vh45de starting problems. need help asap.

[CrazyTrance]

So i finally got around to trying to start my vh'd 240sx (s13). FIrst problem was that the fuel pump didn't prime. I know this because its a walbro 255 and it should be LOUD. So thats mainly why it didn't fire.. but anyways.

But something that concerns me is that when i turn it over it seems to turn over very slow. And it has a whine to it. Also something that really concerns me is that there is a clunking noise coming from the front of the engine when it gets turned over. I know for a fact that the timing chain guides were replaced because i took the front covers off to check. I should note that thecar was hooked up via jumper cables to my integra. Wold this be part of the reason for the slow cranking over? Or is poor grounding to blame.

Also, when i took the valve covers off the aluminum inside looked BRAND new. Here are pictures of my exact heads. There is very little if any abnormal wear on the cam lobes. So seeing these results i would think this engine should be good with no problems... right?

Passenger side.



Drivers side.

[npez]

Can't comment on the clunking you're hearing as that could be a 1000 different things; but a couple of things you may want to look at. 1) Rev the integra to about 3-4K when you're cranking the VH as the alternator on the integra is putting out hardly any amps at idle and the honda/integra batteries are typically pretty small. 2) Are you positive that you have a known good battery in your S13? A bad battery (dead cell, etc.) will act like a load when you try to jump it and may cause the starter to turn slow. You may want to disconnect the battery on the S13 and jumper directly to your +/- pole wiring without the battery connected. 3) speaking of wiring you may want to check that you have good wiring to the starter as well as a good ground wire between the (-) pole wire and the chassis as well as the grounds from the engine to the chassis.

If this doesn't correct the slow crank you're experiencing, it could be a weak starter, or an inordinate amount of load on the starter due to a mechanical issue with the motor.

Just some thoughts to get you started....

Nick.

[craigztoyz]

So i finally got around to trying to start my vh'd 240sx (s13). FIrst problem was that the fuel pump didn't prime. I know this because its a walbro 255 and it should be LOUD. So thats mainly why it didn't fire.. but anyways.

But something that concerns me is that when i turn it over it seems to turn over very slow. And it has a whine to it. Also something that really concerns me is that there is a clunking noise coming from the front of the engine when it gets turned over. I know for a fact that the timing chain guides were replaced because i took the front covers off to check. I should note that thecar was hooked up via jumper cables to my integra. Wold this be part of the reason for the slow cranking over? Or is poor grounding to blame.

Also, when i took the valve covers off the aluminum inside looked BRAND new. Here are pictures of my exact heads. There is very little if any abnormal wear on the cam lobes. So seeing these results i would think this engine should be good with no problems... right?

Passenger side.



Drivers side.

First, I was there very recently. Its all good. First, you need more battey power. the clanking sound, is the timing chain slack. It went away after starting it the first time. Before that, it was scarey sounding.The whine, well, I had a few sounds like that at just cranking for the first time in 4 years kind of sounds, they too went. the walbro, I can say, I can barely hear at the tank. Not loud really. hold the fuel line, have a buddy turn it on and off, if there is a fuel pulse, you Will feel it.Use a set of Noid lights to see if injectors are firing. Is Red light on side of computer?

USE STARTER FLUID AT THE MAF> Works great to find if you have spark, and if oyou have it part throttle, and a good spary, you can keep it running to build up some oil pressure. Kept mine running for over a minute.

Past that, give me a email, we can chat when you need, and I can walk you through it, and try to help.Oh yeah, are you SURE it has good grounds for the ecu? Use a test light to be sure you have power at all you r power wires, and that the relays are getting trigger wires. Do you have the cranking wire hooked up? I went through my wiring 2 times trying to figure out why mine wouldnt start, and what I jsut said was a large part of the diagnosis process. Good luck, Craig But first get lots of battery power, this thing should freakn fly when the starter is hitting it.

[craigztoyz]

FYI, After all the bs, I now have it to where I just touch the Key over and it starts.

