US Should Stop Supporting Israel

[Armelius]

To begin, I wouldn't be posting anything for quite a while if Israel hadn't started their latest offensive attacks on the Gaza Strip directed at Hamas.

Second, I have no love for Hamas or Palestine or Moslems or any other religious entities to include the Vatican.

Third Israel is a religious state and should not be getting US support at all.

Obviously the Jewish Agency and the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee are zionist organizations that funded Nazi Germany and Communist Russia to get people relocated to Palestine/Israel in order to save them, which in my opinion is no different than funding terrorism. Yet, I also feel that since they are not part of the government they should be free to send money or food anywhere they want.

9/11 wouldn't have happened if the US wasn't an ardent supporter of Israel.

It is a cowardly thing Isreal is doing in the Gaza Strip attacking an unseen enemy with aircraft and millions worth of military equipment given to them by the US. If they want to stop Hamas they should go in with their army or ground forces and do a complete search of the area and then leave.

I do not believe we should be sending aid to a group that would do the killing for us. Even if you believe they should be getting military aid they should be accountable for using it.

I end with a quote from Bertrand Russell:

The tragedy of the people of Palestine is that their country was “given” by a foreign power to another people for the creation of a new state. The result was that many hundreds of thousands of innocent people were made permanently homeless. With every new conflict their numbers increased. How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of wanton cruelty? It is abundantly clear that the refugees have every right to the homeland from which they were driven, and the denial of this right is at the heart of the continuing conflict. No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their own country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate? A permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East. We are frequently told that we must sympathise with Israel because of the suffering of the Jews in Europe at the hands of the Nazis. [...] What Israel is doing today cannot be condoned, and to invoke the horrors of the past to justify those of the present is gross hypocrisy.

—Bertrand Russell, 31 January 1970

[480sx]

I end with a quote from Bertrand Russell:

The tragedy of the people of Palestine is that their country was “given” by a foreign power to another people for the creation of a new state. The result was that many hundreds of thousands of innocent people were made permanently homeless. With every new conflict their numbers increased. How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of wanton cruelty? It is abundantly clear that the refugees have every right to the homeland from which they were driven, and the denial of this right is at the heart of the continuing conflict. No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their own country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate? A permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East. We are frequently told that we must sympathise with Israel because of the suffering of the Jews in Europe at the hands of the Nazis. [...] What Israel is doing today cannot be condoned, and to invoke the horrors of the past to justify those of the present is gross hypocrisy.

—Bertrand Russell, 31 January 1970

Im just gona say you began with a quote from Bertrand Russell. I think its better for everyone that way.

Its about time for me to do some reading on this whole mess. Anyone got some good links? Im just gona wiki + google for a while, but if anyone has any links to a crash course pertaining to all things Israel/Palestine toss them up. An unbiased in depth analytical writeup would be a nice find.

[Armelius]

Sorry I wish I could help you. I might suggest reading Israeli newspapers or reporting because they tend to have more information about what is going on over there than what is printed in the US. Whatever the outcome I do hope they can live in peace with their neighbors. Part of me says what is done is done yet another part thinks there is something much more sinister going on over there. If I was living there I certainly would take sides depending on what side I was born on yet I live here and think if we are going to fund them then they have to be accountable or else the military materiel funding would have to stop.

[Eikon]

Obviously the Jewish Agency and the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee are zionist organizations that funded Nazi Germany and Communist Russia to get people relocated to Palestine/Israel in order to save them, which in my opinion is no different than funding terrorism.

That is the most rediculous statement I've ever heard. You mean to tell me that Jews funded Nazi's to kill 6 million Jews just to gain public sentiment to get them relocated back to their homeland? Completely retarded!

Third Israel is a religious state and should not be getting US support at all.

So are all the Muslim countries in the middle east. So is Utah. So are numerous other countries in the world. Many of which receive foreign aid from the United States.

Now I will agree that the 3 Billion that we give to Israel each year in Military Aid could be better spent here in the US on things like education, infrastructure, tax breaks for small business, etc...

9/11 wouldn't have happened if the US wasn't an ardent supporter of Israel.

That's a difficult prediction to back up. But I can see how the extremists in the region derive much of their hate for us due to our support of the Jews in that area.

