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Discuss topics related to the CA18DE and CA18DET series engines.
boost_boy
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Amidst my busy life with kids in college, work and still building behind the scenes, I find the time to throw some coin at some of my already stale projects :yesnod . I found this beautiful rarety and thought "why not" and work some of my own magic. And seeing that I love the surgical aspect when it comes to engines, it is time to throw this thing on an engine stand, so that we can all solve this mystery of building a competent CA20DET. I'm going to incorporate the help of the whole CA family when I get stuck, so prepare yourselves and let's make this thing happen, so that we can (not so secretively) add an alternative brethren to our beloved CA DOHC family. In case some are wondering what it is, it is a brand new CA20 short block. Yes, it is brand spanking new and as soon as it gets here, surgery begins.

http://cas08.mainstreetcommerce.com/3.9 ... f11&ebay=1


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float_6969
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Nice! That thing is beautiful.

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Izento
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Oh wow!!! I suppose you'll be borrowing a lot of information from the few CA20 threads that are incomplete on here. Sounds like the hardest thing to figure out will be different rods and the whole timing belt thing. Also, I dunno if the gearbox is the same as the ca18, but if not, I guess you could just weld a CA20 bellhousing on a CA18 tranny. If you lived closer I'd give a helping hand, but I'll just sit back and watch this thing unravel. I'm rooting for this one to actually be finished. I don't think I've ever seen a finished CA20 thread. Even a CD20 conversion for that matter.

I also dislike how all the CA20 threads end up with skeptics simply saying it's easier to slap in a SR and call it a day. Sometimes that's not the point of it all. We should be able to see if this is even a viable option for people if parts don't become to expensive in this build.

**Edit**
Scratch that! This thread got it working!
ca20det-build-pics-t165897-30.html

4G63 rods and custom pistons with a toyota timing belt. All the pictures don't work though, so I can't even visualize what is going on in that thread. This should get you a good idea as to what's ahead though!

dash
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going from memory, if iirc a couple hi strung ca20 builds detailed on ns.com way back.
Interestingly, both went onto sr20s afterwards and agreed the sr was a much better, more practical and sensible path to a 2L
Same way a sr guy crosses over to a ka24, rather than a bigger di$placement $r 2.2L
http://www.speedhunters.com/2012/10/a-9 ... atsun-510/
oem probably always the smarter road to bigger displacement, but a "diehard" is usually driven by passion, not logic - lol

boost_boy
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First of all, this "Secret Squirrel" behavior about what timing belt works with this thing is beyond me. I bought this engine because (A) It is a brand new short block (B) I've been wanting to do this for years, but I had no time for experiments (C) As an avid enthusiast of this motor, it is part of my responsibility to push the envelope on evolvement and share as much as I can without foolishly misleading others to take a path that I wouldn't take myself and (D) For the price, I couldn't pass this up even if I didn't have the coin to make the purchase. It is awesome opportunity to fickle around with this thing and possibly bounce some ideas around with various engine builders in my neck of the woods.

Did I tell you guys I hate timing chained engines? I have a VQ35DE in my maxima that I rebuilt a couple of years ago and fortunately after 85k miles, it's still running strong, but too much labor involved with these engines. And god forbid if something goes wrong, to re-open these things is extremely labor intensive, so the KA and SR variants are non-existent in my plans. And besides, 1809cc engines I've built for customers are/were putting down 700+hp with my own car putting out over 500whp with stock rods, .010 over oem pistons and moderately worked head. Most guys around won't even get to 300hp before something lets go or they get bored of the engine or whatever.

For all of you remember this, you're only going to get out of these engines what you put into them. This means if you take a stock/used CA18DET and expect it to perform and behave like one of the RB variants or even the SR20 things, you have already failed. This engine has been around longer than most of you and most need updating and refreshing. You pay $1600 for a 20 something year old engine from an engine importer, throw it in your car and expect it to take the abuse you're expecting it to take? Not going to happen and you are going to spend some really good money updating and refreshing this motor. And labor, let's not talk about labor! I now have to adjust the cost of my work just to keep up with the market which means things will have to change and change soon. So if you're going to pay more, why not pay for something a little more innovative. That's where i'm going with this to try and give you guys more solid and useful information on this upgrade. By the way, if your engine is poorly tuned with poor man electronics, I don't car how much Pauter/Carillo rods, CP or Arias or JE or Wiseco pistons you have or even your Tomei, JUN, HKS camshafts you've installed or even you quick spooling whatever turbocharger or even your CA18, CA19, CA20, CA21 or whatever, your crap will still be still be found lacking and wanting. And you will have a fancy engine, that's weak on power because you cheaped-out in the engine management area. Spend to win or stop your biotching :werd:

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mdb4879
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Amen, I first dropped an untouched DET into my Pulsar because I ran into a good deal, and it was quick for what it was. But after I did just a stock rebuild it was a whole different machine, making more power on much less boost. I never even got to tune it and I was impressed. Next go around it's going to make twice the power and everything will be proper. I can't wait to see the results of a proper setup in a Pulsar.

