VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Discuss topics related to the VQ series engine.
turbocad6
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:42 pm
Car: 03 fx35

Re: (Cyclemut)

Postby turbocad6 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:45 pm

well dude, the way you say it is, is the way I thought it might be in the begining when I bought the motor, but then I read more & more & start thinking of all the things that could go wrong or might not work .your words are again encoraging.

so your saying that I can definately have the 03 vin entered into the 07 ecu? this is good news because that was my biggest primary concern for inspection, as long as I can have my vin in the ECU & get everything to the point of no DTC's for inspection I'm in business as a street car...


User avatar
SteveTheTech
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:20 pm
Car: 15 Sentra SR
12 G37x Coupe
-Formerly-
05 Mazda 6 L3 Sport, 95 J30, 94 D22
Location: Chantilly, Va
Contact:

Re: (turbocad6)

Postby SteveTheTech » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:23 pm

Sorry y'all I'm a bit short on time today but I had to chime in here real quick. This weekend I will get into the why.

Although the nuts and bolts of the LAN are imple I have to respectfully disagree. If you run a VCAN check when calling up a vehicle with CIII you can see that the voltage is monitored in the microvolt range. The system structure itself is not adaptable. Think about setting the configuration on the BCM of an 04 Armada, the threshold of operation is so minimal, the likelihood of replicating and integrating that well enough to pass the evaporative emissions self tests (which are different as well).

Cyclemut- I was laughing at the plug and play comment, I thought you said that comically I didn't know you were being serious. My wife always tells me I laugh at inappropriate times I guess that would be one of them. huh, guess I'm buyin the first round then...well that is unless we have to duel at high noon.

turbocad6-Mp3car is a good site I learned allot there while researching the installation of the Alpine version of the Cleansweep in an M. Which I must say was not as fun as I imagined it would be. This type of wild electrical cluster F is my personal hobby, since I had nothing to of worth to contribute to your site I hope we can help you out here. I have used the thread about making your own rcas on more than one occasion.

I am very skeptical about the ability to randomly change the learned vin number in the ecm to something that is not even close to what it is programmed to accept. This would require a complete retrofit of the OE EC harness. I do tend to over think things and am indeed a skeptic but I was taught to question everything.

User avatar
Cyclemut
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:36 am
Car: 2002 Xterra 4x4, 2005 Frontier 4x4
Contact:

Postby Cyclemut » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:37 pm

I'm not the dueling type. I'll drink a beer with you!

I don't think the dealership will be able to put the '03 VIN into your '07 ECU. But if you're going to be talking to UpRev, mention it to them and see what they say. I think we're going to be asking the same question to them, but I don't know a time frame for that.

Even if you put a used ECU into a vehicle, the dealer will still reprogram the vehicle as per the VIN of the vehicle, which in your case, will have the wrong engine and you DON'T want that engine program for your HR.

We just had a mild milestone Tuesday. We swapped an older engine back into the donor vehicle that the HR came out of. So, the '06 engine went into the '07 vehicle. The '07 still had the NATS enabled, so I thought that I was going to have to have it reprogrammed. Much to my delight though, we got the engine started, the engine from a different NATS vehicle! The keys weren't reprogrammed or anything. So, the NATS is stored in the BCM, the ECU must only see that the BCM says that the key is OK, then let the engine start. I was completely surprised, to say the least.

So I think that you could do the swap and probably even get it started without having NATS reprogrammed. The keys for your vehicle will start the new ECU equipped vehicle.

Also, although I did mix up a B/W wire with a different one and cause around 8 codes, I did not get a CAN failure like I did when swapping the HR into our vehicle. Even the Nissan guys had a CAN code when they did their swap. But when the swap is reversed (putting the non-HR into a new vehicle), no CAN code. Interesting! Must be a CAN language issue, newer body doesn't mind seeing a dumber engine, but an older body hates seeing a smarter engine.

I'm convinced you're going to be OK. If you want, pm me with your information and I'll give you mine. We can talk and discuss some of the issue that I had. My diagrams wouldn't make much sense to you, I write like a Dr. with my own quarks and marks. But since I've got one swap under my belt, working on the second and have 4 Ariel Atoms (custom versions, two 1.8T VW versions, an Acura version and a Civic Si version) that I have to originate harnesses for, I'm getting some wiring under my belt.

turbocad6
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:42 pm
Car: 03 fx35

Re:

Postby turbocad6 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:45 am

ok, I've talked to a few other Nissan techs & the general consensus is that it is believed that I should be able to enter the Vin correctly. there are 3 areas of memory in the ecu & the area with the Vin stored is not an area that uprev normally plays in so I'm not sure how much they can help with this although I have not confirmed with them yet.

that talk of a can communication error that is not solvable def has me Leary & concerned...

