Using a lower performance rated tire OK?

[slipnfall]

Hi folks, This question is about an '04 Accord, but I assume it applies to any vehicle. My girlfriend and I got a price quote for tires at Firestone today, and they wanted almost $145+ a piece for the tires! They are 205/60/R16, V91 rated. They told me that I *could not* use a lower speed rated tire... that the vehicle was designed for this specefic tire, and braking, tread life, and handling would suffer. Is this true?? I mean damn, my girlfriend doesn't autocross the car or anything, it's just a daily driver. What would be the problem with using the proper-sized, lower speed rated tire(say an H-rated)?

Thanks,-Jamie

[chmercer]

tell them to **** off and sell you some cheap tires, H rated is perfectly fine for an accord. i HATE trying to talk to tire stores.

"what car do you have"

"it dosent matter. i want the 17x9 +0"

"what car do you have? i need to know for the computer"

"ferarri f50 with 240sx hubs, sell me the ****ing wheels please"

[elwesso]

H rated tires will be fine on the accord...

[slipnfall]

haha, ok, well I had to ask. Thanks. I was taken back too, but I watched the computer monitor's 'search results', and that speed rating was the *only* one they listed. I guess coorperate Firestone doesn't want the stores to sell a cheaper tire than the factory reccomends.

, my girlfriend will be happy w/that news.

'slip

[GhostDriver]

tell them to **** off and sell you some cheap tires, H rated is perfectly fine for an accord. i HATE trying to talk to tire stores.

"what car do you have"

"it dosent matter. i want the 17x9 +0"

"what car do you have? i need to know for the computer"

"ferarri f50 with 240sx hubs, sell me the ****ing wheels please"

OMG.... Seriously though, tell them to STFU and sell you what you want. If not then go else where.

[Exar-Kun]

She'll also be happy with the 10ft extra stopping distance and reduced cornering ability of the lower speed rated tire I'd bet.

All of you guys need to quit bashing the tire industry guys. EVery day I sat and lsitened to people yelling at me about how they wnated to put a cheap tire on their V6 accord or evne more high end care because they thought the car would "be just fine".

Unfortunately, most laymen don't know jack crap about tires, their construction, how speed ratings work and how it affects the vehicle dynamics of a car.

THe guys at your firestone store (Firestone stores suck, also BTW..limited selections, and are paid heavily for pusings certain items only) are only triyng to keep you in the same class you had on the car OE. This ensures a few things:-the tires are capable of the cars performance elvel, as set by the factoryt-the tires are propperly matched for the car's systems-The tires salesmen( supposing he is less then informed) won't reccoemend something 'wrong' for the vehicle- YOU don't come back after slding/blowing out or otherwise incurring large expnseive problems to SUE them for putting an "impropper" tire on your car.

That being said, if you are aware of what you're doing, and accept the consequences of it, by all means, put whatever tire you want on the car. I used to ahve people sign waivers/initial notes on all invoiced when they reduced speed ratings on a car (esspecially more high-end models like a E-class, etc) for those very reasons.

Now that we're all brought up to speed...

Honda does put an H-rated tire on certain accords, so those should be fine. Just be informed of the effect on the car of the change.

If you really want to save the money, go ahead. I don't endorse nor reccoemend going down in speed rating or load index for a lot of reasons. I reccoemend going to a better tire store to find the tire that's right for you and your car at a better price.

"Seriously though, tell them to STFU and sell you what you want. If not then go else where..."

Tire stores just "STUF"-ing are how they get sued. Given, msot tires stores unfortunately do a crappy job on their own of educating the slaesperson on WHY they should do something..they just tell them "oh sell what the computer says". So I see where you're comming from.

Either way, please don't blindly bash an industry like that, it irks me in a bad, bad way. THat's be like me aysg "I ahte hardware stores! they always tell me to sue grade 8 bolts, but I'm decently sure grade 5 will hold it ok!"

Yes, grade five might, but am I really informed enough to undestand what that downgrade is doing?

-Chet

[slipnfall]

Well Chet I appreciate the explaination. I *do* understand the point of using the proper rating... if Honda puts it on there, it's put on for a reason... not just to boast that they require expensive tires...That being said, I am also taking into account the driver. I will take your initial advice and simply shop elsewhere. We have decided that we can afford a V-rated tire from TireRack, but certainly not Firestone. The only reason we were there inquiring about tires is b/c I had a n alignment scheduled(and only because they were open on Sunday!)

Yes, grade five might, but am I really informed enough to undestand what that downgrade is doing?

Well that is why I asked. To a layman like myself, all I saw was a 'speed' rating. I knew this represented more than just top speed, but I didn't see how a conservative driver would be at *that* much of a disadvantage.

No bashing here, I understand he has a job to do... I'm glad he insisted that I go with that rating, otherwise I wouldn't be here asking, and considering...

[Kenrik]

tell them to **** off and sell you some cheap tires, H rated is perfectly fine for an accord. i HATE trying to talk to tire stores.

"what car do you have"

"it dosent matter. i want the 17x9 +0"

"what car do you have? i need to know for the computer"

"ferarri f50 with 240sx hubs, sell me the ****ing wheels please"

I had this same thing happen to me more then once.. thn I asked the guy what the offsets were and he was like what's an offset? So I was like have a nice day... you're not selling me anyting.

[Exar-Kun]

Glad I could clear some thigns up.

"Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day." Thomas Jefferson

There'll be a nice article on tire fundamentals when I get done compiling and illustrating it...

