Unions...Love 'em or Hate 'em

[7speed]

[rant]

Now I know that this thread has the potential to blow up, so before you post, stop and think, and don't get too hostile if someone feels differently than you about the subject.

Personally, I think that unions have their place (I used to be a Teamster), but sometimes they either have too much power, or not enough. In Canada, we're experiencing an odd instance of both.

CNR (Canadian National Railway) workers are on strike. I don't know why (I could imagine a couple things if their situation was the same as mine was when I worked for an international shipping company), and the corporate side of things are saying it's an illegal strike.

In one report I was reading, the workers state that the strike was put in place in order to get to the negotiating table with managment (which in my experience is the only time managment even realize that there are people working for them), but in some areas of Canada, workers have gone back to work anyway because the strike is having no effect on negotiations (I could see why, if the managment thinks the strike is illegal).

Later in the same report it mentioned that there were somewhere on the order of 70 ships in Vancouver harbour that can't unload because they don't have rail cars on which to put their shipment, and the supply chains for hundreds of international companies are crippled as a result.

Now at this point, you're probably asking yourself: Why do I care? Why is this topic in this forum? or other rational questions. I can't answer the first, but to the second question, here's my story:

I called my salesman yesterday, and my car has arrived in town, but because of the labour strike, they can't get my car out of the rail yard.

So now I'll give you a topic:

Labour unions. Do they help our current society, or are they merely an institution left over from an economic structure of days gone by? If you think they belong why? If you think they need to go, then how do we prevent abuse of employees, and at the same time protect the company from going under (like I think GM, Ford, and Chrysler will because of agreements to their unions).

[/rant] Now discuss.

[Wings]

I agree it depends on the situation. I am a shop steward for AFSCME Local 3911 New Castle County Paramedics. We need to be unionized and I"ll leave it at that.

Some unions do work over the system and are no longer serving their initial purpose.

[Robi]

Are you waiting for a Versa? ... It sounds like you are waiting for a Korean or Japanese car. Unions are necessary as corporations would continue to screw the workers ... it is repeated all down history lane. When there are masive lay-offs the stocks go up and also the pension funds of the very workers who are fired improves ... strange how that happens eh.

[sambot]

Gee, when I was waiting for my V, I was told 2 months ago that the problem was a port strike. Hmmm. I can certainly feel your frustration about having your new car so near, yet, so unavailable.

As for unions, well, there's a time and a place for everything. Unions began as a way to protect workers from employers, and yes, some unions took this to illogical extremes. I'm not familiar with all the issues that CN has, but the fall-out does, unfortunately lands on the rest of us.

Would your dealership do a swap with a dealership that has the specific car you want, or are you stuck still waiting and waiting and waiting?

[TweeKeer]

Gee, when I was waiting for my V, I was told 2 months ago that the problem was a port strike. Hmmm. I can certainly feel your frustration about having your new car so near, yet, so unavailable.

As for unions, well, there's a time and a place for everything. Unions began as a way to protect workers from employers, and yes, some unions took this to illogical extremes. I'm not familiar with all the issues that CN has, but the fall-out does, unfortunately lands on the rest of us.

Would your dealership do a swap with a dealership that has the specific car you want, or are you stuck still waiting and waiting and waiting?

At the end of the 2006 calendar year there was a port strike in Vancouver, but I don't think it affected any of hte Nissan shipments.

If he's waiting for a Versa, it comes up from Mexica, via rail, so once it gets to Canada it's on CNR, being in a compound until via rail releases it.

[motoguy128]

Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai all have auto plants in the US WITHOUT unions. The plants are regularly among the highest in productivity and initial quality. The pay is comparable to the UAW, but owrkers are held ot a higher level of accountability and can actually get fired for poor work performance.

We have unions at the chemical factory I work at. I doesn't allow us to place the most qualified perople in hte best positions because of senority, we have much higher accident rates, and our electrical maintenance staff has several individuals that I wouldn't trust replacing a light switch more or less trouble shooting 1/2 million$ pieice of equipment.

We have a non-union facility that has dramatically lower accident rates, lower operating costs and overall a better atmosphere, and the pay is almost identical.

[XterraVersa]

Hate them.

They do not allow the forces of the free market & competition weed out poor performing lazy workers. The outstanding worker performance gets averaged with the poor performer when a contract is being negotiated.