I have also spoken to another friend that works at a Nissan dealership in Canada & he tells me that one of the techs there has put an hr motor into his z, & he could not get the BCM to communicate with the ECU, so what he winded up doing is wiring the HR harness into the DE ECU & he then used a haltech to control the cams... I asked him well ok I assumed this could be done but what did he do about the dual TB's. his answer was that the tech found that the TB"s were nothing special, & even on the HR ECU setup they do it with the secondary TB slaved off of the first... I remember reading in the FSM that the first TB gets control & feedback where the second one just taps into the control, well he claims to have just hooked it up that way to the DE ECU & has the dual TB's working just fine...

all things considered & also considering the fact that I will be turbocharging, the more I weigh the options of either running it on the DE box with something like the haltech VS running it on the HR box with uprev tuner I think I'm now leaning toward the DE with haltech route... at least with that I know for sure I will have no CAN troubles at all & everything in the fx should still work as it did, VIN intact & all, vs the unknowns of the HR box. the haltech seems to be the much more expensive option initially but when I consider further that by using the HR with uprev I will also need to spend $$ on towing to a dealer, $$ on the tech reprogramming & stuff, also $$ on a electronic boost controller that the haltech already has built in, & all the other benefits of the haltech over the HR uprev because of the add'l inputs & outputs I think it's just starting to make more & more sense. stuff like a 2 stage & even meth injection is trivial with the haltech as it too can control this easily, where with the HR box each thing I want to add is going to take more $$$...

turbocad6
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:42 pm
Car: 03 fx35

Re: (Cyclemut)

Postby turbocad6 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:10 am

adding to this & in response to your latest findings, I find it strange that the older engine started without learning the key... if what your assuming is correct, that the key is only coded to the BCM then I see a huge security flaw there. if that were true then that means that just swapping out the BCM & you can just drive away in any Ikey vehicle easy as that, somehow I find it hard to believe that is by design & that is the whole NATS system, it wouldn't take more than a few minutes to access the plugs to the BCM & unplug them & plug them into a replacement BCM & drive away.

somehow I don't see these cars being that easy to steal, but then again I am not doubting what you are saying here at all either. I'm wondering if it's possible that just by chance the key code was the same??? I know sounds far fetched, but I'm sure as long time techs we've all seen the odd occasion that the wrong key actually worked in a different car or the wrong remote actually activated a different car, most times this is discovered by accident, I'm wondering if this could be the case here? other than that I'm at a loss for an explanation of why the vehicle started... I was sure that the bcm & ecm both have to have the same key code up until now...

another question, by your last post & the fact that you were able to install an earlier engine back into the donor car, does that mean that the donor was a fully intact vehicle when you started???hmmm, & here I am not even willing to spend what a complete wrecked car would have cost to do this swap, which is why I just bought a drivetrain & not a whole vehicle... wow

oh & Steve, I too am like you that I need to question everything & over think them to death, I'm not comfortable until I know everything I can & fully understand everything I can about the project at hand, but then again this trait is probably the thing that would separate someone like this from the type that just dives in head first without realizing all the possible pitfalls & then half way through just stands there with a huge mess & no solutions, kinda like the guy that was described in the first post of this thread "hey, that sounds like a good idea, let's do it" & then the inevitable egging on of "yeah, that sounds cool, do it!!!!!" this thread is here to avoid that I think I like to over think things to death, that's the way to get er done no matter what & be prepared for whatever pitfall you may encounter

also going back to my previous post, another thing that makes the haltech a plus over the HR ecu for FI is being able to run it speed density, meaning no mass air sensors needed. i like that

as far a sharing my findings & eventual wiring solutions & everything I'm more than happy to share whatever I can here, our pooling of knowledge is going toward setting the ground work in place to make these swaps eventually become more commonplace & doable even for the less tech savvy out there. something is much easier to do when #1 you've seen it actually done before & also when instructions & info is shared by those that have done it, I'm more than happy to share whatever I can. if anyone is interested in seeing my fx heres a link to thread at mp3car, long thread but skimming it can give you an idesa of what I'm working with, also if you need any info on carpc's or car audio I'd be glad to help there too. don't know if external links work but here goes: http://www.mp3car.com/vbulleti....html

User avatar
Cyclemut
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:36 am
Car: 2002 Xterra 4x4, 2005 Frontier 4x4
Contact:

Postby Cyclemut » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:32 pm

I understand the both of you trying to think and rethink everything that there is to do and then going after it. But when it comes down to it, all the wires have to go somewhere. I just get in there and if there's something that comes up, I deal with it and move on. It's easier for me to do that than to let it sit there while I toil over every little detail and then try to react or even find out why something didn't work when it all looked good on paper.

