Using the Infinity Q45 throttle body on an N/A 240sx...

[WhiteSilvia]

A friend and I were discussing if this would actually increase performance/mileage in any way. We were discussing creating some type of 'forcing cone adapter' to simulate a vortex like effect for the denser air to flow into the engine.

Has anyone messed with anything like this ever? Any thoughts or ideas would be great. Is it even worth messing with the throttle body on an N/A car? Thanks.

[180fan]

why would you waste that much cash for an engine that couldn't need that much breathing and have that much of a dramatic reduction in intake velocity on what I'd assume to be a relatively stock car let alone an NA tuned one.

[AZhitman]

I can make this pretty simple for ya:

I'm still running the original TB on my KA, and I'm well over 300hp on 14 lbs of boost.

You don't need to change the TB - plus, it won't bolt up cleanly.

[WhiteSilvia]

I can make this pretty simple for ya:

I'm still running the original TB on my KA, and I'm well over 300hp on 14 lbs of boost.

You don't need to change the TB - plus, it won't bolt up cleanly.

Ok, well... Let's make this more clear, since apparently people aren't understanding here.

We don't want to go turbo. We're trying to get as much power out of N/A as possible. One option for us is larger throttle body. Obviously this isn't a MAIN addition, but an optional one we're toying with.

What we're trying to accomplish is similar to what people have done on carburated engines for decades. The 'forcing cone adapter' that we're discussing is an adapter plate, yes, but it's design creates a wind tunnel, or vortex effect with denser air coming in. Thus forcing the dense air to compress on itself while going into the manifold.

It's just a simple idea, and Q45 throttle bodies aren't expensive at all. So we figure it's worth a shot.

[wankelTII]

Not really

You arent going to get any more air into the engine that way.There are things you can do. Just off the top of my head:

Something that people dont seem to get is a great upgrade - a sealed/pressurised ram air box. The duct from the front of he car dosent need to be that large (make it larger than the intake piping), but make the filter element as large as possible to reduce the pressure drop. This sort of thing is fairly simple, but do your hw.

You might pick up 5hp or so and alot of noise from a better flowing exhaust, this is what most people have. A really well designed exhaust manifold and exhaust system with a correctly placed merge collector will make for a sizeable power increase, but this requires either lots money, or lots of time and R&D work/expirementation/know-how and still alot of money. Just as much would be required to make an intake manifold that is actually better than stock.

port and polish - porting can slow air velocity so very little is needed

Having stock intake mani honed/ported/polished, again, the bigger the hole the slower the air moves. Just smooth things out.

cams - moves/affects powerband, but can be a great bolt on upgrade. Would be more beneficial if designed/timed to work with intake and exhaust manifold lengths.

Build the engine, lighter internals, higher compression etc (keeping the combustion chamber, bore, stroke, compression as close to stock as possible is a good idea) For N/A up the compression a small amount but keep combustion chamber as close to same shape as possible. Redesigning the combustion chamber is beyond mostly everyone.

Pretty much everything is going to require tuning (fuel/ignition). I would suggest modifying the stock maps in some way not starting from scratch with stand alone engine management. Piggyback, reflash, etc (GReddy E-manage ultimate!!!) Fuel delivery and pickup is also very important!

You can easily make your car alittle lighter, handle better, stop better, etc. so if you need something to do, just work on those things!

There is acutally alot that can be done with aerodynamics that can make some drastic improvements in many areas of performance, but thats like a whole nother page of typing and im tired, sick, and just took alot of medicine!

[WhiteSilvia]

Not really

You arent going to get any more air into the engine that way.There are things you can do. Just off the top of my head:

Something that people dont seem to get is a great upgrade - a sealed/pressurised ram air box. The duct from the front of he car dosent need to be that large (make it larger than the intake piping), but make the filter element as large as possible to reduce the pressure drop. This sort of thing is fairly simple, but do your hw.

You might pick up 5hp or so and alot of noise from a better flowing exhaust, this is what most people have. A really well designed exhaust manifold and exhaust system with a correctly placed merge collector will make for a sizeable power increase, but this requires either lots money, or lots of time and R&D work/expirementation/know-how and still alot of money. Just as much would be required to make an intake manifold that is actually better than stock.

port and polish - porting can slow air velocity so very little is needed

Having stock intake mani honed/ported/polished, again, the bigger the hole the slower the air moves. Just smooth things out.

cams - moves/affects powerband, but can be a great bolt on upgrade. Would be more beneficial if designed/timed to work with intake and exhaust manifold lengths.

