VH45 Swap Discussion.

[elwesso]

i have been talking to a fellow member here on NICO and we were having some great emails.. I thought that I would post these emails here for us to discuss on..... Feel free to quote any individual emails and critique!

Quote »Hey this is pmpmstrb from nico, I'm putting the vh45 into my WRX. I have a few questions that I hope you can help me with. What am I going to do about management on this motor. I could understand that if I was staying NA I could jsut get a chip from NICO or JWT, but I want to be able to tune it on the dyno at MSL. Marc says he has a romulator, but I couldn't find any info about there being one for the Q45, I know it can be used on Hondas. i no nothing about Qs so please school me.

Brandon

[/quote]Quote »Brandon



I assume youll be running boost.. if that’s the case, how much boost are you going to run? If your going to want to stay below 450HP (or within the stock injectors) then reprogramming the stock ECU is the way to go….. You can get some romulators that all the other nissan’s use.. I can make you a VH45DET boost map…. Basically it uses the MAF to determine boost and then calculates AF ratios from there.



If your going to be running bigger injectors, I would STILL use factory ECU but you wouldn’t be able to use one of our “one size fits all” ECU. Still, you could fly my ECU reprogrammer out here and pay him good money and still pay less than a good standalone ECU… IMO if you know what your doing, standalones are stupid.. The stock ECU can control everything and its already wired and stuff..





- Wes

[/quote]Quote »Yea I'll be boosting it, but I'm not sure how much I'll be running. I was wanting to be somewhere in the 525whp range. I was told these motors were good for well into the 600s stock. I sthis true? What about upping the fuel pressure? How well would that work if I made the MAF blow through? It would go on the pressure side after the intercooler. How much would you charge me for the boost map? I don't have an ecu yet, is there a year that is better than others? My motor is a 95.



I know I'll have more questions, when I think of them I'll send them your way. I can't wait to get the plate and start fitting it.

Brandon[/quote]Quote »Brandon



Personally I would try and set it up with like 8-10lbs of boost to net you 450HP or so.. See how your engine handles it… Personaly if I were going outside of stock injector HP range id think about a lower compression piston… which escort makes… Ive also heard you can use VQ30DET pistons as well as theyre the same and will net it about a 9:1 CR… Personally id shoot for something lower (around 450 like I said) or go with something like 700 or so (to make the effort of tuning for larger injectors worth it) 370cc injectors can handle 450HP safely. As long as you have a boost map you can run as much boost as the factory injectors will allow.. After you get bigger injectors and some lower comp pistons, you can run as much HP as you want. A guy in Australia has a mildly built motor that has over 1000 HP… tons of boost, tiny bit of cam work (don’t think there was a regrind, just stiffer valve springs), bigger injectors, blah blah blah…..



If you put in lower compression pistons and had a way to cool the engine better you can throw as much boost at it as you want.. Once you get past 700-800-900 HP cooling is going to be an issue as you would no longer be able to use the stock water pump….. you cant spin it faster because its gonna cavitate.



Remember 450WHP in a VH is a lot different than most other motors because its just going to be a torque MONSTER. Basicalyl what I am saying is don’t over complicate stuff.. Get your **** running and then make it go faster…. Don’t try and make a monster out of the box… we know you can run around 10lbs of boost with our boost map.. So that means just install your ****, hook our ECU up and burn a few clutches and many tires…



Theres no need to up the fuel pressure IMO…



The maf blow through is how you want to run… perfect exactly how you described it, nad how I would set it up. As far as the boost map, we can probably get er done for about $150.. Get a 90-93 ECU, theyre easier to do and more versatile.



Let me ask… are you going to run a single or twin turbo? If your running twins id love to copy your manifolds….. J I don’t think a single turbo setup in the Q45 is very feasible due to space.. Youd want to probably tuck 2 midsize turbos under the block, similar to where the Z32s are. Im not sure how itd work in the WRX but in the Q I don’t see an easy way to rig 1 huge turbo instead of 2 medium sized… without being a plumbing nightmare…



In the next 1.5-2 years im looking to make my Q 5 speed and turbo.