It is a cowardly thing Isreal is doing in the Gaza Strip attacking an unseen enemy with aircraft and millions worth of military equipment given to them by the US. If they want to stop Hamas they should go in with their army or ground forces and do a complete search of the area and then leave.

I disagree completely. Last report I head was 400 killed and only 60 of them were innocent civilians. Now that's a terrible thing to have killed 60 innocents... but so far the targeted attacks have been incredibly succesful. Terrorists are very hard to kill because they use innocent civilians as shields.

You think the Palestinian people would rather have the whole Israeli army march in on foot and start turning over tables and opening every closet in the country to find the terrorists?

What they are doing is impressive right now. They have been able to pinpoint weapons caches, terrorlst leaders homes, training facilities, etc.. and have been able to pinpoint the attacks on those small locations.

If only the US had that intelligence to hunt down the Taliban and Bin Ladin instead of having to send all our troops into the desert to search for them.

I end with a quote from Bertrand Russell:

The tragedy of the people of Palestine is that their country was “given” by a foreign power to another people for the creation of a new state. The result was that many hundreds of thousands of innocent people were made permanently homeless. With every new conflict their numbers increased. How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of wanton cruelty? It is abundantly clear that the refugees have every right to the homeland from which they were driven, and the denial of this right is at the heart of the continuing conflict. No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their own country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate? A permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East. We are frequently told that we must sympathise with Israel because of the suffering of the Jews in Europe at the hands of the Nazis. [...] What Israel is doing today cannot be condoned, and to invoke the horrors of the past to justify those of the present is gross hypocrisy.

—Bertrand Russell, 31 January 1970

From Wikipedia - "On 31 January 1970, Russell issued a statement which condemned Israeli aggression in the Middle East and called for Israeli withdrawal from territory occupied in 1967."

From that I gather Russell was referring to the Palestinians made homeless after the 6 day war in 1967 in which Israel took control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.

Today every one of those regions has been given back to the Palestinians just as Russell suggested should happen.

What does Israel get in response to those concessions... Rockets and Missiles lobbed from Gaza into schools and houses in nearby Jewish settlements. Hamas and other terrorlst organizations continue to be terrorists. So Israel fights to reduce the threat from Hamas.

[HashiriyaS14]

Israel should be free to fight it's own battles, but I agree that US aid needs to halt or decrease.

Most notably, they only have nukes because we gave them nukes back during the Six Days War. We need to demand the bombs back and also demand total nuclear disarmament. This would remove the incentive/excuse other mideastern nations have to pursue nuclear arms and would make our negotiation position against Iran MUCH stronger.

[Eikon]

Israel should be free to fight it's own battles, but I agree that US aid needs to halt or decrease.

Most notably, they only have nukes because we gave them nukes back during the Six Days War. We need to demand the bombs back and also demand total nuclear disarmament. This would remove the incentive/excuse other mideastern nations have to pursue nuclear arms and would make our negotiation position against Iran MUCH stronger.

I agree! The whole region would be much better if none of those countries had nukes!

But good luck getting Israel to give them back if they know that Iran and other countries in the area may be close or already have them as well.

Heck, just a US call for Israel's dissarmament of nukes would probably be a good idea... even though it's not likely to happen.

[OriginalWheelman]

Israel should be free to fight it's own battles, but I agree that US aid needs to halt or decrease.

Most notably, they only have nukes because we gave them nukes back during the Six Days War. We need to demand the bombs back and also demand total nuclear disarmament. This would remove the incentive/excuse other mideastern nations have to pursue nuclear arms and would make our negotiation position against Iran MUCH stronger.

Wrong. Israel had a Nuclear program of their own. This is why they refused to sign the NNPT.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Most notably, they only have nukes because we gave them nukes back during the Six Days War. We need to demand the bombs back and also demand total nuclear disarmament. This would remove the incentive/excuse other mideastern nations have to pursue nuclear arms and would make our negotiation position against Iran MUCH stronger.

I didn't peg you for a conspiracy theorist...

[Cold_Zero]

Let me state that I believe that the US should support Israel because they have been our ally during the cold war. I do not believe that we should support Israel due to some Christian Dispensational false Doctrine. And as allies and friends, the US should be more insistent to call Israel on to the carpet, just as all friends do, when they step out of line.