Without the union, the outstanding performers get rich, & the poor performers are looking for another job.

Unions also make it harder to eliminate the poor performers.

[proxim2020]

I know I will eventually be railed for this but

[girly]

Hey 7Speed, I'm in the same boat as you. My car is stuck on a rail car somewhere too. As luck would have it, the strike began the day after I placed my order for a Black SL with CVT. I was originally told 2 weeks but now they're saying they have no idea.

As far as unions go, I currently have a union job, but I know that I would be better off if it was a private job. (I'm in medical imaging)

[DreamU]

I was in the work force in both Canada and the US for over 30 years and was never in a union so I have no direct experience. As a consumer though, I've always felt there was something inherently wrong with breaking a promise. To wit: I agree to deliver your car, no wait, I'm going on strike!

People have the right to unionize; I am not suggesting otherwise. But if they want to strike then there should be fair notice given to all consumers such that they have time to make alternate plans. I am not in the transportation industry but maybe 3 months strike notice would be sufficient time such that consumers could negotiate other arrangements. For example, if Air Canada says they are going on strike at the end of May I am not going to buy a ticket for June, hence, no broken commitment.

This argument is based entirely on integrity, i.e. keeping one's word. So, the central question becomes "whose integrity?". Management or the workers? My attitude is: it must be one holistic integrity. In other words, if the company makes a commitment everyone honors it. This cuts both way, I would like to see the workers honor corporate commitments and the corporation to honor commitments made by their workers. (Lately, I have had far more disappointment with companies failing to honor the statements made their support staff).

[jacksan1]

Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai all have auto plants in the US WITHOUT unions.

Interestingly, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and other automakers in Japan are all unionized. I was a member of the auto union (Japan Automobile Workers or JAW) when I worked at one of them, and so was everyone, except of course for the management. Did productivity and quality suffer because of unions? Well, you know the answer.

As others said, it all depends upon which union in which setting, and how things are done between the unions and management.

[7speed]

I agree it depends on the situation. I am a shop steward for AFSCME Local 3911 New Castle County Paramedics. We need to be unionized and I"ll leave it at that.

Some unions do work over the system and are no longer serving their initial purpose.

I agree with this post. I feel that anyone who's industry/job is directly controlled by government budgets (Medical, Teachers, and the like) should be part of a union, simply because the workers need some collective power to match that of their employer. That said, my issues stem strictly from private sector unions.

I heard on the radio this morning on my way to school that CN and the unions have reached a tentative agreement, and so have gone back to work, with the vote to accept/reject the contract happening later this week. I just hope my car gets delivered soon in case the worst happens.

Would your dealership do a swap with a dealership that has the specific car you want, or are you stuck still waiting and waiting and waiting?

I figure there's no real point. We decided to get the car so my wife would have a vehicle to get to work with, and I would get the old car to commute to work when I start my internship in May. We really don't need a second car yet, but I am getting really excited, and my patience is being tested. It's like Christmas as a kid, except I'm paying for the present.

[sixdgrees]

I have an uneducated opinion of unions. That is to say I have an opinion but it is soley based on my experience as a consumer and a manager (who is responsible for new hires and terminations). I have never belonged to a union.

I think unions definitely served an extremely important purpose years ago in getting governments to enact employment safety standards and minimum wages. But I see many cases now where they way over step their bounds. I have two examples - about a year ago or so the public transit employees here in Toronto went on strike with almost no notice - that is to say I woke up to go to work and heard on the news they were on strike.... there had been no mention of it on the previous evening's news. This was appalling to me. That a union had enough power to strand a city with no notice.

The more recent example is the CN strike that is currently going on (although I hear here's a tentative agreement)...... there is now a shortage of gasoline in Toronto due to this strike and a fire at a refinery a couple of weeks ago. This strike is contributing to hundreds of gas stations running dry. Justified? Not justified? I don't know but it is a major pain.

My father taught me to view job security as my ability to get another job. The idea that job security should be based on anything other that merit and market conditions is illogical to me. I'm not saying unions are all bad but when I have an employee who is not pulling their weight they get a couple of warnings and then they're out the door. It is not my job to 'carry' weak performers. And on the flipside when I have a superstar reporting to me I do my best to keep them happy.... using salary, perks, etc.