War Tax? Draft Reinstatement?

[IBCoupe]

So, for the first time, we've got two wars, neither of which are funded by a special tax.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... 3&ft=1&f=5

My point here is not to get into a debate with anyone as to whether we should be in these wars in the first place. I am simply saying that if and when the United States goes to war, it has to do so with the backing of and the support of - and support is not just a verbal thing. It's not a rhetorical device. Support means giving something up, giving, you know, getting a little skin on the game.

[Bubba1]

So, for the first time, we've got two wars, neither of which are funded by a special tax.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... 3&ft=1&f=5

My point here is not to get into a debate with anyone as to whether we should be in these wars in the first place. I am simply saying that if and when the United States goes to war, it has to do so with the backing of and the support of - and support is not just a verbal thing. It's not a rhetorical device. Support means giving something up, giving, you know, getting a little skin on the game.

Not only not funded by a special tax, but accompanied by a TAX cut. That made no sense at all and unsurprisingly became one of the reasons the deficit jumped.

[Cold_Zero]

War bonds anyone?
This is an old issue, I remember this coming up after the 2003 Iraq Invasion.

[IBCoupe]

I know it's an old issue; I just heard a new Op-Ed this morning from yesterday's NPR's Talk of the Nation pod-cast.

Think it's complicated further by the recession? Is it too late to impose these measures? Certainly not a draft (and that would drive down unemployment, I bet), but a tax might be a more complicated issue.

[stebo0728]

I know it's an old issue; I just heard a new Op-Ed this morning from yesterday's NPR's Talk of the Nation pod-cast.

Think it's complicated further by the recession? Is it too late to impose these measures? Certainly not a draft (and that would drive down unemployment, I bet), but a tax might be a more complicated issue.

You think a volunteer army is not superior to a forced army? I surely wouldnt want to fight beside some pissy pants mommas boy who had no business holding a gun.

[HashiriyaS14]

How is the draft possibly a solution to any problem we currently have?

[IBCoupe]

You think a volunteer army is not superior to a forced army? I surely wouldnt want to fight beside some pissy pants mommas boy who had no business holding a gun.

How is the draft possibly a solution to any problem we currently have?

The draft is a more going forward issue; the idea being that we won't be getting into as many wars like the one we have (ungodly unpopular) with it.

The point of not having an all-volunteer army is the same as not simply relying on mercenaries. You think a privatized army is not superior to a public army? Superiority is not the point: nobody cares when an all-volunteer army is massacre'd. They chose to be there.

That said, the draft would drive down unemployment.

[Bubba1]

You think a volunteer army is not superior to a forced army? I surely wouldnt want to fight beside some pissy pants mommas boy who had no business holding a gun.

How is the draft possibly a solution to any problem we currently have?

The draft is a more going forward issue; the idea being that we won't be getting into as many wars like the one we have (ungodly unpopular) with it.

The point of not having an all-volunteer army is the same as not simply relying on mercenaries. You think a privatized army is not superior to a public army? Superiority is not the point: nobody cares when an all-volunteer army is massacre'd. They chose to be there.

That said, the draft would drive down unemployment.

There's another issue here. You might drive down unemployment ...slightly... with a draft, but you might want to think about where the money is going to come from to pay for it.

[IBCoupe]

There's another issue here. You might drive down unemployment ...slightly... with a draft, but you might want to think about where the money is going to come from to pay for it.

As opposed to what?

I'm reminded of the arguments about what ended the Great Depression. Some say it was the New Deal, some say it was WWII (and others still say it was neither, and that the Depression didn't actually end until years later), but I see both as giant Keynesian maneuvers.

[Cold_Zero]

That said, the draft would drive down unemployment.

Wait a minute. A draft is typically instituted during times of "Total War" when the conventional Military (Active, Reserve, National Guard and IRR) can not fulfill its mission. Currently, I dont think we have reached this point yet, nor will we. We still have divisions based in the US and Europe that are not deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan or the Global War on Terror.

14.5 million people are unemployed and there are currently 2.9 million people in the United States Military, how big of a military does this country need in order to 'drive down unemployment?' To be honest, I think that is a ridiculous idea. Why don't we just hire the currently 14.5 million people unemployed put them on the government payroll and give the current administration a feather to put in their cap come November? Oh wait, because that is an insane idea. What will happen when the Federal Government starts to shed all these jobs? Not only these new military jobs but all the other jobs that they have been expanding in the past few years?

[stebo0728]

That said, the draft would drive down unemployment.

Wait a minute. A draft is typically instituted during times of "Total War" when the conventional Military (Active, Reserve, National Guard and IRR) can not fulfill its mission. Currently, I dont think we have reached this point yet, nor will we. We still have divisions based in the US and Europe that are not deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan or the Global War on Terror.

