Unbelieveable Dealer work on my Q!!!

[boomstriker]

I bought my '92 Q with low miles when it was 2 years old from a local dealer. I've done all the maintenence since and aside from the injectors and upper links, it's been a great car.The lifters have been intermittently noisy for the last year and what I hoped was just piston slap has turned into a slightly louder rod knock.I pulled the engine in hopes of saving the crank and figured I'd do the guides and everything while I was at it.The front cover had orange sil rubber on it and was obviously removed at one time before I bought the car.When I dropped the pan, it was loaded with chunks of chain guide, pieces of oil pump sprocket, the broken ear from the front cover, and the pick-up strainer was completely loaded with a handfull the smaller pieces choking off oil pressure and causing the spun rod bearing.Since the front of the motor was all in tact, this junk was left in the pan by the dealer who replaced the guides under warrenty.My dealer never told me of any engine work done to the car when I bought it. After some research, I discovered that the guides went south early in it's life. Grub Infinity in Texas did the repair but neglected to pull the pan and get the trash out. The car was traded and promptly sent to St. Louis for resale.When I told Infinity consumer affairs about their dealers' shotty work, they said it had to be confirmed by an Infinity dealer, and since it was at a specialized shop, she could do nothing.I figured the least they could do is buy the parts.I even offered to take the parts in question to my local dealer but she insisted that it would be left up to Grub Infinity to make any decision as to fault and since it was well past the warrenty for service, she could do nothing.I told her, "If your dealer is good enough to send a car out knowing it has loads of trash in the pan, do you think they're going to admit they did it or that it would cause a problem?""That's why they shipped it to Missouri!!!!

I had hoped Infinity dealers/mechanics would be above doing something like this to their customers. Guess not!! It's a lot of work to drop the cross member and the oil panon these things. But with all the guide problems and Infinity mechanics being no better than the rest, I'm sure there are plenty of other Q's out there with trash left in the pan.

Maybe someone out there has a better way to get them to help out. Kirk

[J-Owner]

Are you referring to Grubbs Infiniti in Euless, Texas (Dallas Suburb)? If so then I wouldn't count on those crooks for anything. I bought my J from them in '95 and they are a bunch of dishonest bast@#$%! I had a hell of a time with them on service, although I did get a fine automobile out of it but I will never buy another car form them.

As for Infiniti corporate, I am not surprised you didn't get anywhere. I can assure you anything that might cost them any money will be your fault. everyone is a liar to those people. I had it out with them over my sunroof that broke at 36,800 miles. Not there fault they said. I got no where.

You definetely got screwed. I hate to hear that but i wish you the best of luck.

[Q451990]

And with that subject line I was hoping that it was a good dealership service story for a change.

How many miles are on your car? How many miles and years since the work was completed? In any case I'm afraid you may not get far. I'd document everything, take pictures, and make sure Infiniti knows that you're going to post them here. Maybe they'll do something but on a 12 y/o car it's going to be a tough sell.

Heath

[maxnix]

You could always get a lawyer and start a website.

[greg_atlanta]

I wonder if the "new" guides are the old style or new style? If they're the exact part from most 90-93 models then they're prone to fail again.

[boomstriker]

The car had 46k when they broke in '96.It now has 125k.I'm sure it took a little while for all the small pieces to pack into the strainer and clog it up, but it's basically been without good oiling for the better part of it's life.And it still made it to 125k!!!!It's my wifes ride so it's been babied, which I'm sure helped.They at least replaced them with the new style.

I told Claire at Infinity I was planning on 'Beach'n' on a forum but it didn't seem like it was going to help.I get the feeling they've heard it all.

I took pics and tried to post them but couldn't get them small enough.

300x300??? That's a thumnail!!

Kirk

[elwesso]

Post the pictures in the members ride section....

http://www.nissaninfiniticlub.net/photopost

you can post big ones there!!!

[elwesso]

BTW.... Im really sorry to hear about your deal.. I wish it was gonna be a happy ending... Normally Infiniti is really nice about this sort of thing....

[boomstriker]

Thanks elwesso!!

I'll post some pics there.

[Q451990]

Have you called Grubbs directly yet? I'd do that and then work my way up to their regional or district manager... can't hurt to try.

Heath

[maxnix]

You might try posting on FA as Danny the general manager posts there and Grubbs is a site sponsor.

Otherwise, if you have deep pockets and have documented your engine with pictures and can obtain affadavits, you might sue in TX and get triple damages. You would probably have to bankroll the attorneys until you prevailed. Remember, Grubbs might well have changed ownership or management since the work was done, so go easy.__________________Brian1995 Q45 & Q45t & 2000 Q45

Discover the power of the button!