[CrazyTrance]

Can't comment on the clunking you're hearing as that could be a 1000 different things; but a couple of things you may want to look at. 1) Rev the integra to about 3-4K when you're cranking the VH as the alternator on the integra is putting out hardly any amps at idle and the honda/integra batteries are typically pretty small. 2) Are you positive that you have a known good battery in your S13? A bad battery (dead cell, etc.) will act like a load when you try to jump it and may cause the starter to turn slow. You may want to disconnect the battery on the S13 and jumper directly to your +/- pole wiring without the battery connected. 3) speaking of wiring you may want to check that you have good wiring to the starter as well as a good ground wire between the (-) pole wire and the chassis as well as the grounds from the engine to the chassis.

If this doesn't correct the slow crank you're experiencing, it could be a weak starter, or an inordinate amount of load on the starter due to a mechanical issue with the motor.

Just some thoughts to get you started....

Nick.

Thank you, yeah we didn't rev the engine up at all.. so that might be what you are talking about. And i have not gotten a battery for the s13 yet. It was just hooked up straight to the ground and power cables with jumper cables.

Thanks a BUNCH for your help Nick!

First, I was there very recently. Its all good. First, you need more battey power. the clanking sound, is the timing chain slack. It went away after starting it the first time. Before that, it was scarey sounding.The whine, well, I had a few sounds like that at just cranking for the first time in 4 years kind of sounds, they too went. the walbro, I can say, I can barely hear at the tank. Not loud really. hold the fuel line, have a buddy turn it on and off, if there is a fuel pulse, you Will feel it.Use a set of Noid lights to see if injectors are firing. Is Red light on side of computer?

USE STARTER FLUID AT THE MAF> Works great to find if you have spark, and if oyou have it part throttle, and a good spary, you can keep it running to build up some oil pressure. Kept mine running for over a minute.

Past that, give me a email, we can chat when you need, and I can walk you through it, and try to help.Oh yeah, are you SURE it has good grounds for the ecu? Use a test light to be sure you have power at all you r power wires, and that the relays are getting trigger wires. Do you have the cranking wire hooked up? I went through my wiring 2 times trying to figure out why mine wouldnt start, and what I jsut said was a large part of the diagnosis process. Good luck, Craig But first get lots of battery power, this thing should freakn fly when the starter is hitting it.

Holy crap craig. You have jus made my night. I've been stressing out so much cuz i've been thinking something is seriously wrong with the engine. Hopefully its just like your talking about. That clunking noise has seriously gotten me worried but what you said makes sense and i did kind of think of that but wasn't quite sure.

Also, i'm not 100% sure on my wiring. I did it last year and i'm not really sure i wired up the ignitors correctly. It's really hard figuring out this wiring on your own without a guide or anything. If you have any advice on that i would really appreciate it.

I'll get a new battery tomorrow, some starting fluid, double check my fuel pump like you said. But we went and listened in the trunk and couldn't hear ANYTHING when the key was turned to the on position, no priming or anything.

Thanks craig for all of your help, maybe i can actually get some sleep now haha. I'll be keeping in touch for SURE.

[Carl H]

lol, wiring this engine was easy...i had that done 4 weeks ago.

[CrazyTrance]

lol, wiring this engine was easy...i had that done 4 weeks ago.

Thank you SO much for your informative information... how does that help me. I have mine wired also. But not correctly apparently. The red light on the ecu is on, what does this mean? Also i have no spark as it does not fire with starting fluid..

If you could post what wires you wired in or some sort of diagram that would be really helpful. My EGI pump relay is fluttering uncontrolably, so something is wrong.
Modified by CrazyTrance at 3:00 PM 8/2/2008

[npez]

Thank you SO much for your informative information... how does that help me. I have mine wired also. But not correctly apparently. The red light on the ecu is on, what does this mean? Also i have no spark as it does not fire with starting fluid..

If you could post what wires you wired in or some sort of diagram that would be really helpful. My EGI pump relay is fluttering uncontrolably, so something is wrong.