Different strokes for different strokes.

As for the NATS, the ECU isn't hooked to the key reader in any way. It is hooked to the BCM through the CAN system, that's all. So yes, the BCM houses the code, not the ECU, and the BCM tells the ECU that it's OK to start. So it starts.

I started doing a bit of asking around to some guys that have raced several NATS equipped vehicles. When removing the NATS out of the ECU, it allowed them to get rid of the BCM and all the key identification issues. Some got rid of the keys altogether and only have a push-button starter setup.

Your comment on these things being that easy to steal is curious. I repo'd cars for a couple of years as a 2nd job. You'd be surprised how easy most cars are to steal. But to get to the BCM, you'd have to bypass the entire security system to begin with. So yes, replace the BCM with one that has a key that it recognized and is cut with the car's key code and you're all set. But this isn't 'Gone in 60 Seconds', most thieves are lazy and stupid. If they're going to go through that much trouble to get your car, they'll get it.

Or just pull up with a flat bed trailer and tow it away. I could steal most cars with a cordless drill, if they had a security system. I just drill through the battery tray and let the battery water drain out. We'd go back after an hour or so (trying to find more cars, endless supply of people not making payments) and tow it away. Same trick that was used on the older 'Vettes with an ice pick through the battery and the replaceable plastic panel behind the left front tire.

If they want it, they'll take it.

Have you started putting the engine in yet? That's the fun part!

User avatar
SteveTheTech
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:20 pm
Car: 15 Sentra SR
12 G37x Coupe
-Formerly-
05 Mazda 6 L3 Sport, 95 J30, 94 D22
Location: Chantilly, Va
Contact:

Re: Re: (turbocad6)

Postby SteveTheTech » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:35 pm

I've done allot of thinking about this in the time since I have posted here. The work you have done to that FX is impressive. I wish I had the disposable income and free time to do that type of carputer setup. The FX yields itself well to that, personally the dash conversion you did is pretty impressive, that's a hell of a length to go to for a project my hat is off to you.

I still the security is going to be your biggest hurdle. I have a feeling you will need to incorporate a CanBus bypass device like the ones used for remote start devices. If you are crafty you can replicate enough of a setup to fool potential thieves unless they know your system. I think bypassing the two separate security systems all together (at least in theory) and running their control through a remote starting setup. The verification signal could be replicated fairly simply.....however I cannot say with certainty that the bcm would not have a problem with this theoretical setup.

This past week I replaced an ecm in an otherwise well working car (except for a few issues). The wake up procedure triggered codes in every possible system. I have been researching remote starters for an unrelated debate and have realized there are already can simulators on the market...so logically the system can be fooled but your needs are unique but possible.

For the tech savvy hacking the system for a legitimate purpose is done in small doses in the current market. I will continue to look for relative information, I just wanted to say this has stuck in my mind.

What trans are you planning on using?

turbocad6
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:42 pm
Car: 03 fx35

Re: Re: (SteveTheTech)

Postby turbocad6 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:47 am

thanks bro, that dash was a lot of work but well worth it to me, I really enjoy it. I will be using the tranny from the same donor g35x that the engine came from.

I haven't pulled the engine out of the fx yet, I want to be as ready as I can for the new engine to start going in before I pull it off the road & in pieces, the hold up right now is not enough disposable income atm for a pair of good turbo's & the haltech

I did start fabrication on the turbo headers though. the fx differs from the g's & z's in that there is a whole lot more room under the hood, so much so that I've decided that I am going to mount the turbo's right up front & forward of the engine. i am able to build new turbo headers from the stock HR headers, I just cut the pipes off the flange, flipped them around & then weld them back facing forward & up instead of rearward & down. I don't want to start to put the new engine in until I have the turbos & can build the rest of the headers & the downpipes as the engine goes in. trying to do this after the whole engine is already in would be much tougher.