14.5 million people are unemployed and there are currently 2.9 million people in the United States Military, how big of a military does this country need in order to 'drive down unemployment?' To be honest, I think that is a ridiculous idea. Why don't we just hire the currently 14.5 million people unemployed put them on the government payroll and give the current administration a feather to put in their cap come November? Oh wait, because that is an insane idea. What will happen when the Federal Government starts to shed all these jobs? Not only these new military jobs but all the other jobs that they have been expanding in the past few years?

I think the argument being made is an emotional one. Its not that the current military is "below par". Its more that the average jane's son is not necessarily involved on the front lines, and so the general level of concern over the military's well being is nil. I understand the argument being made, but do not agree. I do not have a child on the front lines, but I care as much as I possible can with having one there, and I would wager most americans feel the same. You may see large swells in localized urban areas where people hold a general unconcern or downright disdain for the military, but I dont believe the sentiment is shared among what you would call "most americans".

With that said, you make claims toward unemployement levels. While a draft may involve more people being enlisted, as its been pointed out, we still have many battalions not currently in action, so what will these newly enlisted troops do? They would have to be on lay, and would still have to find private sector work until such a time that they are called into action, correct? Maybe I misunderstand the situation, but that seems logical to me.

[Cold_Zero]

Let me sum up my previous post with a statement since I think you misundestood what I was saying. The United States Military is a tool, not a social program. We have already turned them into aid workers (see Haiti and Burma), social experiments (dont ask dont tell) and now we want to make it a social program to drive down unemployment. At this pace just get ride of the damn thing.

I should have probably used the word brigade as the United States Army is going to that model with the Modular Army. I used divisions because I am wired that way (having grown up during the Cold War.) So brigade, smaller than a division but much bigger than a battalion.

[stebo0728]

I should have probably used the word brigade as the United States Army is going to that model with the Modular Army. I used divisions because I am wired that way (having grown up during the Cold War.) So brigade, smaller than a division but much bigger than a battalion.

LOL - when I say words like brigade, division, battalion, I have no clue what the mean as far as size. They just sound like nice army sounding words.

[IBCoupe]

I don't think there are many people who actually disdain the troops, and that's not what I was getting at. I want that to be clear. I'm pretty sure there's a good portion of Americans who are distrustful/disdainful of the military (and it's accompanying -industrial complex), but that's not what I'm getting at, either.

It's possible, and I believe it's common, for us to have a great amount of respect for the troops and for the military, while still not losing any sleep over the soldiers. This allows us to go off and take care of other issues we're faced with, and to focus on matters that aren't central to the military, often at costs of issues that are central to the military. For example: didn't we have trouble finding the funding for humvee armor a few years back? Had we imposed a special tax, as is normally done, that wouldn't have been a problem, for the funding would have already been there. Had we imposed a draft, there wouldn't have been any tomfoolery with a bill like that, because not only would it have been morally wrong (which it was) but it would have been complete and utter political suicide.

If your district is composed of parents of children who are fighting the war you declared (though that hasn't happened in how many decades?), are you going to stand in the way of getting them body armor? Of course not; you're going to offer to pay for it twice, the second time from your own coffers. It's the same thing with every other issue. If your district was plagued by unemployment and it affected mostly people who might be tempted to vote for you, do you think you'd even consider for a second voting down the extension of benefits? Of course not; you'd vote for it and go stage a photo-op in a soup kitchen.

When we don't have "skin in the game," as Koppel put it, we don't really have a reason to examine the wars we start. When we don't contribute via blood or taxes, we de-prioritize the mission, and we stop banging down the doors of our elected officials.

[Cold_Zero]

I believe the issue with a lack of up-armored Humvees was caused not by a lack of funding but the sudden rise of IEDs in Iraq and the rapid deployment of troops from the US and Europe. Those Humvees being plucked out of units that did not initially require up-armored vehicles.

Interest example on body armor. I believe it was B. Boxer who wanted to pass legislation at a federal level after the BOA shootout to prevent private citizens from buying/owning body armor. Fast forward to 2003 and thank God that the legislation never passed as families were able to buy body armor for their family members in Iraq when there was a shortage.

[AZhitman]

When we don't have "skin in the game," as Koppel put it, we don't really have a reason to examine the wars we start. When we don't contribute via blood or taxes, we de-prioritize the mission, and we stop banging down the doors of our elected officials.

Going to have to agree here. I have flesh and blood in the game, and while I'm well aware of the risks involved, I'd just as soon see him (and ALL his brothers and sisters) serve his country from the relative safety of a stateside assignment.

[IBCoupe]

Just to run a bit with your agreement, Greg, wouldn't you, upon reflection, have desired that the war be well-justified before it was started?

[wingFeather]

I agree. Obama should start up the draft

the war be well-justified before it was started?

It wasn't well justified?

[IBCoupe]

Not relevant.

[wingFeather]

Not relevant.

Your own question isn't relevant?

[IBCoupe]

That wasn't the question I asked.