Good luck Dee, I'll be keeping an eye on this. I'm sure we're all excited to see what you can come up with. If you don't mind me asking, with the troubles you've been having with compression in your other project, will this be going in you B12?

Watch out Tommey, Dee's coming for ya ;)

1200ute
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I love what you are planning Dee. I personally am sticking with the CA because it is swapped into a Datsun 1200 and it is already the largest motor I can have engineered where I live. I like any development on these engines that keep pushing the limits.

tommey
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I will be following this!
A brand new block is a dream come true i bet?

What is the height of the CA20 block?
The only thing i haven`t figured out on the CD project is the timing belt.
Maybe the stock CA belt could work if i move the tensioner or something.

boost_boy
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As soon as the block gets here, I'll get right on it. I already have my sources working on (off the shelf) belt possibilities and the range is Toyota. I just got through working on an IS300 and that timing belt has the proper spaces between the cogs and even the cam gear on the 2JZE engine lined-up perfect with CA's cam gears. My biggest concern appear to be the crank nose difference between the two cranks.

Luckily, I do have a 6 bolt lightened flywheel, I could always drill and tap the flywheel end to accept the 8 bolt, if the end has the meat available :naughty: . As for coming for Tommey, yeah right...lol. He is as good as any and have the skills and access to competent machinery to pull-off mad tricks with metals, so we all can learn from each other as well as lean on one another for guidance. My specialties are building these motors, tuning them and wiring them into their respective hosts. I am not a machinist and I don't have the skills nor access to fancy machinery like Tommey does, so everyone brings something to the CA table.

I already have machined 1G 4G63 rods on tap from an old project, so I'll be able to dig right in with measurements and whatever else it takes to see this thing through. To Mdb4879, that engine in my sentra still has some breaking in to do as it only has 54 miles on it. It still has uneven compression, but has gone up somewhat in certain cylinders. I just don't have the time to screw with that car nor it's engine, but I will. My S13 is under construction for a new digital climate control (yes I have a/c and P/S) and a new dashboard and some renovation under the hood. Seriously considering going Coil-on-plug with this thing as well, but I'll cross that path whenever I get there. As soon as the engine get here, I'll get some pics and go straight for the tapping jobs. Then after that, we can discuss some things as a family, so you all can be a part of this.

Deal?

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float_6969
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Sounds good!

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mdb4879
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Deal, and if you need any help breaking your motor in just send it my way. I can put 1000 miles on it in a week :biggrin:

boost_boy
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Good news, the CA20 is here and it is truly a brand new engine that was still in the Nissan OEM box. Pictures will follow as soon as my phone charges some...lol. It look so good, I bought another one :chuckle:

tommey
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What did it cost and how many do they have?
Waiting for photos!

boost_boy
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$99 for the short block and $175 for shipping. Putting together a nice compilation of pictures, so you guys can see what I see. Hey Tommey, you do have access to CNC machinery, correct? Trying to see what it is the easiest and most economical route to take while still building a solid engine that can withstand moderate abuse. I will upload some photos when I get home. I have already drilled and tapped the block for the idler pulley and am now waiting on the correct tap to modify the headbolt threads on the block. Unfortunately, when I attempted to drill directly in the center of the virgin spot for the idler pulley on the CA20 block, I kinda made a hole in the oil return hole from the head. No biggie, it has already been repaired and am now moving forward. But I do have to wait for an engine stand as both of mines are occupied by CA18s at the moment.

tommey
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Nice price!
Yes i have, do you want something made? :)
I am waiting for pictures!

Matej
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Luckily the CA uses a very standard timing belt tooth profile. I do not know it off the top of my head, but there are websites that give it when you search the belt part numbers.
Then you can have a custom belt made at places such as this:
http://www.bbman.com/catalog/category/timing_belts


And to add some blatant advertising, I have a brand new Ross balancer and two complete CA's that I am parting out, if you need anything. :)

tommey
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What was the problem with the headbolt thread?
Smaller?

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mdb4879
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I think with the CA20 being larger than the CA18 it can bully it's way in and take priority over one of the CA18's and steal an engine stand :chuckle:

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float_6969
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tommey wrote:What was the problem with the headbolt thread?
Smaller?
IIRC The CA20 uses the same headbolt diameter/pitch as the UK versions of the block, which is slightly larger and uses a more coarse thread pitch.

