VIpec VS power FC vs AEM VS nistune etc etc...

[flatrate]

im in the market for engine managment... Id like to hear from people with experience with various units...

Im leaning towards Vipec ... i like the new AEM EMS but it hasnt released yet and damit i cant wait any longer.. they keep telling me "another month man another month"

the only things i dont care for about vipec is it only has 4 ignition outputs it only reads in celcious and KPA and im sure theres something else but i havent actually used one... just judgeing by sifting thru the software..

Discuss

[eh?]

If you can't get the aem get the haltech ps2000. I can't speak from experience but it's bound to be good. You missed out on a GB and normal prices also may have gone up though.

Nothing wrong with 4 ignition outputs, I have 5 with the s1 aem and it runs fine in batch fire mode.

[robbie2883]

Nothing wrong with 4 ignition outputs, I have 5 with the s1 aem and it runs fine in batch fire mode.

do you mean waste spark? batch fire refers to injectors. just out of curiousity how are you running 5 channels on either the ignition or the injection? most you would need for batch fire / waste spark would be 3 on a 6 cylinder motor

to the OP...both aem and haltech are great FULL STAND ALONE options. they will need ALOT more tuning to be running correctly and will most likely need a retune after the first 6-12 months. (mostly for cruise conditions and weather changes) the PFC or any other pnp option will be premapped and MUCH easier to tune and much cheaper. but won't have all the options of a full stand alone. it's really up to what you're comfortable dealing with and how much you want to spend.

[toadx8u]

yeah you missed the group buy me and los had...i bought 2 haltechs..the best thing about them is they incorporate VE tune...and will auto tune your ecu for the best configuration... then you can fine tune as you see fit...

[eh?]

do you mean waste spark? batch fire refers to injectors. just out of curiousity how are you running 5 channels on either the ignition or the injection? most you would need for batch fire / waste spark would be 3 on a 6 cylinder motor

to the OP...both aem and haltech are great FULL STAND ALONE options. they will need ALOT more tuning to be running correctly and will most likely need a retune after the first 6-12 months. (mostly for cruise conditions and weather changes) the PFC or any other pnp option will be premapped and MUCH easier to tune and much cheaper. but won't have all the options of a full stand alone. it's really up to what you're comfortable dealing with and how much you want to spend.

Batch fire/wasted spark, same thing. I have 5 ignition drivers but 3 are used. I also have 10 injector drivers but 6 are used. It's totally configurable.

Have to tune more for an aem is totally untrue. I've had the power fc and sold it for the aem. No regrets.Firstly, it already has a base map for RB20,25 and 26. It's drive-able with the base map. It will take a few more minutes to set up the aem with maf vs a pfc because you need to upload the RB25 baseline map to it.

It's is FAR quicker and easier to tune with MAP and boost comp. The Wideband o2 feed back implementation negates the need tune every cell exactly for cruise. I glad I don't have to deal with map trace anymore. There's a s*** ton of things the aem /vipec /haltec can do that a pfc or low cost option (ie: nistune) can't do.

[robbie2883]

yeah you missed the group buy me and los had...i bought 2 haltechs..the best thing about them is they incorporate VE tune...and will auto tune your ecu for the best configuration... then you can fine tune as you see fit...

is that the platnium? i used to tune with haltech and played with the platnium software while it was in developement. nice stuff, i just am not tuning anymore so have been out of the loop for the past 2 years.

Batch fire/wasted spark, same thing. I have 5 ignition drivers but 3 are used. I also have 10 injector drivers but 6 are used. It's totally configurable.

Have to tune more for an aem is totally untrue. I've had the power fc and sold it for the aem. No regrets.Firstly, it already has a base map for RB20,25 and 26. It's drive-able with the base map. It will take a few more minutes to set up the aem with maf vs a pfc because you need to upload the RB25 baseline map to it.