Now, I can only imagine living in a neighborhood where I am the only one of my race, religion, ethnicity (insert what you will). Where all the neighbors call for you and your family's death and destruction. They want to burn down your house and constantly harass you and your family by shooting into your house. All the while the people from the Suburbs far far away poo poo you for arming yourself and leveraging what you have in your favor to defend yourself.

Let us remember, it was the UN that sponsored the vote of all nations to authorize the Jewish State in Palestine. It was the Palestinians in the 1970's that attempted to overthrow King Hussein of Jordan. It wasn't until the IAF flew over the Palestinians low and slow did the Palestinians give up any attempt of trying to overthrow the sovereign Monarch of Jordan. Look, we can go back and forth and compare transgressions between the Palestinians and the Israelis. The thing to remember in this region that no one is innocent and everyone has a hand in the fault. Sure it is a let down that a group of people who were persecuted and exterminated have been know from time to time to do some pretty down right awful things.

I am sure this is going to come as a very unpopular response in this forum where it is chic to beat up anything religious, anything Israeli and definitely anything that could be construed as 'right wing.' Like my buddy Nate, who would wear his 'Friends of the IDF' T-shirt (written in Hebrew) in Ann Arbor Michigan in front of little Arab kid, I really don't care. Nate would just smile and say, 'how are you today?'

And as I have said before, "At least Israel is not bombing the **** out of Southern Lebanon!"bud

[hannibal]

This Israel/Palestinian conflict has not gotten the attention it deserves.

On one hand, I understand the 'revenge' factor perpetuated by groups like Hamas. They correctly believe that have been slighted by the world community and the UN. They show this by launching simple rockets and suicide attacks on Israel. Someone mentioned that they now buy these weapons on the world market from nations like Iran and Russia(?). But isnt that the same as the US providing our superior technology to Israel?

From Israel's perspective, they now own the land (perhaps occupy is a better word). They also have the right to protect themselves and their borders. But is using billion dollar fighter jets and tanks to attack Gaza a legitimate response? That is very hard for me to condone.

Jimmy Carter seems to have made the most progress since the creation of Israel. But it seems like everytime a step is taken forward, the situation slides back two steps.

To say 9/11 wouldnt have happened if the US didnt support Israel so strongly is a legitimate point. No one can say its absolutely true, but it is in fact a valid argument. I was very upset with media reports following 9/11 that said bin Laden and his group attacked us because they hated our way of life. They were jealous of our wealth and prominence in the world.

This is a complete lie. I dont know where it came from or what was to be accomplsihed by spreading such a rediculous lie, but it is absolutely false. Nothing can be corrected or solved if we dont understand why al Qaeda wants to cause us harm. Bin Laden has stated that he hates the US because we support Israel at the expense of Arabs in the region.

Is the sole solution to launch a global assault on groups that dislike the US? To find and kill everyone affiliated with al Qaeda? Absolutely not IMO. It is quite impossible (and vengeful) to kill all of our enemies. I believe tactics like this actually create advesaries against us. Especially with policies like the invasion of Iraq. We created a greater enemy in Iraq than Saddam IMO. Yes, we brought them 'freedom', but is that our job? Who are we to GIVE freedom to another nation? Have we forgotten where we were less than 50 yrs ago? Imagine how we would have responded if Russia invaded our country to bring us freedom.

I am quite sure that the US gave Israel nukes. I have no concrete info to back this up, but I do know Israel is our closest ally. Or more correctly said, we are Israel's closet ally. We give them DIRECT access to our intelligence. We give (sell?) them our technology laden weapons of war. I also believe Israel is the single largest recipient of US foreign aid.

Solutions??? I have no clue. But something must happen or these outbreaks of violence will occur constantly. Again, I am far from a scholar on Israel/Arab issues. My post is based on info Ive gather from various sources...