- Wes[/quote]Quote »So how does your boost map work? Is it similar to a MAP based computer like the AEM on how it adjusts the fuel? So it automatically adjusts the AF based on ho wmuch boost I am running? That sounds great. Do you have an ecu for me by chance or where I can get one before I start looking? I was going to run twins, but the cost is more than I want to spend. I am not 100% sure on the turbo. I was going to run a GT40R, but I was told it was to small. What are your opinions? I want a ball bearing and preferably without v-band. My last turbo had them and I could never get them to seal. Garret or maybe Precision. Nice thing about Subarus is our motors are wide, so I have plenty of room in the engine bay. Only problem is going to be height so I am going to have to modify the hood and probably put some sort of cowl or something on it.



Will you be able to modify the ecu so it doesn't look for the auto transmission? Once I get the adapter plate I'll be taking pictures every step of the way.

Brandon[/quote]Quote »

Youre right, its just like a MAP based except it uses the MAF reading to determine AF ratio and timing. You can get an ECU from someone off NICO!



You should really try and run twins, I don’t see it being that much more expensive, it’s a slightly simpler design IMO. Id run something like 2 T28s (the ball bearings from the Z32tt)… Something midsize…. Put your MAF on the pressure side. Shouldn’t be terrible for plumbing, probably harder than a single turbo setup IMO. I don’t know how youd plumb together both sides of the exhaust and then try and run one big pressure pipe back up to an intercooler and back up… Basically the TB is 90MM and its easier to plumb 2 45mm pipes up to an intercooler than it is to run 1 90mm.. You may not run a 90mm pressure pipe though…



The ECU isn’t a problem, it doesn’t care if the trans is there or not.. It may throw a CODE but it wont throw a CEL or do anything weird…



About your email about the adapter plate, I hope that youll be able to replicate it cheaper than what you paid from John, because most people that are hardcore into the VH would just get it from John….[/quote]Quote »I got the price quote from John for the adapter plate. It is 404.25GBP shipped which is $745.60 shipped. I don't think that is that bad of a price for the plate and hardware considering I was quoted locally for one at $1300 plus I would have to buy hardware. I'll see what I can do when I get it. Hardest part will be not bolting it up right away.



I really want to run twins, but I don't know. Since I am decreasing how much power I want, are there any other BB turbos that you suggest for 450whp? Here are the reasons I was going to run single.

- Already have a one in/one out intercooler from before

- Less plumbing of oil and water

- Intercooler pipe would have been short and sweet

- I think it would cost less



The ***** like you said and also my concern is the manifold and its crossover. I've been looking at pics of single turbo mustangs to kind of get some sort of idea. If I go twins I'm pretty sure I would have enough room for them to sit on top of the manifolds. Give me some turbo ideas and I'll start running numbers again. They would spool like ****ing crazy.



Also about the transmission and rearend. I am running a z32 transmission. I can use it with my stock rearend right? I believe it is 3.91, but not sure I will have to double check. I plan on changing the rearend sometime. I just want to take small bites and getting the engine in and running is the first.



Here are some various pics of the car if you want to see it.

http://s25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/pmpmstrb/car/



Brandon[/quote]Quote »Brandon



The adapter plate price is very reasonable… I guess worst case scenario is that you have yours and if you cant replicate it cheaper you can just recommend people to John! J



I don’t see how it would cost less to run a single turbo.. Definitely more PITA to cross the 2 exhaust manifolds to a single on V8. The only difference in cost would be buying the additional turbo. T28s would be pretty good, T25s might be a bit of a strain to run 450HP, but can be had cheap. GT35R’s w/ .81 A/R might work good as well. You may have to buy more stuff but you could also sell some of your stuff…