Build the engine, lighter internals, higher compression etc (keeping the combustion chamber, bore, stroke, compression as close to stock as possible is a good idea) For N/A up the compression a small amount but keep combustion chamber as close to same shape as possible. Redesigning the combustion chamber is beyond mostly everyone.

Pretty much everything is going to require tuning (fuel/ignition). I would suggest modifying the stock maps in some way not starting from scratch with stand alone engine management. Piggyback, reflash, etc (GReddy E-manage ultimate!!!) Fuel delivery and pickup is also very important!

You can easily make your car alittle lighter, handle better, stop better, etc. so if you need something to do, just work on those things!

There is acutally alot that can be done with aerodynamics that can make some drastic improvements in many areas of performance, but thats like a whole nother page of typing and im tired, sick, and just took alot of medicine!

Well thanks for the input but we're already well aware of all of this

[AZhitman]

Ok, well... Let's make this more clear, since apparently people aren't understanding here.

Wow. That's pretty condescending. I'll ignore that.

Trust me, I understood your post perfectly, and I explained myself very clearly. You're wasting your time.

We don't want to go turbo. We're trying to get as much power out of N/A as possible. One option for us is larger throttle body. Obviously this isn't a MAIN addition, but an optional one we're toying with.

What we're trying to accomplish is similar to what people have done on carburated engines for decades. The 'forcing cone adapter' that we're discussing is an adapter plate, yes, but it's design creates a wind tunnel, or vortex effect with denser air coming in. Thus forcing the dense air to compress on itself while going into the manifold.

It's just a simple idea, and Q45 throttle bodies aren't expensive at all. So we figure it's worth a shot.

I've been building cars for decades, and that crap didn't work in the 60's - and it don't work now.

The "magic number" for dual-cam KA's without boost is less than 200 hp. The best and brightest have achieved... yep... less than 200hp. The reigning SCCA champ: Less than 200hp.

Vortex effects are a waste of time. The Nissan intake is NOT lacking in that area. In fact, any restrictions are well past the TB.

MOST IMPORTANTLY - You simply CAN NOT "compress" air through the use of a restriction, which a cone is, like it or not. Mechanical means are 100% necessary to compress air.

EVEN IF YOU COULD, any benefits would be nullified by increasing heat (compressed air heats up).

Look up the "Tornado". It's a joke.

If it worked, don't you think Nissan would have used it?

Bottom line: A larger TB is useless for what you're trying to do.

[wankelTII]

I thought my long post might help someone but my words hath fallen in front of deaf eyes.

[rotorimp]

Yes sir--I appreciated your post--I build motors and know what it takes to make more power in na and forced induction. Some people just do not want to here it and that is why vortex generators,electric supercharges and big *** chrome intakes sell so well.

Greg--I am thinking about taking a swing at the over 200hp Ka motor.

By the way WhiteSilvia--I'll custom port you a Q45 Tb and mill an adapter to the KA plenum if you have the $$$$

[1989240sx]

what about a incooler without a tubro would that help out or would it not be any help and have you guys seen sts tubro that go in the back of the car

[karmakaze]

what about a incooler without a tubro would that help out or would it not be any help and have you guys seen sts tubro that go in the back of the car

again, pointless.

and thats a remote turbo setup. again, a waste imo.

[rotorimp]

"what about a intercooler without a turbo would that help out or would it not be any help and have you guys seen sts turbo that go in the back of the car"

An intercooler in a NA car is too much restriction and negates any cooling benefit from denser air.

The remote turbo system is more for V8's with little room in the engine bay. 240's have room for Turbo's---And I would not build one because it is too close to the fuel tank for my liking

[phlip245]

Anybody checked out really fast motorcycles in the last decade? Seems they have figured out how to use RAM air to boost horsepower by a enough that all the fast ones use it .Maybe they're onto something there.In scca sealed(as in one end) air boxes were not allowed as they gave the persons that had the an unfair advantage.Free low boost supercharging,it only works at speed but it's free.