water injection

[acside]

anyone know how good of an alternative water injection instead of an intercooler is. also does anyone know the temp of the air after it passes through a single turbo that is running about 9 psi of boost. i have heard it is about 200 just wasn't sure

[Carl H]

the temp of the boost charge is going to be diffrent on any turbo and setup in general.its dependend on abient air temp as well as the efficency of the turbo, a more efficient turbo will result in a cooler charge but again ambient air (well more specifcaly where the turbo sucks the air in from) will have a large impact on it as well.water injection is a good way to suppliment a good intercooler its good for overboosting to high pressures (25-30psi) on pump gas but if the system can supply enough water then its possible to run a 'low' boost setup relying on waterinjection alone.water injection without and intercooler will never get the charge as cool as some kind of external charge cooler be it air to air or air to water.look into the aquamist systems, best systems money can buy.

[acside]

so i need higher output of the mixture or i need more water in the mixture? also do u think having water injection if it is set up right will be the same or better as having an intercooler for about 17psi on a decent turbo.

[Carl H]

read what i said above again, i already explained it.

[Sil240]

If you run a turbo car without a intercooler, your motor is going to be sucking in HOT air.And at 17 PSI your not gonna be a happy camper. Your friend is going to be visiting, your good old buddy DETONATION.

If you run a intercooler you'll have a Cooler, Denser, charge of air going into your motor.

After your get a Intercooler and you want to increase your timing or boost, and your getting hotter intake temps, a water injection would be great.

Maybe you should SEARCH and read up on how 4 stroke engines work.It will help you tune your car, and give you better knowledge if a problem should occur.Try http://www.HowStuffWorks.com

Water Injection is probably on there too..

[rotorimp]

There are many cars running water injection only(over 3 atmospheres)! I wouldn't look at water injection as just a supplement to an intercooler. This is technology dating back to the 40's--it worked then and it still works great now. The humidified air not only cools the charge air but also greatly aids in combustion. The reason that coolant is run by the TB is that -->ICE<-- can form on the TB in humid climates. The only drawback to water/methanol injection is supply.

[Coolwhip]

There are many cars running water injection only(over 3 atmospheres)! I wouldn't look at water injection as just a supplement to an intercooler. This is technology dating back to the 40's--it worked then and it still works great now. The humidified air not only cools the charge air but also greatly aids in combustion. The reason that coolant is run by the TB is that -->ICE<-- can form on the TB in humid climates. The only drawback to water/methanol injection is supply.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the assumption that the coolent (usually operating in the uper 180-200 degrees F) running through the throttle body to heat the throttle body in order to raise the temp of the intake air thus using less fuel. Thus lower air temp increases the amount of fuel that is gonna be supplied for the combustion. So in order to get better economy the manufacture opt'd for this setup.

[S14-NEO]

you are correct...to be honest i think it would take an act of god for ice to form in a throttle body that is WAY WAY WAY above freezing. even the intake charge after the intercooler isnt even close to that temp.. i can see our point being that the throttle body is a narrow passage for a very high volume of air but sorry man there is no freaking way ICE is going to form...thats a gooood one.

[mello88]

I thought the coolant through the TB was done to help reduce cold start emissions by warming the intake air sooner for a leaner burn. And secondarily to reduce the icing issue (when/where does this happen?)

I consider water injection similar to a nitrous setup, it is a tuning suplement that allows for temporary bursts of increased power with reduced detonation and cooler burn temps... Good for a 1/4 mile or a dyno run. But not so good for a long track event or continuous use on a daily driver

Also, if you ditch your IC in favor of a water-injected setup... What are you going to do when you're on the track/freeway/trip and your water tank runs dry? Knock city..
Modified by mello88 at 10:09 PM 12/16/2006

[rotorimp]

This is widely misunderstood and yes it is there partly for emmissions (atomization of fuel)-. I'm in Arizona and it is not humid or cold enough to really worry about. It is not an "ACT" of God it is thermal dynamics.

There's two reasons we want to heat the incoming air. The first is that the atomized fuel will mix with warm air better than cold air. This was actually more important with carburetted engines rather than fuel injected engines.