I've put myself on a pretty tight budget for this swap so buying a whole off the shelf turbo setup is way to $$$ wasting, plus my setup will be more efficent with less presure drop through all the plumbing because of the better turbo placement & the non log design manifolds really. these are restrictions for the z & g, but I don't have those same restrictions with an fx

not sure if images work but I'll try to show you what I mean








dmuramoto
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:20 pm
Car: 350Z street, 350Z GT3 and T3 racecars, Versa HB and Infiniti G37xS sedan

Re: Re: (turbocad6)

Postby dmuramoto » Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:00 pm

It's been about a month since turbocad6 posted and I'm wondering if there are any updates? I still say a VQ swap is a PITA and takes intelligence, skill and patience to figure out.

turbocad6
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:42 pm
Car: 03 fx35

Re: Re: (dmuramoto)

Postby turbocad6 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:26 am

there is no question that a VQ swap is a PITA and takes intelligence, skill and patience to figure out, but I think many motor swaps can also be the same really, & some can be a lot worse too. at least the fact that it is Nissan into Nissan does make so many things similar & makes many issues of a typical motor swap that would normally be a challenge become a non issue here too, so I guess it's all relative. stuff like motor & tranny mounting, drive shafts, exhaust, accessories & others that would all normally be a big challenge in many swaps are no problem here, so all in all I wouldn't say it is so much harder than any other motor swap really. it is a swap, not a replacement though, guess many think it's more along the lines of a replacement & of course there there going to be in for a rude awakening I suppose but as far as motor swaps go I wouldn't say this is particularly difficult... probably be much more challenging to swap in an lsx or something if your looking to keep it a registrable street car really, so again, it's all relative...

I've been delayed because of $$ for turbo's, haltech, blow off valves waste gates, intercoolers, injectors etc... need a nice chunk of change to do what I'm looking to do, BUT I did just put the fx in the shop & peeled the nose off of it & starting now to disassemble, so it is finally underway at least... I'll report back as I get further & wind up getting it running. I think using a haltech is going to make it much more straight forward. I still may try to run the HR off of the HR ecu intially at least, with the fall back of running it on the DE box if that don't work out... really trying to run the HR off of the DE ecu should be easy enough, only the DE ecu can't control both intake & exhaust valve timing where the haltech then comes into play. I'll keep you posted

dmuramoto
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:20 pm
Car: 350Z street, 350Z GT3 and T3 racecars, Versa HB and Infiniti G37xS sedan

Re: Re: (turbocad6)

Postby dmuramoto » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:20 pm

[QUOTE=turbocad6]there is no question that a VQ swap is a PITA and takes intelligence, skill and patience to figure out, but I think many motor swaps can also be the same really, & some can be a lot worse too. at least the fact that it is Nissan into Nissan does make so many things similar & makes many issues of a typical motor swap that would normally be a challenge become a non issue here too, so I guess it's all relative. stuff like motor & tranny mounting, drive shafts, exhaust, accessories & others that would all normally be a big challenge in many swaps are no problem here, so all in all I wouldn't say it is so much harder than any other motor swap really. it is a swap, not a replacement though, guess many think it's more along the lines of a replacement & of course there there going to be in for a rude awakening I suppose but as far as motor swaps go I wouldn't say this is particularly difficult... probably be much more challenging to swap in an lsx or something if your looking to keep it a registrable street car really, so again, it's all relative...[QUOTE]

While I have done many motor swaps over the years, the T2 Z project has been the most challenging I can recall. Without Allen's expertise I wouldn't have even tried it!

While you make some good points about Nissan engines going into Nissan platforms, even that advise has its limits. Once Nissan does a major update of a particular model, all bets are off. Without having the full front clip from an '07 HR equipped Z, we wouldn't have all the components necessary to swap the engine over to the Rev Up-equipped race car. From steering racks to radiator supports, there was very little that was the same for both 350Zs. The point is that many HRs continue to show up for sale, and somebody young and dumb is bound to start the swap without reading threads like this to get educated. It's inevitable they'll get stuck and at the very least be out of a car for a long time (when it was just a simple engine swap).


turbocad6
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:42 pm
Car: 03 fx35

Re: Re: (dmuramoto)

Postby turbocad6 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:51 am

OK, yeah, I was not aware of any rack & pinion difference with the z. that's def good info. as far as the radiator support I guess there are differences with the second air box, but I would guess that a radiator support swap may be avoided with a little cutting, especially since I guess most who do a swap like this will be using some sort of CAI anyway?

I have finally dove into my swap head first. pulled my old drivetrain & getting the new ready for re installation.