Hopefully it'll help everyone understand things a bit more in-depth.

Also, going from V to H is much less of a performance downgrade than say a V or Z to a T(as many poeple do, be ause of the draw of 70k miles warranty or other stuff..) :/

-Chet

[blake@tirerack]

tell them to **** off and sell you some cheap tires, H rated is perfectly fine for an accord. i HATE trying to talk to tire stores.

"what car do you have"

"it dosent matter. i want the 17x9 +0"

"what car do you have? i need to know for the computer"

"ferarri f50 with 240sx hubs, sell me the ****ing wheels please"

UGGG..........

[chmercer]

UGGG..........

sorry im not content with 17x7 +35 for every application ever made.

[C-Kwik]

Go to tirerack.com and search for your tire size. Of the 37 available matches in that size, the most expensive one is cheaper than the tire you were quoted for. There are a couple that are V rated that are below $100 and they have a higher load index.

[slipnfall]

See above.

We have decided that we can afford a V-rated tire from TireRack, but certainly not Firestone.

[C-Kwik]

See above.

Ahh. I didn't see that. I was trying to skim through the post before I left work.

[InsanityInc]

You're making the mistake of thinking that a high speed rating makes the whole tire higher performance. That's not really true.

Plus, 145/tire for an accord, even a V rated tire is absolutely nuts. Falken 502/512s are V rated and cost anywhere from 60-80/tire. They also have a load index of 94 if I recall.

[Exar-Kun]

You're making the mistake of thinking that a high speed rating makes the whole tire higher performance. That's not really true.

?

Uhm, considering a speed rating can reflect, to some degree, the internal construction and performance capability of a tire when isn't this true?

Take for example a V rated versus T rated tires. THe T rated tire is not built internally or tread-compound wise, well enough to perform uder high speed loaded conditions. Things such as belt caps, bead filler, bead construction and strenght, and tread compound and desgn (ability to absorb the higher heat generated) all affect this.

Most of these factors are directly related to cornering (IE high performance) of a given tire. Ability to maintain its shape (contact patch) during hard cornering is a function of the items above (mainly having the cap plies, and good bead construction and filler materials..sidewall inserts, etc), large ammounts of heat are generated during hard cornering (again see above), all of which relate directly tyo how a tire recieves a speed rating.

Given it's not the best method for choosing a tire, but >95% of the time, a higher speed rating will denote a tire will perform better at the "performance" criteria than a lower speed rated tire in its class (IE, touring, all season, MP, UHOP, summer UHP, etc).

Obviously, a V rated snow tire won't perform as well in the dry as a V rated UHP summer tire, but that's because of the tires intended purpose.....but I digress...

Something to chew on.

-Chet

[slipnfall]

I'm curious what sacrifices a tire makes to be considered all season? I need tires for my 240, and my girlfriend too. The thing is we will only see light snow in the winter months, so maybe an all-season tire would be a little overkill? Is it mainly the compound plyability at temperatures(and obviously tread design I imagine) that designate a tire all-season?

Any suggestions for my 240? I'd like to stick to the 205/60(15). Decent wet handling, light snow, but good in the heat also. Maybe these three features can't be combined?

[Exar-Kun]

"Decent wet handling, light snow, but good in the heat also. Maybe these three features can't be combined?"

not cheaply.

There's a lot of factors involved in how a tire does at given conditions, they're all trade offs:

-Dry grip (usually at higher temps...) (requires relatively low void ratio, compounds capable of dealing with the higher heat generated during hard cornering like SBR/Carbon black, larger treadblocks to avoid distortion, and sticky compounds)

-Wet grip (requires relatively high void ratio, requires use of compounds with water-dispersing capabilities and grip at lower temperatues like silica)

-Noise (requires more siping, compounds and tread designes to be broken up to not create harmonics....leading to smaller treadblocks, typically)

-Longevity (requires use of 'harder' tread compounds)

-Ride comfort (stiff ther tire/better turn in typically sacrafices ride quality, etc)

-weather use (All-seasons require siping, etc...winter tires require compounds used in low temps, allong with a lit of sipes to gain traction in slush, etc)

-Cost (duh. lower costs tires may not have the quality control, assembly techniques, materials or balance of attributes you're needing).

You can kind of see how it all pulls at each other, with the largest pull being cost. Sure, you can make a wonderfully grippy, great wet and dry grip, low noise tire...but it's not going to be cheap, or last exceptionally long, or be capable of all-season duties (See the Michelin PS2, ADVAN D07).

Likewise, you can get a nice all-season performance touring tire, with low noise, good treadwear and nice ride comfort but it's not going to girp as well as the higher performance tires (see the Michelin MXM4, Yokohama AVS DB S2, etc)

THis is one of the primary reasons for my "attention" sticky being in existance.

To be able to reccomend a tre, properrly for the car, driver and duties it will see is tough, and made tougher by irrational requests ( "I want a high-grip, quiet tire for 50 dollars! And it better get over 40,000 miles or I'll awnt a refund!").

Unfortunately all-seaons is a misnomer. most of these tires are made with concesions to dry grip to make sure they cna deal with light snow. THis does not mean they can't grip well in the wet and dry though.

Some quick reccomendations are the Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S, while rather expensive it does good all-season duty, boasts good wet and dry handling, as well as good wear characteristics. Unfortunately it also boasts a price tag to go with it.

Something else worth considering is the Yokohama H4/V4s or AVS DB S2 (the more grippy of the pair).

-Chet