[Armelius]

That is the most rediculous statement I've ever heard. You mean to tell me that Jews funded Nazi's to kill 6 million Jews just to gain public sentiment to get them relocated back to their homeland? Completely retarded!So are all the Muslim countries in the middle east. So is Utah. So are numerous other countries in the world. Many of which receive foreign aid from the United States. Now I will agree that the 3 Billion that we give to Israel each year in Military Aid could be better spent here in the US on things like education, infrastructure, tax breaks for small business, etc... That's a difficult prediction to back up. But I can see how the extremists in the region derive much of their hate for us due to our support of the Jews in that area. I disagree completely. Last report I head was 400 killed and only 60 of them were innocent civilians. Now that's a terrible thing to have killed 60 innocents... but so far the targeted attacks have been incredibly succesful. Terrorists are very hard to kill because they use innocent civilians as shields.

You think the Palestinian people would rather have the whole Israeli army march in on foot and start turning over tables and opening every closet in the country to find the terrorists?

What they are doing is impressive right now. They have been able to pinpoint weapons caches, terrorlst leaders homes, training facilities, etc.. and have been able to pinpoint the attacks on those small locations.

If only the US had that intelligence to hunt down the Taliban and Bin Ladin instead of having to send all our troops into the desert to search for them.

From Wikipedia - "On 31 January 1970, Russell issued a statement which condemned Israeli aggression in the Middle East and called for Israeli withdrawal from territory occupied in 1967."

From that I gather Russell was referring to the Palestinians made homeless after the 6 day war in 1967 in which Israel took control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.

Today every one of those regions has been given back to the Palestinians just as Russell suggested should happen.

What does Israel get in response to those concessions... Rockets and Missiles lobbed from Gaza into schools and houses in nearby Jewish settlements. Hamas and other terrorlst organizations continue to be terrorists. So Israel fights to reduce the threat from Hamas.

I am so sorry my friend for I will not give a history lesson in how corporations work or how they are dysfunctional. One can only look at the present for that.

I am also not going to buy into a version of history that says colonialism is dead and then later creates a whole new state that hasn't been around for over 400 years.

I will concede that Hamas is a violent organization and it would be better to put up a fight than to give in or make them seem like they are winning. It is not in the best interests of an Israeli for them to use indiscriminate tactics on an unseen foe. Easily this could be compared to the British versus the colonial army in the 1700's.

It is impossible for me to wish for peace. It either happens or it doesn't but my main contention is that I do not want to supply the bullets or bombs for someone else to do the killing. Just makes me feel very guilty.

Even if it's in our best interests I do not believe in supporting Egypt or Israel if they are primarily religious states. It does bother me that every presidential candidate has to swear some sort of allegiance to the state of Israel in order to be elected or not condemned by the press.

[Eikon]

corporations and dysfunciton? What are you talking about?

History lessons??? Let me give you (and everyone else reading this thread) a history lesson.

For some silly reason people seem to have the opinion that the Jews were just throwing darts at a map and happened upon the area between the Jordan river and the Med. Sea and decided to lobby for that to be there new nation. If it were so completely random, perhaps I could buy into the theory that they are unfairly occupying that region.

But, there is a little more to the history lesson than that. The Jewish people have a repetitive history of being enslaved and taken away from Israel, then regaining their homeland and rebuilding, only to have it happen again.

-According to the Bible the Jews descended from Abraham and settled the area around 1800 BC. -Around 925 the Jews had a civil war and divided into two nations... Northern part was Israel and the Southern was Judah. -In 722 BC the Assyrians conquered and enslaved Isreal. -In 597 BC the Babylonians conquered and enslaved Judah. -In 539 the Persians rolled through and destroyed Assyria and Babylon. This freed the Jews to return to their homeland and rebuild. -In 333 the Greeks took over the area. -In 63 BC the Romans took over the area. -In 330 the Byzantines took over the area. -In 638 the Muslims took over the area. -From 1100 to 1200 was a time of constant turmoil called the Crusades. -1244 to 1517 saw the region fought over by the Mamluks and the Ottomans. -from 1517 to 1917 the Ottomans controlled the region.

During the entirety of the history listed above, the Jews inhabited the region. Many were enslaved and removed forcefully. Many left the area on their own. The spread of the Jewish people is called Diaspora.

In the late 1880's a large number of Jewish people from the rest of the world began to return to rejoin the existing population of Jews in the "homeland".

