Water injection system?

[onosqv]

It seems they are used in rally cars

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/WaterInjection.html

Suppose to help w/ knocking, etc - of course it would seem more tuning would need to be involved.

Seems like it would help w/ the proper tuning. Here's 2 of them I found while browsing for other stuff:

N-R-JECT System:http://www.ktron.net/NERJECT.html

Top End Performance System:http://www.racetep.com/wik.html

Never really seen it widely discussed... so iono, what does everyone think?

[onosqv]

And a diy one for $4 hahaha:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/ ... ion_System

[MarkEmark]

It seems they are used in rally cars

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/WaterInjection.html

Suppose to help w/ knocking, etc - of course it would seem more tuning would need to be involved.

Seems like it would help w/ the proper tuning. Here's 2 of them I found while browsing for other stuff:

N-R-JECT System:http://www.ktron.net/NERJECT.html

Top End Performance System:http://www.racetep.com/wik.html

Never really seen it widely discussed... so iono, what does everyone think?

I think it's been discussed pretty widely on this forum, actually.

I think I was the first KA-T over here at Nico to be using water/alc injection (been using it for 2+ years), and one of the few who are still using it.

It amazes me that more people don't use it...it's (relatively) cheap insurance, in my opinion. It works wonders at reducing the chance of detonation, and as a major side benefit, it cleans your engine internals VERY well.

I pieced a kit together for a hell of a lot cheaper than the ones you have there...but I already had the water injection nozzle, the most important part of the system, if you ask me. The injection nozzle from the first link looks pretty cheap IMO.

I'm using a 1.0 gpm Northern Tools and equipment pump ($45), and a holley adjustable pressure switch ($30)...water lines and fittings are from home depot and were reasonably priced....and I'm also running another pressure switch that activates a light in the cabin below my boost gauge to let me know whenever the system's working. The pump has its source at the windshield-washer reservoir.

[fiznat]

Yeah, I use a water/alchy injection setup as well- and like Mark I cant believe more people dont use it around here. Kits are fairly cheap when you compare it to the rest of the crap we spend money on, and the benefits of a good 50/50 methanol/water mix are extremely potent. Water helps cool the combustion chamber like crazy (helps reduce knock a LOT), and the methanol raises your overall octane level (while in boost only) again fighting knock and allowing you to run more timing, which means more power. Methanol is cheap (I bought a 15 gallon drum for 100 bucks and after 1800 miles of use with the car I am not even close to 1/3 through the drum), and water is obviously free. The kits are sometimes expensive, sometimes not- depending if you want a full kit of if you want to DIY it. I went with the Snow Performance "Boost Cooler" stage 2 kit ( http://www.snowperformance.net/products.asp?id=1 ) which ran me about $500, but this is one of the top of the line kits which comes with lots of little extras all set up for you. Kits can be had for much less, as Mark mentioned.

I think ANYONE running over 10-15 pounds of boost should really look into these setups. I REALLY enjoy bieng able to go to the regular gas pumps and never having to worry about octane levels or knocking in my engine. I've been running 20psi on pump gas for some time now, and I have NEVER once heard knock or had any knock related problems with this setup.

Cliff Notes: Do it.

[onosqv]

Thanks for the reply guys. I must have been on something when I was trying to search for it .

Mark, any write ups/pics of where to connect & stuff .

Thanks again guys, another thingy for the turbo list, haha.

[WDRacing]

Been using alcohol injection for years. Anyone who isn't running alky or another type of sub-injection is extrememly handicapped compared to someone who is. Thats just simple fact...

WD

[Craving4Boost]

if i get water/alchy injection...do i still need to retard timing?

[greazymule]

how is the amount and timing of the injection controlled? also, shouldn't the car be tuned to take full advantage of the reduced cylinder temps and increase knock resistence. I would be looking at this for a drift setup, any ideas?