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mdb4879
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If that's the case, then wouldn't the best remedy be to order UK CA18 head studs? Also, the CA20 is a tall deck block, right? So do you think it'd still have the problem of the stud over the water pump bottoming out?

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float_6969
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Yea, it would be, LOL. AFAIK, you'll have the water pump head stud issue regardless of the block, as long as it's a CA engine series. Cutting that one stud shorter on the studs that go into the block is all you need though.

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mdb4879
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Yeah, that's what I did on my last engine. I just figured/hoped that if the deck was taller (particularly from the water pump up and the dimensions from there down were the same as a CA18) then that bolt hole would be deeper.

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float_6969
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Oh, I see what you mean now. Yea, I don't know where the difference in the deck height is

boost_boy
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Time for a little update. So amidst everything else I do with whatever spare time I can find, I managed to get the deck tapped for the CA18's head bolts and I was able to tap the timing belt side of the block for the idler pulley side. I am contemplating which way to go with this, but though will be done as I have a 2nd one waiting for me to get done with the first one. Here's some pics to give you guys some idea of what I do in my spare time.

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Brand new CA20E short block still in the box. I have two of these puppies that will be converted to CA20 DOHC motors

Image
Brand new CA20E short block fresh out of the box

Image
Virgin CA20 short block to be converted to a CA20DET

Image
CA20 block (virgin) with stock pistons

Image
CA20 block modified to mimic and accept CA16/18 DOHC timing belt tensioner

Image
CA20 block with head bolt threads modified to accept CA18 head bolts

Image
CA20 block with CA18 head bolt installed from a different view

Image
CA20 block with CA18 head bolt installed

Any questions, feel free to fire away. Tommey, I was able to find a machinist to possibly machine the CA20 crank sprocket down to a sleeve that's needed for the fitment of the CA18 DOHC crank pulley. If you want to machine some, we can arrange it as well.

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float_6969
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What's your plan for the flywheel? The CA20 crank is only a 6 bolt, right?

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mdb4879
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How do the rods and.bolts look in terms of strength compared to CA18 rods?

I didn't realize the CA20 had four valve reliefs. Is it safe to assume they're placed in the same location as the CA18 counterparts? Have you figured up what sort of compression you'll end up with?

Float, I think the added.deck.height.being above all the accessories would.make.the most sense. That way Nissan only would've had to design one casting and just machine off more material from the deck for the CA18 and CA16 blocks.

tommey
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Not sure what you meant regarding the sprocket?
Do you need to make a "bushing" to use another sprocket with a different ID?

Anyways, this looks promising.
Do you have any power goals with this?

Whats the deck height?
Depending on power goal, may i suggest using RB26 bolts instead?
I know there is no point using them unless you want big HP.

boost_boy
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What's your plan for the flywheel? The CA20 crank is only a 6 bolt, right?
I do have a lightened flywheel for the CA20, but I could use one more. Do you have one you want to sell? And yes, the CA20s I've acquired are 6-bolt.
How do the rods and.bolts look in terms of strength compared to CA18 rods?
I believe they can take some decent abuse, but not on the level of the CA18 stuff. Not more than 10psi on the pistons and not too much more for the rods.
Do you have any power goals with this?
Power goals are not important for me at this point. But I must say, The CA20 looks pretty stout and I am building it to withstand what I have to throw it. I've already ordered the pistons and rods for it. I chose to go a different rout than the 4G63 rods on because I found some that appear to spec-out more in line with the original CA20 rods less the modifications, but I will be sharing that with you guys when I get them. I purchased two sets, so if I fail, I would lose some decent coin.
Whats the deck height?
I have not measured that yet, but I will let you know when I work my way back to these CA20 blocks. Just too busy with everything else....... :wtf2:

boost_boy
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Not sure what you meant regarding the sprocket?
The sprocket I'm referring to is the crank sprocket that drives the timing bolt a.k.a lower timing belt gear. I have the sprocket from the CA20, but I needed to have them milled to a sleeve that corrects the difference in diameters between the CA18's crank nose and the CA20's crank nose. The purpose of this modifcation is to allow the use of the standard CA18DET crank pulley and crank timing sprocket/gear. With this done, I can figure out this mysterious timing belt that no one seems to want to share and I guess I could understand that. But I will be sharing whatever I do with this motor with you all and hopefully I can build it to be and do something special as well as being rugged enough for an everyday beat-down :naughty: .

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mdb4879
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For the price of these short blocks I'm tempted to buy one and build it along side you. Unfortunately I've got a while before I'll be ready to do another CA.


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