I've also now really dug into the wiring for this swap & one of the first things I realized is that the engine harness itself does not contain all 3 of the HR ecu plugs, same for he DE harness, only contains one of the 2 plugs for the ecu.

engine side:

dash side:

& here you can see at the junction of engine to dash & the difference in the amount of wires in each harness. 101 wires in the HR & only 68 in the DE:

each setup has one ECU plug that comes from the dash harness, not the engine harness. since I only got an engine harness I did not have this third plug.

the harnesses opened up:

the 2 wiring harness diagrams, top is DE bottom is HR:

and the harness plugs that are & are not part of the engine harness, circled ones are included, non circled are not:

I really reconsidered my plan of attack & started to think that I would like to attempt to run it on the HR ecu if I can, so I winded up finding a salvage yard that had the car I'm looking for. I winded up buying not only another ECU from them, but of course the missing plug, I also bought from the same car the BCM with all connectors, & the Ikey module that the key docks into in the dash & the actual key that is already programmed to the BCM from that car. idea there was to again try to do the complete ECU & BCM swap, also converting over to the later style push button start.

this is what I bought from another wrecked G35X:

OK, so now digging way deeper into the wiring diagrams & printing & tracing multiple pages from the FSM's & tracing & charting this swap, I have now come to realize that there even still a few other items I'd need to pull this off. namely I will also need the IPDM & the actual ign steering lock module & a few other misc things like the new Ikey receiver module & stuff. I'm still not 100% sure if I'd also need to switch out the unified meter & a/c amp (M&A)... then, even past that I could wind up with issues still with some of the remaining modules on the can buss too. wouldn't know until after how well the 03 instrument panel will work with the transplanted 07 stuff... a lot of stuff that can't really be 100% determined until after everything is wired in.....

I'm going to contact the guy with the salvaged G35X & see how much more of what I need is still available, but this is starting to look more & more like a suicide mission. I think I may revert back to my original plan of running the HR on the DE ecu with the haltech... that looks to be a piece of cake in comparison to this. I haven't completely given up on trying to run it on the HR ecu yet, but I gotta admit that I'm getting close to giving up on that idea... at least initially. I may wind up needing to rewire the whole car to do the ECU BCM & IPDM & all the new Ikey push button start stuff from the HR car.... I'd hate nothing more than to completely rewire all these systems only to find out that there are still more & more incompatibility issues that surface... you can only know so much before actually doing it.

I think instead of cutting the HR plugs off the harnesses to wire in the DE plug, I'm going to piggyback the DE plug into the harness, this way even if I do intially get it running on the DE ecu & the haltech, I can always later on, if feeling suicidal again, try to swap out to the more complete HR systems... yes this is a whole lot of fun, & yes, I can now see 100% why this is def labeled as a "don't try this at home folks" type swap...

& oh yeah, since I'm putting all this here anyway here is the turbo's I'm going to be also running on the HR motor...



sorry guys, I know this is not my thread & don't mean to spam you guys with all of my project, but just figured it fit into what was being discussed here & some helpful info can come from it

turbocad6
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:42 pm
Car: 03 fx35

Postby turbocad6 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:55 am

also, I think I failed to mention the option of running the new HR ecu with my original BCM. haven't ruled that out as a possibilty yet either... have I mentioned how much fun this is?

dmuramoto
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:20 pm
Car: 350Z street, 350Z GT3 and T3 racecars, Versa HB and Infiniti G37xS sedan

Re: (turbocad6)

Postby dmuramoto » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:08 pm

No apologizes required. We're glad to have another member of the VQ swaps PITA club.

You're traveling down the same dusty road we took last season. Unfortunately, it doesn't get any better. Only more complicated and somewhat mind-numbing...

User avatar
breadbox
Posts: 8555
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:09 pm
Car: Red 89 240sx,Black 89 Koop, White 84 720 4x4KC
Location: Va Bch

Re: (dmuramoto)

Postby breadbox » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:33 am

Its soooo frustrating, these motors sound and are so amazing. I have almost purchase two transmissions and a motor, but researched how much wiring is needed and makes me want to kill the idea all together. I am patiently waiting until these are as common swaps as SR20s.


turbocad6
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:42 pm
Car: 03 fx35

Re: (breadbox)

Postby turbocad6 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:13 am

I've been so tied up with the mechanical end of things haven't gotten around to fully figuring out all the wiring yet... the biggest problem I see is figuring out which wire is which in the few wire to wire plugs, like connectors f48, f49 & connector f103... eveything else is pretty well documented, you can find all the pinouts for components such as the ecu easily enough, but nothing is really documented on any of the wire to wire connections & there are a lot of wires there

still building the turbo setup... I went through 3 revisions & now I'm at the point of building my own headers from scratch to get the turbo's exactly where I want them with the shortest headers possible while still keeping equal length runners...