Modified by CrazyTrance at 12:46 PM 8/2/2008

The LED on the ECM is a good thing - it means it's on. I suspect you've got a weak ground somewhere. As I suggested to Craig when he was having a challenge with his, take all your ECU grounds tie them together and ground them to a single grounding point. Also check your battery ground cable and make sure you have a good connection there, as well as the grounds from the the motor to the chasis. You'll see grounds going from each power transistor to the back of the engine make sure they're still connected.

If you look on NICO/VH45 forum I have written up a pretty comprehensive 300zx->VH45 wiring integration document that explains all the wires with corresponding 300ZX wires. Not a lot of help when cross connecting to a 240, but it will give you a lot of information that wil help you understand where the fault may or may not be.

I hope this helps out a bit....

Thanks,Nick.

[CrazyTrance]

The LED on the ECM is a good thing - it means it's on. I suspect you've got a weak ground somewhere. As I suggested to Craig when he was having a challenge with his, take all your ECU grounds tie them together and ground them to a single grounding point. Also check your battery ground cable and make sure you have a good connection there, as well as the grounds from the the motor to the chasis. You'll see grounds going from each power transistor to the back of the engine make sure they're still connected.

If you look on NICO/VH45 forum I have written up a pretty comprehensive 300zx->VH45 wiring integration document that explains all the wires with corresponding 300ZX wires. Not a lot of help when cross connecting to a 240, but it will give you a lot of information that wil help you understand where the fault may or may not be.

I hope this helps out a bit....

Thanks,Nick.

Thanks for that!

ok. so i've been looking through the q45 fsm to figure out why i'm not getting spark. I have power to the coil packs and the power transistors are connected directly to the ecu. So there should be spark right? WRONG

Yes, everything is hooked up like it should be. But i am missing one important thing. The ignition coil RELAY.

Why? Think of your fuel pump. When you turn the key to the on position it sends a signal to a relay, which in turn sends a signal to your fuel pump control unit which finally tells the fuel pump what the **** is up.

So in this case, the power transistor doesn't know what to do because i have NO ignition coil relay telling the ecu that yes, ok i have the key turned on. So it doesn't send a signal to the power transistor which in turn doesn't send a signal to the coil packs to turn the **** on so i can roast the **** outta my tires.. So no signal, no gravy.

THAT is what i think is wrong and why i have no spark. I'm not 100% sure yet, but i'm pretty sure this is what the problem is. I'll let you guys know for sure tomorrow. Or if i'm still stuck in a ditch, moving nowhere fast.

So let me know what you guys think! Think i'm right?? Or am i just making **** up. Post!

ANyways, here is the diagram for the ingition signal system and why i think what i think is right, or should be right.

P.S. no i didn't write on the actual book damnit. i have a tablet pc. used an editing program to write it with a paintbrush. so back off

[npez]

Thanks for that!

ok. so i've been looking through the q45 fsm to figure out why i'm not getting spark. I have power to the coil packs and the power transistors are connected directly to the ecu. So there should be spark right? WRONG

Yes, everything is hooked up like it should be. But i am missing one important thing. The ignition coil RELAY.

Why? Think of your fuel pump. When you turn the key to the on position it sends a signal to a relay, which in turn sends a signal to your fuel pump control unit which finally tells the fuel pump what the **** is up.

So in this case, the power transistor doesn't know what to do because i have NO ignition coil relay telling the ecu that yes, ok i have the key turned on. So it doesn't send a signal to the power transistor which in turn doesn't send a signal to the coil packs to turn the **** on so i can roast the **** outta my tires.. So no signal, no gravy.

THAT is what i think is wrong and why i have no spark. I'm not 100% sure yet, but i'm pretty sure this is what the problem is. I'll let you guys know for sure tomorrow. Or if i'm still stuck in a ditch, moving nowhere fast.

So let me know what you guys think! Think i'm right?? Or am i just making **** up. Post!

ANyways, here is the diagram for the ingition signal system and why i think what i think is right, or should be right.

