being proposed, is for there to be a basic standard of care for citizens. Should they choose to pay out of pocket and seek better care, they are free to do so, but if someone came into the hospital for a non-life threatening issue, the no longer are turned away.

when i read the polls, the only thing i see is that the democrats lost control of the debate. its tough to argue the merits of your idea when those who are controlling the discussion call it cataclysmic, apocalyptic, and other fire and brimstone terms.

I suspect, if the debate was about the merits of the bill, and what it will mean for John Q Public, and Grandma/Grandpa Public, people will quickly change their minds. I dont discount that people can be opposed to it, but i just dont think that the political landscape in the united states is conducive for legitimate debate. politics in the united states has become the art of the exchange of insults and feigned outrage. how sad.

[dusred]

I don't necessarily agree with you but I still think you have legitimate points. I'm not all into English history but if you look into the history of England I'll bet their socialized health care system started very similar to the way ours started - with the best of intentions.

Tell me, Helio, how this bill will affect you as a Doctor (or a Doctor in training)? I'm assuming you have plans to come practice in the US.

PS It's good to see you around again.

[heliochrome85]

my feelings are relatively irrelevant, but i will say this. there are far too many citizens in the US who die of very treatable illnesses because they do not have access to affordable prevatative medicine. what do i mean? For example, in the past few years, as some of the mods on here who are slightly older than you and i can attest to, primary care doctors have been pushing for more screening of diseases like colon cancer. this is done annually by something called a colonoscopy. Here is a breakdown of costs: http://colonoscopycosts.com/

in any case, as you can see, these are very expensive tests, but their cost pales in comparison to what a cancer treatment costs. if left undiagnosed, colon cancer can quickly spread to the rest of the body. this is usually fatal because the patient shows no signs of illness. IF this patient was on medicare/medicaid, it would cost the federal government as follows (in 1996 dollars)

Initial (3 months)$28,768Maintenance (per year) $8,295Terminal (6 months)$30,563

http://www.epa.gov/oppt/coi/pubs/II_7.pdfpages 10-11

"For example, in the first year, theaverage colorectal cancer survivor incurs the costs of initial treatment($28,768) over the first three months, and then incurs nine months’ worth ofmaintenance care costs ($8,295 × 0.75 = $6,221) (see Table II.7-2). The totalcost of colorectal cancer incurred during the first year to survivors is therefore$28,768 + $6,221 = $34,989, representing the intensive medical caretreatment a patient would initially receive."

as you can see, there is a certain investment in the colonoscopy. as a taxpayer, the easiest way i can see to reduce the need for such costly live saving interventions is to cover the preventative care that most people who are insured, are able to recieve without much cost. Physicians are able to treat this cancer before it becomes an issue because ultimately, its initial presentation is a growth the size of a pea that can be easily snipped.

as a future physician (21 days before i happily return to the USSA ), i have a hard time being against soemthing that will ultimately boost the health of my patients. while yes there is the possibility of a decreased medicaid payout, the reality is that if i have a patient who comes in on deaths door and has no insurance, i wont get paid for the treatment i am required to give. Not only does the patient usually suffer significantly more due to the nature of their advanced disease state, but I suffer because its time i could be spent on a paying patient.

[n00b240]

Well Said Helio, well said. Did you rip through all your steps? Or do you dip right into residency?

[jedimind240]

I agree, well said Helio, from a person actually involved with treating healthcare problems. If everyone has access to healthcare then everyone can become a productive part of society, but if your unhealthy because of lack of care for treatable diseases and ailments you are less productive, it is nothing but a benefit to capitalism to have everyone healthy.

And to dusred, have you ever had to use the NHS (National Health Service) first hand, can you say from experience that its horrible. I've talked or heard from plenty of British people and people from industrialized countries who are healthy and like not having to pay out of pocket expenses at the hospital.