The second reason is to keep the throttle chamber from freezing. Yep, that's right. I said freezing. As in ice forming inside the throttle chamber.

Anyone who lives where it gets cold in the winter has heard of "wind chill". It'll be 30° with a wind chill of 10°. As the air moves through the throttle body, the same wind chill affects the inside if the throttle body. Under certain conditions, such as high humidity, condensation will form inside the throttle body and the moving air will freeze it. This ice will keep building up until it chokes off the air supply and the engine dies.

By running hot coolant through passages in the throttle body, it keeps the throttle body warm and prevents this ice from building up.

Some early fuel injected engines did not have heated throttle bodies and ice formation was such a problem that heated throttle bodies were retro fitted at the dealerships.

[WDRacing]

I've personally run everything from tap water to Xylene and all the combinations in between. Water injection works and works well. The issue with water injection is the need to monitor EGT's. By reducing the combustion temps you enable yourself to either add boost to a car with an intercooler, or run a low boost setup without one. However, how much water is to much? By reducing the egt's to much you lose spool and the exhaust gas exit velocity goes down the crapper.

Without a proper EGT monitoring system, running water injection as the soul source of charge air cooling isn't a very good idea. Can it be done, yes and it has been, but it's definitly not my first choice.

Aquamist kits are a rip off. There are plenty of single stage or variable kits on the market for far less and all work very well. Personally, I think you should consider methanol injection over water injection. The cooling effect is still very high but you're using a fuel source, not a non combustable. With a variable methanol injection kit and FMIC, assuming the turbo is operating half efficiently, you'll be able to increase boost another 10 psi easy. Thats about 100WHP in most cars...Thats 20psi on 370cc injectors in most cases.

In the end it comes down to budget and power goals. What works the best for you? IMO a FMIC is a must when using a turbo. There are complete kits from $115 to $170 on Ebay right now. Anyone who says they don't work needs to rethink their opinion. So money shouldn't be a concern here. For me to build a good DIY single stage water or methanol injection kit, I'll spend close to $125. So go with a FMIC, tune the car, then add water or alcohol after.

These are just my opinions based on my experiences. Definitly not the end all to water vs methanol vs IC.

WD

[StricNyne]

there is a guy on here who had a midget esque car with no intercooler and solely meth inj but i think he sold the car

[Sil240]

Funny how all the people who responded to the Water through the Tbody are from FL and AZ. LOL

I'm from NY now in FL.It is an ACT of God when it is FOCK'n Freezing!!! In the winter if its 20 deg that regular for a Feb day, but sometimes it goes below 0 deg.

There are times when you can't even open your door or window its soo cold.

Now living in FL the coldest it's been was a Freak 40 deg. I laughed as I turned on my AC. lol Just kidding hate the cold.

But yes, I could understand the cold start issue, but the only thing is that the coolant is cold when you 1st start the car. Yes, it would help as soon as it warms up.And also with the Tbody de-icer too.

rotorimp- it is possible to run your car without a IC. But at 17psi as a DD...... Not practical.. He's going to have to fill up very often.

I think water/meth/alk injection is great but I wouldn't reccomend it as a only means of cooling for anything other than a Dyno Queen or a Drag car (even then I wouldn't do it)

I can def co-sign what WD said.

[WDRacing]

Anything is possible, I've seen a K-car break into the 10's on a DIY 3 stage methanol injection setup...

For what it's worth, I'd use water inection as a safety net only. The more I think about it, the more I don't like using water. If my car was running 12.5-12.7 AFR's and as much timing as possible. I'd use some water just to lower the egt's enough to avoid knock...thats it.

WD

[Sil240]

Possible.But not practicle.

Don't get me wrong I like water injection.But not as the only form of cooling.Now that it's been brought up i've been thinking about it also.

What kind of kit would you reccomend, other than aquamist?

[WDRacing]

http://www.alcohol-injection.c....html

That site has lots of kits and parts for a DIY setup. To include a variable controller. With a twin nozzle setup and a variable controller you can use the methanol as a fuel source on high boost and make really decent power.

WD

[Spazz]

+1 for methanol/water injection, its been used in ww2 on supercharged p51 mustangs (and by the luftwafe 50/50 mix), in those days overboosting was the difference between life or death lol.