P.S. no i didn't write on the actual book damnit. i have a tablet pc. used an editing program to write it with a paintbrush. so back off

I assumed you had all the relays connected - oops. Yes if there is no IGN relay you won't get spark. The ECM only knows to provide ground to the relay coil to close the contact and complete the cicruit to the power transistors. You'll notice in the diagram that you have (+) going to the relay through a fuse/fusible link, then power going from the other pole to the power transistors. On the other side of the transistors, they are individually grounded hence completing the circuit.

You also have power going to the relay coil from a fuse/fusilble link and the other side of the coil goes to the ECM. As soon as the ECM provides the ground you end up with power to the power transistors.

Hook up the IGN relay and you sould be ok.

Thanks,Nick.

[CrazyTrance]

I assumed you had all the relays connected - oops. Yes if there is no IGN relay you won't get spark. The ECM only knows to provide ground to the relay coil to close the contact and complete the cicruit to the power transistors. You'll notice in the diagram that you have (+) going to the relay through a fuse/fusible link, then power going from the other pole to the power transistors. On the other side of the transistors, they are individually grounded hence completing the circuit.

You also have power going to the relay coil from a fuse/fusilble link and the other side of the coil goes to the ECM. As soon as the ECM provides the ground you end up with power to the power transistors.

Hook up the IGN relay and you sould be ok.

Thanks,Nick.

That is EXACTLY what i am thinking. I didn't think i needed to add a relay for some reason. but if the car never had one well... then.. yeah.

SO hopefully this thing should fire up tomorrow without too many hicups. I'm so excited, sleeping will be a hard thing to do tonight..

Thanks for your help Nick, its been really great. much appreciated.

Chase

[Carl H]

lol, lack of an ignition coil relay is hardly the problem...problem is how you have the power routed or rather dont.brown/yellow wire thick gauge wire needs to be on switched 12v power.

[CrazyTrance]

lol, lack of an ignition coil relay is hardly the problem...problem is how you have the power routed or rather dont.brown/yellow wire thick gauge wire needs to be on switched 12v power.

Could you elaborate on that?

I'm getting spark as it will fire with starter fluid but it runs really rough.

I don't think my injectors are firing because we tested them, there is power to them but the ecu isn't letting them know to fire. Why would this be? Is there something with a security system that was on the q45 that would inhibit the injectors?

Thanks.

[Carl H]

check your cas connections, i have seen a car inject fuel but not spark due to bad cas connections.ive even seen a car spark but not spray fuel because the cas was bad.pull codes and see what the ecu thinks is wrong.

[CrazyTrance]

check your cas connections, i have seen a car inject fuel but not spark due to bad cas connections.ive even seen a car spark but not spray fuel because the cas was bad.pull codes and see what the ecu thinks is wrong.

I checked them, i even tried another cas but that one could have been bad because i kinda handled it roughly over the past couple of years although it came out of a RUNNING q45.

We are not getting any pulse at the injectors. I found out i have spark. When i crank the engine over exhaust smoke is coming out of the headers. so i believe we have spark. We could get the car running with starter fluid and keep it running, but only with starter fluid i might add. But it ran VERY VERY ROUGH. So that brings me back to the injectors not working.

I've tried to pull codes, i cant figure out how to work the damn knob on the ecu.

[CrazyTrance]

check your cas connections, i have seen a car inject fuel but not spark due to bad cas connections.ive even seen a car spark but not spray fuel because the cas was bad.pull codes and see what the ecu thinks is wrong.

Also, if you could post the wires you had to cross over or a diagram if you made one that would be great if its not too much trouble, I'm having the worst time figuring this out.

Thanks,Chase

[craigztoyz]

Chase, Sorry, been busy, driving the holy begezous ou t of my car the last 2 days. HOLY GOD I love it.

Ok back to topic.

Glad you got it up with the fluid, that is step 1. Next do you have fuel pump/pressure? I hooked the vacums from the damper and regulator right up to the ones on bottom of intake. You can squeeze the fuel line by filter to be sure there is a pulse of fuel.