this is so much friggin work on top of the work of just the swap issues which is causing it to take a while... I can't even say when I'll get it running but I can't even spend the time on wiring till the turbo setup is all fabricated & the engine is permanently back in the car, then comes the wiring

dmuramoto
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:20 pm
Car: 350Z street, 350Z GT3 and T3 racecars, Versa HB and Infiniti G37xS sedan

Re: VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Postby dmuramoto » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:50 am

It's been awhile since this thread has been updated, but Turbocad has continued to be busy:

http://www.infinitiscene.com/forum/show ... 86&page=36

This lengthy thread continues to illustrate the complexity in dealing with the main harness in rewiring a current Nissan engine swap. The quest continues, but the road is long and muddy. Best of luck!

User avatar
SteveTheTech
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:20 pm
Car: 15 Sentra SR
12 G37x Coupe
-Formerly-
05 Mazda 6 L3 Sport, 95 J30, 94 D22
Location: Chantilly, Va
Contact:

Re: VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Postby SteveTheTech » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:35 am

I was recently wondering how this build was going.

Hopefully seeing pictures of this type of procedure will detur those who lack the space time and skill to get this done correctly.

I'd like to see someone stuff a new DI 5.6 or 5.0 in an fx, but those all have the 7 speed, which is just going to add more problems.

turbocad6
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:42 pm
Car: 03 fx35

Re: VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Postby turbocad6 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:58 pm

guys, just a quick update... I know this has gone on forever now, but my hold up has been in #1, learning how to tig weld SS headers & aluminum & all else needed to complete my build & also #2 in building a nice fab shop in my home garage... good thing I have patience :naughty: hopefully I'll have some results here pretty soon...

I have a somewhat related question, well, ok maybe it's not so related but in a sense it could be as it's part of my swap, I'd really like to ask this here because you guys are seasoned nissan techs & might know the answer to this so here goes...

in doing my swap & adding my twin turbo setup I'm kinda concerned about my major limiting factor, which is of course the AWD automatic tranny... I have since winded up acquiring a g37x engine & am planning the possibility of building this block up to eventually use with my 35hr heads, but I also picked up this block for another reason, & that is to use it to mock up a custom bell housing to mate a GTR stick tranny to the HR motor...

now ideally I would love to get my hands on a r34 trans, just because it is the latest model I can get, r35 of course will not work without having the whole drivetrain & major work as the transaxle is rear mounted, so r34 is the best within reason...

problem I'm having is finding an r34 transmission, there scarce but I'm finding a lot of r33 & r32 trannies ... does anyone know the differences between the r32, r33 & r34 transmissions besides the r34 being 6 speed as opposed to the others being 5? are the 5 speeds of the r32/33 still overdrive units? (I'm assuming they are) also, I guess my main concern is in the altezza awd, anyone know much about these trannies & if they differe from the later atteza setups like what would otherwise be in the fx??... sorry in advance if this is a little OT but I'm hoping one of you techs may have some info that could help me with this... I have an r32 tranny that I can pick up at a reasonable price to start chopping up but hate to decide on the r32 if theres something else I'm missing here.... of course I'll update here when I have any real progress on the overall HR swap & thanks for any tips or info you may be able to provide

User avatar
SteveTheTech
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:20 pm
Car: 15 Sentra SR
12 G37x Coupe
-Formerly-
05 Mazda 6 L3 Sport, 95 J30, 94 D22
Location: Chantilly, Va
Contact:

Re: VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Postby SteveTheTech » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:03 pm

Hey man, I've been keeping a partial eye on the very long thread over at that other place.

Impressive work and dedication thus far.

What are you looking at as far as HP and Torque at the crank?
The photos look impressive...I would think easily 500+...At that no matter what you are going to get it would have to be built. Having a JATCO built doesn't sound impossible, but I wouldn't know which one would be best for this application. No matter what a factory transmission will not survive break in, I bet.

Interesting side note- I recently learned that the transfer case used in just about every G and M is basically the same as the one used in the early M56. So they are able to handle at least 420hp.

I have no idea how you will be able to get the awd system to work on its own. I would suggest the easiest way would be to crack the code and have it re-written. I think that might sound like an insurmountable task, but I am sure some of the IS guys could pull this off.