In WW1 Turkey joined Germany and was defeated. Britain and France divided the Turkish Empire and Britain was given control of the area in question. Because the area had been in constant control by invaders from various areas since the Jewish nations of Israel and Judah, the British looked favorably on the Jews in the area and began to consider the rebirth of Israel.

Since the area was occupied by a mix of Arabs and Jews, the British divided the territory into two regions. The Western 25% called Palestine and the Eastern 75% called Trans-Jordan. The Arab portion was renamed Jordan in 1946.

In the Western portion of the region (now called Palestine), the Arabs refused to move to the Arab Eastern area and refused to live peacefully with the Jews in the Jewish Western area. So they fought each other.

Finally in 1947, the British got sick of the conflicts and turned the region over to the United Nations. UN Plan 181 once again partitioned the area into a Jewish half and an Arab half. Despite being limited to 1/2 of 1/4 of the initial "homeland" the Jews agreed to the plan. The Arabs refused once again and continued to fight.

In 1948 the Jews in Palestine created their own nation called Israel.

On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. After more than a year of fighting the Israeli's survived the war and took back the area that the UN suggested in Plan 181. They did however allow the Arabs to live in the West Bank and Gaza rather than being displaced from the region.

In 2004 the Jews completely gave back the West Bank and Gaza.

Now in 2008/2009 Israel is fighting against Hamas in order to protect their safety from terrorists.

For more in-depth history see these two sites - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine and http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

The point of this history is to remind everyone that the Jews have been in the area for thousands of years. The Muslim Arabs settled in the area 400 years ago. They should have the right to live peacefully in the region!!!! But they should not have the right to claim that the land belongs to them alone. Nobody should think that the Jews simply picked a region at random and decided to take it over.

[Armelius]

Just by that history lesson alone with wikipedia and the bible as sources I can predict that Los Angeles and New York City will one day be called Los Israel and New Israel being that jews historically had settled there at one time or another.

[Eikon]

Just by that history lesson alone with wikipedia and the bible as sources I can predict that Los Angeles and New York City will one day be called Los Israel and New Israel being that jews historically had settled there at one time or another.

Did you bother to read the post? It appears not. Your jab about LA and NY is exactly the opposite of the entirety of what I was pointing out.

So you think that the Bible cannot be used as a historical document? Nowhere did I bring up anything to do with religious beliefs in the Bible. It is however a solid historical document in which the major events diagramming the history of the Jewish people have been cross-referenced with other historical evidence and found to be true.

[Cold_Zero]

The Bible has gone through more Historical Criticism than say, Cesar's 'Gallic War.' So if you can't use the Bible as an historical source, we can't use much of Ancient Literature either.

The rest of this stuff about Corporations and Egypt/Israel is just crazy talk. Not sure where this thread is going. I can't wait for Helio to get back home to help us get back on track.bud

[Eikon]

Looks like Israel started rolling tanks into Gaza today. I sure hope they can keep the damage and deaths to Hamas terrorists only.

[Armelius]

Did you bother to read the post? It appears not. Your jab about LA and NY is exactly the opposite of the entirety of what I was pointing out.

So you think that the Bible cannot be used as a historical document? Nowhere did I bring up anything to do with religious beliefs in the Bible. It is however a solid historical document in which the major events diagramming the history of the Jewish people have been cross-referenced with other historical evidence and found to be true.

My good friend, I have read your post. And I am not so sure if my post was the exact opposite of what you were pointing out.

Bible as a historical document? Please tell me if this was so great a book why isn't it taught in public schools 1-12? The National Enquirer at least had pictures.

If the people of the old testament were so great why were they defeated by their neighbors? Why was a splinter group ultimately became so much more popular and many of the rituals and superstitions dropped by these new followers?

And then there is the people of the third book who at least can point to someone who did live at the time of the writing of their book.

The biggest problem with having one of these old books as your religious law to be enforce by present day soldiers is nothing but slavery of the mind. Only a free thinker is able to attack the superstition and lack of scientific thinking in these books and only a slave master is able to prosecute one who would cast doubts on these "great" books.

In my opinion I am glad Israel has finally used their troops to do less indiscriminate killing. It may not solve all their problems over there but at least this isn't some David vs Goliath (a myth) battle where we at least can see some sort of accountability for each shot fired.