It's is FAR quicker and easier to tune with MAP and boost comp. The Wideband o2 feed back implementation negates the need tune every cell exactly for cruise. I glad I don't have to deal with map trace anymore. There's a s*** ton of things the aem /vipec /haltec can do that a pfc or low cost option (ie: nistune) can't do.

i gotcha...i did not realize the ame had basemaps for the rb's. having basemaps makes ALL the difference in the world

[ItzGenX]

I've tuned 2 haltech Platinum series ecus, a P1000 on SR20(480whp) and P2000 on RB26(502whp). I stepped into it thinking it would be like what I've been used to seeing from the E6X, E8, E11v2 etc, but to my surprise, it was pretty damn easy compared to them. Both engines on Platinum were fairly easy to tune with VE Tuning to build me a close to accurate base map. After just doing the VE Tuning in the software, they were both very driveable. A trip to the dyno to fine tune certain cells is all that would be needed. As an estimate, I could have manually cleaned up the maps in 30-40 minutes on a dyno or *disclaimer* closed course for more aggressive timing , but the owners of those vehicles were fine with the way they were tuned as-is.

Compared to AEM tuning, I used to think the AEM ecu's were easier to tune vs the older haltechs, but the new Platinum series are easier then AEM units to me.

The only problem I hear about the AEM units is that you must use their CAS disc (supplied with the ecu). The Haltech units (even the older ones) can function with the stock CAS.

[eh?]

The only problem I hear about the AEM units is that you must use their CAS disc (supplied with the ecu). The Haltech units (even the older ones) can function with the stock CAS.

You only need to use the aem cas disk ONLY if you have trouble with timing sync. Seems like only cars with swapped RB's had the problem but most Skylines didn't. FWIW Autech also has a CAS disk for the RB.

[virus77]

I really like my Nistune, unless you are doing drag racing religiously it probably has all the the features you would want for a street/track car and its a buttload cheaper.

[spolitte]

Anyone know if AEM has sold some of the series 2 ems for testing in RB's? As far as I am aware, all series 1 aem's are the ones with the silver case with black and yellow on it and only the series 2 ems are the black box with white lettering (in otherwords there are no black box w/ white lettering series 1 EMS's out there right)?

Anyways, just wanted to throw it out there that the aem EMS for KA's and SR's are on sale at enjukuracing right now and since those are normally the same price as the EMS for RB's maybe the guys over there would be willing to cut the sale price for the RB computers? Given its only series 1 (I know OP wanted series 2), but its about $500 off right now making it just as cheap as the PFC.

Also, gotta love having enough ign outputs to not have to run a waste spark setup and over-use those pesky, pricey coilpacks.

[flatrate]

Id really like to have direct fire ignition if im gonna spend that kinda money.. the haltech seems promising... not much more than Vipec either not sure of its knock capabilities... but i havent heard much good about knock control from AEM or Vipec EMS either... this is the only thing i need..

I saw that the Haltech supports Peak and hold injectors... (low impedence) i have high impedence injectors already (850cc) will it support them?

[flatrate]

they also make a platinum pro version... no patch harness needed.. its cheaper than the the sport and has more features... its plug and play for the RB

[spolitte]

I haven't heard much good news about aem/nistune/ or haltechs knock control features myself; however, from what I understand is that the problem with aftermarket ecu knock detection on a unit like the AEM is the sensor itself, and not the softwares ability to convert a knock signal into a useful piece of data that advances or retards ignition accordingly (mind you this is heresay, information I have picked up from a couple of local tuners as well as a few forums so take it with a grain of salt).

As for the Haltech being able to support peak and hold injectors (low impedance) I believe this is just an added option as it normally is setup for saturated injectors (high impedance), but has the option to run in peak and hold format incase you ever decide to switch to low imp injectors so you won't have to wire up a resistor.

[flatrate]

I think im gonna go with the haltech

[WhatsADSM]

I haven't heard much good news about aem/nistune/ or haltechs knock control features myself; however, from what I understand is that the problem with aftermarket ecu knock detection on a unit like the AEM is the sensor itself, and not the softwares ability to convert a knock signal into a useful piece of data that advances or retards ignition accordingly (mind you this is heresay, information I have picked up from a couple of local tuners as well as a few forums so take it with a grain of salt).

As for the Haltech being able to support peak and hold injectors (low impedance) I believe this is just an added option as it normally is setup for saturated injectors (high impedance), but has the option to run in peak and hold format incase you ever decide to switch to low imp injectors so you won't have to wire up a resistor.