I am going to bet you will need one standard set of components (IE everything from the donor car, or the G37x) all of the control units will need to properly communicate. To the best of my knowledge there is no way to interpret or direct the digital network communications...doesn't mean it is impossible.

turbocad6
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:42 pm
Car: 03 fx35

Re: VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Postby turbocad6 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:15 am

hey steve, the transfer case itself is the same as the r32 r33 & r34 skylines too & these have been known to handle north of 1,000hp, so I don't really think the transfer case is a limitation, it's more the auto slush box that can't take extreme power.

my setup will easily make 500, actually on the stock block even 600 is doable from everything I've been able to determine, with beefed up crank rods & a bit lower compression by building up the 3.7 block then my setup is really going to be able to push closer to the 700hp mark even & the rest of my setup is built to this ~700hp mark far as turbo's & intercooler capacities are concerned

the stick tranny doesn't need much computer interaction, there are no line pressures to regulate & there are no shift solenoids to control, no lock up solinoids... the awd variable solenoid is the only thing that needs controlling & that shouldn't be too difficult to deal with & shouldn't be much different from the control that the fx uses now...

ecu communications wise I haven't nailed down 100% yet as I'm still in the exploratory stages. I'm thinking 2 main possibilities, one would be to remove much of the complications by flashing a rom modified from a stick shift rom, another being the possibility of maintaining the auto transmission ecu in the circuit & then just simulating the various solenoids & controls of the auto tranny itself, keeping the ecus happy by thinking that it's seeing what it wants to see... either way I'd have to sort this end of it out as I actually do it & try things & yes, I guess I do realize that until I iron out all the bugs I may have a check engine light & trouble codes that I'll need to shoot down one by one, but I don't think I can know all the intricacies of this until I'm knee deep in it... right now is more exploring where the starting point should be, is the r32/33 5 speed strong enough or should I really be holding out to try to find a getrag 6 speed unit.

I will of course first complete the electronics & everything with the automatic initially, the stick conversion is a down the road type thing, reason the question comes up now rather than later is that I have found a good deal on an r32 unit that I can grab right now... I'm just researching to see if there is anything else I can find out to influence this decision one way or the other

User avatar
donandal
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:30 am
Car: 92 240SX, 2008 350Z, homebuilt roadster
Location: Lakewood New York

Re: VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Postby donandal » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm

Having first hand knowledge of a VQ35HR swap into an S13, I can only say I completely
agree that this is no easy swap.
My son dreamed up this swap a few years back, and we decided early on to
read up on the swap while we searched for a car.
He found a perfect rust free 92 240SX coupe two years ago, in Miami Fla.
A couple months later we found a donor 2008 350Z in Salem, Mass. It was a front end
crash and blew both airbags.
From reading up on the VQ35HR, we could see real problems if we didn't incorporate
the ECU, body module,NATS,steering column key, and wiring harnesses.
Not being an electrical expert, I could only see doing a complete harness swap for the entire
car.
Thats what we did. We removed the ENTIRE 240SX electrical system,and swapped in the ENTIRE
350Z system. We swapped in ALL emissions components, swapped in the entire 350Z Dash with
all controls and components,swapped in the steering column, the Air. Cond.,fuel sending units and
pump,the entire stereo system with amplifiers and antenaeas. We swapped in the Z rear diff and Z
tranny. Essentially, we made a 350Z in a 240SX shell. About the only things we did not swap were
the antiskid,VDC,airbags and seats. ( allthough we may keep the seats ).
From our build thread you can see some of the fabrication required.
We had to shorten the headers,change the engine crossmember,make a tranny mount,and rework the
rear subframe to carry the Z diff. We reworked the Z dash support and swapped in all of the dash.
We also had to move the steering column closer to the frame rail to clear the starter.
We kept all harnesses the same length, and luckily they were long enough or too long, where we could
just take up the slack in our routing. We even made a new "riser" that we soldered on to a new 240SX
gas tank to allow us to use the Z sending unit and pump. ( the Z has 2 pickups in the tank ).
We made our own shorter shifter housing as well.( the internet/forums showing the coupler shortened
to eliminate any round shaft on the link made the shifter feel awkward so we added back about 1 inch )
All of this may have paid off though, since it fired right up first try.
Even still, we have lites on for VDC,slip,brakes, and airbags that still need to be resolved, but it seems
to run fine.( don't have a lot of miles on it yet, so we'll keep our fingers crossed )
I'm sure there is even more I am forgetting, but you get the point.
There is a TON of Fabrication and a HUGE amount of electrical to consider.
Good luck with your builds !!!

dmuramoto
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:20 pm
Car: 350Z street, 350Z GT3 and T3 racecars, Versa HB and Infiniti G37xS sedan

Re: VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Postby dmuramoto » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:59 pm

Don- I can only hope your son put in a lot of busted knuckles and sweat equity on the 240SX project since he originally dreamed it up. Sounds like you had MONTHS of work and still have more to resolve the remaining issues. Does your son still think it was all worth it?