[Bwana]

My good friend, I have read your post. And I am not so sure if my post was the exact opposite of what you were pointing out.

Bible as a historical document? Please tell me if this was so great a book why isn't it taught in public schools 1-12? The National Enquirer at least had pictures.

If the people of the old testament were so great why were they defeated by their neighbors? Why was a splinter group ultimately became so much more popular and many of the rituals and superstitions dropped by these new followers?

And then there is the people of the third book who at least can point to someone who did live at the time of the writing of their book.

The biggest problem with having one of these old books as your religious law to be enforce by present day soldiers is nothing but slavery of the mind. Only a free thinker is able to attack the superstition and lack of scientific thinking in these books and only a slave master is able to prosecute one who would cast doubts on these "great" books.

In my opinion I am glad Israel has finally used their troops to do less indiscriminate killing. It may not solve all their problems over there but at least this isn't some David vs Goliath (a myth) battle where we at least can see some sort of accountability for each shot fired.

Congratulations!!! Your post wins my "drivel of the week" award!

Seth and Bud have both addressed your points with excellent clarity and thoroughness. It is readily evident that you have no interest in debating the issue, only presenting and re-presenting your personal dogma. There is obviously no communication of ideas going on here...

[Armelius]

Congratulations!!! Your post wins my "drivel of the week" award!

Seth and Bud have both addressed your points with excellent clarity and thoroughness. It is readily evident that you have no interest in debating the issue, only presenting and re-presenting your personal dogma. There is obviously no communication of ideas going on here...

Israel is a religious state founded on a cultural belief. Vatican isn't any different. We shouldn't be supporting religious states. So are we on agreement that they shouldn't be supported? That is my main point.

[480sx]

Seth and Bud have both addressed your points with excellent clarity and thoroughness.

As i did when i first started dealing with this nut. He really is a waste of time. Seriously, just ignore this guy. It would be really nice to never see that name posting in the politics section again. This thread actually started going in a decent direction, but every time that fool posts its just more mind boggling garbage that derails any thought provoking conversation other than reasons to not smoke pounds of crack.

It is readily evident that you have no interest in debating the issue, only presenting and re-presenting your personal dogma. There is obviously no communication of ideas going on here...

Exactly.

AR- Maybe you should try to get points across by only quoting famous people. NOT infamous crazy loons(your not infamous), just famous people. The Bertrand Russell quote was nice. For the nico politics forum, you should have a special keyboard that only has a Ctrl key, a C key, and a V key. Hell ill even let you have a space bar key because i dont think you can get yourself into any trouble with it.

[Armelius]

As i did when i first started dealing with this nut. He really is a waste of time. Seriously, just ignore this guy. It would be really nice to never see that name posting in the politics section again. This thread actually started going in a decent direction, but every time that fool posts its just more mind boggling garbage that derails any thought provoking conversation other than reasons to not smoke pounds of crack.

Exactly.

AR- Maybe you should try to get points across by only quoting famous people. NOT infamous crazy loons(your not infamous), just famous people. The Bertrand Russell quote was nice. For the nico politics forum, you should have a special keyboard that only has a Ctrl key, a C key, and a V key. Hell ill even let you have a space bar key because i dont think you can get yourself into any trouble with it.

Living for God was tried in New England. A government was formed in accordance with the Old Testament. The laws, for the most part, were petty and absurd, the penalties cruel and bloody to the last degree. Religious liberty was regarded as a crime, as an insult to God. Persons differing in belief from those in power, were persecuted, whipped, maimed and exiled. People supposed to be in league with the devil were imprisoned or killed. A theological government was established, ministers were the agents of God, they dictated the laws and fixed the penalties. Everything was under the supervision of the clergy. They had no pity, no mercy. With all their hearts they hated the natural. They promised happiness in another world, and did all they could to destroy the pleasures of this.

Their greatest consolation, their purest Joy was found in their belief that all who failed to obey their words, to wear their yoke, would suffer infinite torture in the eternal dungeons of hell.

Robert Green Ingersoll - “Which Way” (1884)

Happy?

[Eikon]

This thread is locked because the conversation is no longer about the US supporting Israel... We've degraded into a religious conversation which is a topic that is not allowed on NICO.

To continue discussing Israel, either join another thread in progress or start a new one.