I think I have written about it a few times in terms of knock control (or rather lack thereof) in aftermarket EMS systems, so feel free to do a search for knock and my SN.

The issue is the NOT lack of features and typically NOT a problem with the knock sensor. The real problem with knock control in the aftermarket EMSes is that the the firmware/hardware is not configured to properly read the stock sensors. Knock sensors are acoustical sensors which should be analyzed in the frequency domain for a specific knock frequency windowed around the most likely time for knock (i.e. just after ignition, while combusting). However most EMSes simply look at the knock sensor voltage in the time domain which is essentially useless. Moral of the story don't rely on the knock detection of almost any EMS out there because it won't be accurate. The best detection would likely be found in the Nistune, since it is utilizing the stock hardware and most of the stock firmware which is tuned correctly to use the stock sensors.

Also in general my vote is for Nistune. It is the best overall for a street/strip car, not to mention the price advantage. If you are going for a more balls-to-the-walls race setup then go with an EMS and I'd probably give the nod to the new haltech p2000 (mind you I have an AEM )

[ItzGenX]

The normal universal Haltech units don't even support knock such as the Platinum Sports. The direct plug in Platinum Pro series does support knock control (specifically for it's application), which is available for RB engines. It's not the universal type knock control that monitors raw voltage either from what I was told from a Haltech tech and should work similar to stock.

No matter what type of EMS I tune, I usually use my own home made detonation ears clipped to the block to listen to the engine while tuning. It is basically two high sensitivity computer microphones with wide range of frequency operation epoxied onto all copper battery clips from a pair of jumper cables. I usually clip them both to the block. The wire is the standard stereo microphone wire with 3.5mm jack that goes into the laptop I tune from. I unmute the microphone on the laptop I tune with and use a set of Bose over-the-ear type headphones. These work far better then any knock control I have ever ran into (usually catch pings and such long before the ecu does).

[240z4u]

Not sure if Whatsadsm mentioned it, but the PFC does detect knock but will not pull timing for knock (which is a bad thing IMO).

[toadx8u]

yeah but just like whatsadsm said...it only reads voltage...you shoulda seen my peak knock when i would turn my 2 step on....we are talkin a 200+ reading as you know from the datalogit community anything over 30 iirc is bad...so i would just laugh at my PFC for this information...

[eh?]

I think I have written about it a few times in terms of knock control (or rather lack thereof) in aftermarket EMS systems, so feel free to do a search for knock and my SN.

The issue is the NOT lack of features and typically NOT a problem with the knock sensor. The real problem with knock control in the aftermarket EMSes is that the the firmware/hardware is not configured to properly read the stock sensors. Knock sensors are acoustical sensors which should be analyzed in the frequency domain for a specific knock frequency windowed around the most likely time for knock (i.e. just after ignition, while combusting). However most EMSes simply look at the knock sensor voltage in the time domain which is essentially useless. Moral of the story don't rely on the knock detection of almost any EMS out there because it won't be accurate. The best detection would likely be found in the Nistune, since it is utilizing the stock hardware and most of the stock firmware which is tuned correctly to use the stock sensors.

Also in general my vote is for Nistune. It is the best overall for a street/strip car, not to mention the price advantage. If you are going for a more balls-to-the-walls race setup then go with an EMS and I'd probably give the nod to the new haltech p2000 (mind you I have an AEM )

Are you talking about the lack of bandpass filters in the standalones? The S2 aem now has selectable center frequency for knock sensing. Knock Monitoring during combustion cycle is configured with "knock tooth". What if the nissan KS are narrowband, would a bandpass filter be needed?

[WhatsADSM]

The normal universal Haltech units don't even support knock such as the Platinum Sports. The direct plug in Platinum Pro series does support knock control (specifically for it's application), which is available for RB engines. It's not the universal type knock control that monitors raw voltage either from what I was told from a Haltech tech and should work similar to stock.