Next, With a Noid light ot know injector is firing(Harbor freight, AutoZone), if no fire, check every connector. Also you need to check to be sure you have power and ground where you are supposed to.(worth cutting into the loom's covering now, and rewrap to be sure).I redid all my ground like Nick said. In the r/d after it running lately, I have found that the only grounds needed to make it run are the 2 at the VVT. They muyst tie into the others inharness. The black/red wire that is supposed to be 10a, #16 on the ecu, Is utterly useless on my car, as it does not make a difference if it has power or not, runs the same.

I did put in a switch in console to turn off power to inj, another that controls ECU power, and one more that is inline to the FP ground. The first 2 are laid off the main relay. Just my way though.

Back off topic. This thing got everyone in the neighborhood out, WHAAAAAAAP, WHHAAAAAAAAAPP, WWWWHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAP.

Loud, and sounds like nothing else, especially with just 8" of duct to maf, and nothing past it's screen. It sounds nothing like a V8, The other time I had it out, was like 10 minutes. I made a sump adjustment that added a few extra quarts, and Beat the Hell out of it. From a dead stop, nicely up to the top of 4th, and into 5th, and a ways through that too. But sur was a blast. Pulling motor to make a new final pan, and get it up and running in next 3-4 days, all detailed, and on to body and interior.

Chase, if you have power on red at cas, and neg at green, and wires are connected to cas, tps, maf...., fuel pressure, and spark, and it still wont start, email me. and we can walk through it on phone, much easier to get through the wiring. Good Luck, Craig

[CrazyTrance]

I think i'll have to get one of those NOID lights like you are talking about. I have this craftsman voltage tester which i used to test if the injectors were firing, might work the same, might not. But when i did test them, my injectors were NOT firing according to this tester. In other words, when i hooked one end to the positive battery, and the other end to the ground that the ecu should be sending the injector to complete the circuit. There is no light going off on the tester, therefore the ecu is not sending any groung to my injectors for some reason.

[Stinky]

The injectors get a constant positive voltage (when the ecu is on) and the ground is pulsed by the ecu. In other words check to make sure constant power at one of the injector leads and then see if the ground is pulsing when you try to turn the motor over.

[craigztoyz]

I am pretty sure he already did test for inj power. The noid lights, are a lil box of 5 lil lights that have a led bulb, and each fits a different injector type. Are the relays all triggering?

If you still have problems, check power and ground at each point from ecu.

Do me a favor. Post up, where you do and don't have power please. and a brief bit on what is working and not. craig

[CrazyTrance]

I am pretty sure he already did test for inj power. The noid lights, are a lil box of 5 lil lights that have a led bulb, and each fits a different injector type. Are the relays all triggering?

If you still have problems, check power and ground at each point from ecu.

Do me a favor. Post up, where you do and don't have power please. and a brief bit on what is working and not. craig

Yes, i checked for power at the injectors, and i have power. So the ecu is just not sending the ground pulse for some reason. Could be my CAS.

We did start checking grounds from each pinnout at the ecu. We found that alot of my grounds are very weak. like upwards of 25 to 30 ohms. So i made some grounding cables and that lowered them a little bit, but i still need to do more. If i sppliced into the harness right before the ecu and grounded all of the black ground wires i can find on the pinnout would that be effective in getting the resistance to zero ohms? or is that what i am NOT suppossed to do.

Ok, so i have constant power to my injectors, constant power to my coil packs, so i have spark. I did eliminate the EGR system, so that might be of some help to you, just made a block-off plate. I'm pretty sure my MAFS is working as it came out of a car i drove home two years ago. One thing i dont think i have hooked up is that temp sensor on the side of the block. Or is that the knock sensor???? Wait a minute. If thats the knock sensor then that is a HUGE problem. No, the knock sensors are on the top of the block right next to the cylinders. So nvm.

But would not having the temp sensor on the side of the block have some sort of effect on this? I'm going to check my CAS by taking it out, and spinning it with the wiring hooked up to it. The injectors should fire then right? If not, its the CAS, the wiring between it and the ecu, or the ecu... maybe i dont have power to the CAS. I'll have to check that out. Would it go through a relay?