User avatar
SteveTheTech
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:20 pm
Car: 15 Sentra SR
12 G37x Coupe
-Formerly-
05 Mazda 6 L3 Sport, 95 J30, 94 D22
Location: Chantilly, Va
Contact:

Re: VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Postby SteveTheTech » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:53 pm

dmuramoto wrote: Does your son still think it was all worth it?
Now that's a great question.

I know if I were a youngin doing this over the course of months I would be willing to go to school or whatever else would be possible to never have to do this for a living. I am so impatient.

User avatar
donandal
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:30 am
Car: 92 240SX, 2008 350Z, homebuilt roadster
Location: Lakewood New York

Re: VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Postby donandal » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:03 pm

Well,lets put it this way,
He lives in Florida and the car is at my shop in New York.
He has put in the time when he can get up...He's
a computer programmer in Florida.
We've spent some serious money on Southwest Airlines...
He has been the Brains of the project from the beginning,
and He's learned a lot about fabricating. He also has done
both Mig and Tig welding, so it's been a good project.
Best of all, It has given Dad a chance to stay in touch and gives
us something to talk about and look forward to.
I think he is probably more excited now that we're near getting
it on the road. Also, unlike his Dad, he has a very even smooth
laid back temperment about these things.....I'm the impatient
one, but I am driven to finish what I start.
it-s-a-subaru-t526489.html
this Subaru was my project, that got him interested.
After we finish the 240, I've got to get my Subaru finished

User avatar
donandal
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:30 am
Car: 92 240SX, 2008 350Z, homebuilt roadster
Location: Lakewood New York

Re: VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Postby donandal » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:24 pm

Oh Guys,
My wife just sat down and made probably
the best observation after reading these posts.
She sees how much Allen has learned on this project,
and how now he fixes everything on his own car, and even
helps his friends fix theirs. He just did a brake job last week
for a buddy. He bought a boat and
does all the maintenance on that, and even rewired the
entire boat trailer and motor trim switch.
They pick up more than you think....

turbocad6
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:42 pm
Car: 03 fx35

Re: VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Postby turbocad6 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:06 pm

wow, Don, I'll tell you, although on your thread it seems most guys are saying you did this the hard way, honestly in a sense I'd say that really you did it in the easiest way possible from a technical point of view... like you said, get everything from the z into the other car, plug everything in & fire it up. that is really one awesome job you guys are doing though & man, your fabrication skills are just awesome too...

User avatar
donandal
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:30 am
Car: 92 240SX, 2008 350Z, homebuilt roadster
Location: Lakewood New York

Re: VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Postby donandal » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:19 pm

Thanks,
I thought it was the easiest way too!
My other son Brian is also considering a project
after he graduates from college and gets a job.
My son Allen wants to do more technical stuff
on our next project... like a turbo setup and maybe
a mega squirt....so If some one sorts that all out, and they
can read up on it, we could all do another VQ into
something like a home built two seat open wheel tube
chassis and try to keep it under 1800 lbs.
That would be some fun fabrication.
I've been down the road for New York state
DMV regitration of a custom homebuilt car, and it is
actually pretty easy and straight forward.
We'll keep you posted...

flynbyu82
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:37 am

Re: VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Postby flynbyu82 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:02 am

It certainly isn't the cheapest way of doing it and I have a hard time believing it it the easiest way either...

Wiring a vq 240sx was my first electrical project ever... it was really, really easy. Just get NATS removed, and it's downhill from there... I've contemplated doing a vq37hr swap now, and after looking over the wiring diagrams, the only real difference appears to be the addition of the VVEL control unit...

I could certainly see how putting HR into a DE could pose problems if you want to the car to act factory, but as far as transplanting these engines into other chassis, its a breeze. All the mumbo jumbo Steve was spitting about the 'sensitivity of wire lengths' etc is nonsense...

flynbyu82
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:37 am

Re: VQ engine swaps- a royal PITA?

Postby flynbyu82 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:39 pm

I do concede that the seperate ECU connector that is not in the engine harness for the HR does add a bit more work... however, turbocad, you say the DE harness does not include all ECU connectors in the engine harness? That is incorrect...


Return to “VQ30DE / VQ35DE / VQ35HR Forum”