No matter what type of EMS I tune, I usually use my own home made detonation ears clipped to the block to listen to the engine while tuning. It is basically two high sensitivity computer microphones with wide range of frequency operation epoxied onto all copper battery clips from a pair of jumper cables. I usually clip them both to the block. The wire is the standard stereo microphone wire with 3.5mm jack that goes into the laptop I tune from. I unmute the microphone on the laptop I tune with and use a set of Bose over-the-ear type headphones. These work far better then any knock control I have ever ran into (usually catch pings and such long before the ecu does).

If all the haltech is doing is monitoring raw voltage then no, it doesn't work well and in most cases the stock ECU WILL do a better job since it doesn't just monitor raw knock voltage in the time domain.

As for the whole DET cans. Yes I am familiar with them, but to think you can catch knock better than a tuned engine computer is laughable. Proper computer hardware and software can not only decern the correct knock frequency much better than a human, but it can also detect it at almost ANY desired amplitude in the misdt of hundreds of other noises, and it can do it on a stroke-by-stroke bases. I have used DET cans before on plenty of engines and on ones with a good knock control systems such as a modern ecu (like my SRT-4) the stock ECU was putting up knock numbers FAR FAR before I could hear it, and they were real. I put in race gas and it went away.

Are you talking about the lack of bandpass filters in the standalones? The S2 aem now has selectable center frequency for knock sensing. Knock Monitoring during combustion cycle is configured with "knock tooth". What if the nissan KS are narrowband, would a bandpass filter be needed?

I never knew that was one of the features of the S2. That is awesome that the S2 will correctly bandpass. I wonder how much amplification it can provide... that would be the only missing piece.

Essentially yes I am sort of talking about the lack of bandpass filters in standalones. Although there are actually a few ways of obtaining the frequency information.

If you want to analyze the signal in the time-domain you can bandpass, rectify, and window around the combustion cycle. The voltage which comes out IS essentially a frequency domain output.. and that is how the acoustical sensors are supposed to work.

Otherwise you can take samples in the time domain and perform DFT on the signal (again windowed around the combustion cycle) bring it to the frequency domain, and analyze for whatever frequencies you want, all in (digital) software.

Either the first more hardware centric approach or the second software approach will work and give you the correct results.

So yea with that said, if the AEM S2 really does have some better knock sensing hardware/firmware then I would definately say that puts it back above the haltech. In general I put such a big emphasis on knock sensing because in many/most cases it is actually knock that hurts a motor, not sheer AFR or EGTs like people think. And that is esspecially true as people push stock motors to their limits.

[eh?]

What about the sensor types? I can't find any information about the RB knock sensors. I do know the RB26 and RB20/25 are different. RB26 are black, two pin and RB20/25 are gold, single pin.I *think* RB26 KS are broadband (flat type, non resonate) and the RB20/25 are narrowband ( spike resonant).

If the RB20/25 are narrowband wouldn't that negate the need for a bandpass filter and you can use voltage to determine knock intensity?I've wondered why my KS were so quiet in the aem logs but I think them being narrowband is the reason why.

Sorry for going OT.

[ItzGenX]

If all the haltech is doing is monitoring raw voltage then no, it doesn't work well and in most cases the stock ECU WILL do a better job since it doesn't just monitor raw knock voltage in the time domain.

The Platinum Pro direct plug in units should read frequency, not voltage. I said it is NOT the universal voltage reading type.

On another note, the human ear isn't going to necessarily pick up the sound by det cans, but I use the laptop as a sound carrier for a reason. The microphone's sensitivity plays a big role here, so if you use cheap ones with a narrow frequency scale, you'll never catch much of the knock. If you open up windows media player at the same time and put the visualization to equalizer type bars (ocean mist), the far right 1-3 bars (high frequency end of the scale) will begin to spike before you can even hear the pings. You can even filter out engine bay noise by pulling those frequencies out that rise with free revs through the equalizer so the cans won't feedback so much noise through the headphones. You usually don't physically hear pings in the headphones until the 4-8 right bars begin to spike which sound like BBs being dropped on the floor one by one.

[WhatsADSM]

What about the sensor types? I can't find any information about the RB knock sensors. I do know the RB26 and RB20/25 are different. RB26 are black, two pin and RB20/25 are gold, single pin.I *think* RB26 KS are broadband (flat type, non resonate) and the RB20/25 are narrowband ( spike resonant).