I definitely think twins is the way to go. PLUS you could replicate the manifolds for me… But my selfishness aside, I still think itd be easier to setup, but it might not be cheaper. When your doing a project like this, I would rather go the easy route than the cheap route… Basically you can copy the twin turbo Z’s design but with an extra cylinder. Run a log type manifold hugging the block and have the turbo sitting down in there out of sight. I don’t think a single turbo would work good on the VH from a tuning aspect because it doesn’t have that great of a low end.. On mustangs they generally have a good low end but need help on the top end… not the case with the VH, in fact the opposite is very true. You want that thing to spool up as fast as possible.. IF theyre not as efficient at high speeds you probably wont notice it THAT much…



For the trans and rear end, I don’t know how beefy the stock subie rear is… You can run a Q45 rear diff, thatd probably work good for your setup.. 3.54…



- Wes[/quote]Quote »I was going to do twin gt2871r's, but I would have spent almost $2k on the turbos. I want to go external wastegate, but at this point I'll take what I can get. I don't like the looks of these, but what do you think http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...wItem Or maybe running a Mitsu turbolike the EVO III 16g http://www.slowboyracing.com/shop.php?sid=&cat=195 If I run internal gate for now than I don't have to worry about getting external gates and welding them up. I just want whatever to get me to 450 and get the car running.Brandon[/quote]

[Stinky]

You might want to split this to a separate post. In regards to reprogramming the stock ecu here's a bit of info. I've been looking into this for our project 450sx. http://www.ellisautoworkz.com/cars/450sx.asp

As far as I have heard/read the vh45 ecu (90-93 at least) is very similiar to the z32 ecu. The being the case they should be fairly straight forward to program. Ideally the way to do it is with a romulator taking the place of the stock chip. This will allow realtime tuning of the fuel/ignition maps with a laptop. Also, a program called Nistune is soon to be released that is designed to offer realtime tuning and datalogging on many popular Nissan and Infiniti ecus. I'm helping the guy beta test some parts of it. Anyway, once it's out you will be able to use the Nistune software along with a consult connector and a romulator to do realtime logging and tuning just like any standalone unit. The big deal here is that it will offer maptracing and live editing in the same package which hasnt been available until now. I should be testing this setup in the next week or two when I get my consult cable.

Using this system you should be able to modify the ecu to take larger injectors, a different maf, and change just about anything any that people can find the rom address for. It'll also be great for realtime tuning on steady state dynos.

On that note it would be nice if those people that already have lots of experience with vh45 ecu tuning would share their information. Rom addresses and any tips/tricks would be great.

[riu]

This was a great thread... now can anyone supply a similar comprehensive write up like this for an NA VH45 build up?

[Ezekial]

A single turbo setup is alot cheaper

ie. GT42RS $2000ish2 x GT30R $3000ish

not to mention double the fittings, etc

this is not even nearly equalled out in material cost of the extra long manifold runner. steam pipe material is cheap as chips

[John Dixon]

This was a great thread... now can anyone supply a similar comprehensive write up like this for an NA VH45 build up?

Might do when mine is finished.Will have some parts pictures up on Wednesday night after visit to engine builders.

[pmpmstrb]

So any opinion on running some thing like the Evo III turbo for twins?

http://www.slowboyracing.com/shop.php?sid=&cat=195

[mtcookson]

From what I can find compressor map wise... it would be decent, but I think the Garrett T04E 50 trim is a much more efficient compressor with a higher top end than that Evo turbo.

You can get a T3/T04E 50 trim from http://www.cheapturbo.com for only a bit more than that Evo turbo.

[Ezekial]

first up consider the engine. how much boost you think it will run. realistically. i chose 20psi for my VH45DE

next figure out how much hp you think a VH45DE engine can make on 20psi. realistically! be conservative. I chose 800 flywheel hp. Purely because it is easy for a 2 litre to make 400 flywheel hp on 20psi and so there is no reason why a 4.5 cant make double that and still have 0.5 litres spare in case it falls short

then choose a compressor which is efficient for that hp ... in my example i chose 1 x GT4202RS

then when you put it all together the turbo will come out perfect or slightly too small. which will make for a very quick car

[riu]

Might do when mine is finished.Will have some parts pictures up on Wednesday night after visit to engine builders.

john... you're my hero

[John Dixon]

Pics on other thread in case you missed them