[WDRacing]

With water/alky you don't nned to retard timing as much if at all. Depends on the tuning and the amount of boost...whats injected...etc. I could do it, but I have experience and all the equipment to monitor for knock and AFR.

Each kit has a different setup for spraying alky. You have the basic on/off type with a pump volume knob. Works very well for starters and is easy to DIY. Then you have your progressive kits that enrich the spray with the increase in boost. This is the best way to go for high HP motors looking to run max timing and leaner AFR's.

WD

[nissanfanatic]

IMO, timing shoudl be what you focus on tuning no matter what. I say run your AF ratio of choice and then tune timing accordingly. Timing makes power.

[MarkEmark]

how is the amount and timing of the injection controlled? also, shouldn't the car be tuned to take full advantage of the reduced cylinder temps and increase knock resistence. I would be looking at this for a drift setup, any ideas?

Mine starts spraying methanol/water at 6.75 psi via a Holley adjustable pressure switch. You can adjust it to use whenever though, it's up to you.

And I definitely agree with cory...timing makes power. A 2 degree timing advance made a pretty amazing difference in feel and power with my KA-T at like 10 psi.

[WDRacing]

Timing is only a small part compared to fuel unless you can tune the entire timing curve. If your retarding base timing to compensate for boost, then your already WAY behind the power curve in the tuning world.

I use the BTM set to .5 per lb, with water I set it to 0 and have no knock at 15lbs of boost.

[Craving4Boost]

WD, so your not using the BTM anymore? are you using the more advanced water injections? or the easy cheap DYI/ghetto ones?

[WDRacing]

The only time I wouldn't use the BTM is when I'm actually using the alcohol/methonal/water. I'm actually using all three, experimenting with knock levels and timing advance. I always have the BTM installed I just turn down the timing retard when I'm using high boost mixed with some type of injection. I always have the BTM on during daily driving conditions where I only run 15lbs of boost.

If you were to fab a decent DIY kit with a 2 nozzles and two seperate hobbs switches set to come on at say 8 and 12 psi, then you'd have a pretty nice and fairly cheap way to run water/meth/alky and run ALOT more timing and boost.

The main thing to consider is this. If you don't have the ability to completely tune your timing map, mostly around max torque and varying load conditions based what gear the transmission is in. Then you should set the BTM or whatever timing controller to a set amount of retard, then try cranking up the boost. With waetr/meth/alky you can run substantially more boost without the detonation. AF's are alot more easier to tune then a timing map. SO I usually opt for running more boost and a slightly more conservative timing map.

Add alky - add boost - more alky - add more boost.

For tuning I highly suggest a wideband and a knock sensor of some kind. I use the MSD Knock Meter, so does Structure. Works very well and has saved me personally atleast 10 times.

Hope that helps a little.

WD

[onosqv]

For tuning I highly suggest a wideband and a knock sensor of some kind. I use the MSD Knock Meter, so does Structure. Works very well and has saved me personally atleast 10 times.

Does the MSD Knock Meter just install in any 8 x 1.25 screw hole like stock ones?

I have an SOHC & trying to figure out where & how to install one.

THANKS!

[Craving4Boost]

i should buy one too, the knock sensor on the SAFCII doesnt seem like it will work good enough

[cyrus240sx]

are there any benefits to using a water injection setup on a N/A motor? my friends keep argueing with me saying that they can... but i keep saying it only really works with forced induction....

[onosqv]

are there any benefits to using a water injection setup on a N/A motor? my friends keep argueing with me saying that they can... but i keep saying it only really works with forced induction....

Didn't you see my second post? It's mother Earth friendly .

And a diy one for $4 hahaha:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/ ... ion_System

[WDRacing]

The MSD Knock Meter comes with a knock sensor and adapter to fit almost any size hole in the block.

[Craving4Boost]

you bolt it onto the block? will it get hot?

[WDRacing]

There is already a knock sensor in the block, you simply add the one that comes with the kit into one of the threaded holes on the side of the block under the intake mani. Heat is not a problem.

WD