If the RB20/25 are narrowband wouldn't that negate the need for a bandpass filter and you can use voltage to determine knock intensity?I've wondered why my KS were so quiet in the aem logs but I think them being narrowband is the reason why.

Sorry for going OT.

Type of knock sensor would matter a little and if it were a narrowband sensor it would help filter/bandpass some of the frequencies. However you have to realize a few things:

1) Almost all knock sensors have a wideband. I think it is due to cost, typically cheaper to make, and can be applied to many vehicles in the lineup.2) Even if it were "narrow" band I'm not sure how narrow it would be. It would liekyl be very difficult to have a sharp cutouf around a center frequency and I'd bet with the roll off you would still probably need some sort of a bandpass to get a shaper cutoff.3) Even if it were narrow band the signal is still AC, and would need to be recified and windowed around combustion. So still even with a narrowband sensor a simple raw voltage reading is not appropriate.

Yea the knock sensor readings on the S1 RB ecu are useless. Quiet most of the time, and when they do show something it hardly follows real knock. I've pulled timing, increased octane and it really doesn't do anything. Moral of the story you can't rely on it for anything. However if it were amplified, bandpassed, rectified and windowed then I'd bet the signal works really well.

[flatrate]

A knock sensor system is a nice feature but in my experiences using your own human ear a bit of knowledge a dyno and careful tuning is just fine

I use a "det can" set up which consists of headphones LPG rubber hose a copper fitting (attachs to block) and put them on my head i can hear alot with those on...

Tuning to MBT (maximum Brake Toruqe) and reading spark plugs served me just fine on my other car and friends cars which all are making over 500whp on pump gas out of 1.8-2.2L engines, spark plug reading is a very accurate when done correctly, the only down side is removing and replacing plugs..

My other car doesnt have any kind of knock system and ive been over 600whp on pump and meth for 2+years

All this talk about filters amplifiers etc sounds expensive and a waste of time... the old school way still works great

Just my 2 cents

[flatrate]

OH, i made a decision and went with the Haltech Platinum Pro plug and play im anxious to pick it apart...

Vipec and AEM are nice systems but i think having fully sequential ignition is a nice fearture to have and should be incorrperated when purchasing a system that cost as much as these do...not to mention its cheaper than both Vipec and AEM

[spolitte]

Congratulations! I've talked to a few people who are in love with their Haltech's (albeit non of them have a platinum series ecu) so I'm sure you will love it even more so.

Let us know when the ECU comes in and how you like it

[WhatsADSM]

All this talk about filters amplifiers etc sounds expensive and a waste of time... the old school way still works great

Just my 2 cents

Congrats on the purchase. The p2000 is a pretty nice setup and they keep comign out with FW and SW updates to make it better.

In terms of knock if knock sensing was a waste of time and it was better to just do it by ear none of the OEMs would spend tons of time/money into making better and better knock detection systems. Just as carburetors can get the job done, fuel injectors are certainly a step up.

[ItzGenX]

OH, i made a decision and went with the Haltech Platinum Pro plug and play im anxious to pick it apart...

Vipec and AEM are nice systems but i think having fully sequential ignition is a nice fearture to have and should be incorrperated when purchasing a system that cost as much as these do...not to mention its cheaper than both Vipec and AEM

If you plan on using input options such as launch control etc, then don't forget to pick up the optional input harness. Since the Pro version is direct plug and play using the stock harness, it lacks the extra harness wires to hook up the optional in/outs.

[flatrate]

yeah i got the harness IAT and boost solenoid

I just dont really trust the knock sensors much... as things like forged pistons. exhuast and all the other noises associated with modifying cars throws it off.... works on stock cars with cast pistons and tight PW clearances great... seems like everyones got there own way to avoid detonation

[spolitte]

OP, was just curious when the last time you talked to AEM and they said 'one more month'? Lookin on aem's website today the s2 ems is out for sale at $1900ish. I know you are going with the Haltech anyways, so I guess it doesn't matter.

Also, I had previously asked in this thread if only s2 ems' were black casings with white letterings and if s1's were strictly silver box with yellow and black lettering, and I can only assume the answer is yes, but if anyone can verify this I'd really appreciate it. Thanks