[PalmerWMD]

Folks:

I already emailed a link to this thread, to Mr Danny Meyer, the General Manager Of DFW Infiniti.

But I can't promise, it will solve a bunch of stuff,as this work was done years ago..

Mostly as courtesy, to both the DWF GM and our member boomstriker.

Fred..

[Q45tech]

The legal limit for recovery is that the car must fail before 100k or 7 years of manufacture.........especially when you buy a used car "as is".

The car engine lasted 7+ years after the repair, pretty much in excess of the 12,000 mile/12 month dealer repait warranty.

I keep reminding members to test/measure their oil pressure periodically to catch problems before they become severe.

Why we warn chain guide customers that if it has missing pieces they are obligated to spend another $500 to have the oil pan cleaned out............you would be surprised at how many try to get us to skip it to save the money.

Never seen a blocked strainer from chain guide pieces they are generally not ground to the size that can block the strainer and the ones that get thru are changed out at each 90 day oil change.

Every rod knock/bearing wear engine we have examined had wear from oil change interval problems not starvation.

[Q45tech]

You would be surprised at the number of dealers who just replaced the drivers slack side guide, no new tensioners, no new oil chain, nothing done to the passenger side.

Why I believe they should all be checked even if they have RTV color evidence of the front cover removal............too much risk for the small $500 checking fee..........especially those done 6-7-8 years ago!............as that was the standard practice then.

[dfw_danny]

I was sent a link to this thread and I want to thank Fred for doing so. Just for the record the facts as laid out by boomstriker just do not add up.

First of all I cannot tell you if we ever even worked on the car or what we did to it if we did work on it because there are no records that go back that far. They currently go back to 1994 models.

We are talking about a 14 year old car that boomstriker says had warranty work done on it 12 years ago and now is having problems. He then makes the jump that the reason he now has problems is that the work performed back them was poor.

He goes on to alledge that after we made the repairs we somehow knew the car was going to be a problem and in the dark of night shipped it out of state si that it would never again darken our door.

The problem with his theory is that the warranty information would still have been available in the Infinitinet system at that time and in any case warranty work is no secret, we do it everyday. If as he suggested the car went to St Louis it is because someone came in and bought the car and took it to St Louis. We do not restrict the sale of our cars to Texans and we simply do not send cars out to state to sell.

I have been the General Manager for Grubbs Infiniti since 1998 and I can assure you this person has never once spoken with me, not that I would have done anything anyway. The car is well outside the warranty period and apparently has been a good car.

At some point a car owner must accept the fact that the car belongs to them, not Infiniti and not a dealer, and that the responsibility for repairs is theirs alone.

[AZhitman]

Unfortunate situation all the way around...

DFW, thanks for popping in on us.

On a side note, it would behoove you to bookmark this site - We are definitely a force in the Nissan/Infiniti community (our hits per month exceed that of AutoTrader.com). I work for Infiniti of Scottsdale, and Joe Tesensky (Parts Manager) can attest to NICO's influence on his business (and his bottom line).

[boomstriker]

Thanks guys for the help!!!!

I'm not going to spend money to press the issue legally.I was hoping to get Infinity to pay for the parts, I knew I'd be on my own for the biggest part, the labor.Since it's my own shop, it's just time and a learning experience.I have customers come in everyday with dealer horror stories.

I just sunk several grand in wheels and tires, new injectors, a/c comp, upper links and a wicked sounding dual exhaust, so I planned on keeping the car.

Talk is cheap, 'til you hire an attorney!!!One consultation will cost more than the parts to rebuild the eng.

The crank is very resilient. It only had very minor scratches after destroying a bearing!!I'll pollish it up, new rods and mains, timing componants, seals, purge the lifters and it'll be good as new.I changed the thermostat and a few hoses and put new bearings and brushes in the alt while it was out. I was going to do the trans while it was down but some of the others I've done at 130k had lots of life left on the friction material. It's a very beefy transmission.Nissans internally finned cooler is prone for clogging and causes most of the transmission problems on these things.

Kirk

[AZhitman]

Attaboy Kirk - Make sure you take TONS of digital pics so we can host them (perhaps you could write an article with step-by-step pics)!

Glad to have someone willing to reach into the heart of the beast here on NICO - Few are so brave.

[maxnix]

Don't forget to search for forecast on this board (where has he been anyway?) as he has a neat post on his rehabilitaion of his Q45 engine in a less favorable facility.

You know, Danny is a nice guy, and many have enjoyed dealing with him and his dealership. But it is an insult to our intelligence for him to infer that some how, some unknown prescence opened boomstriker's sump and inserted failed chainguide and oil chain drive sprocket bits. It's a symptom of modern society that all too many are eager to absolve themselves of responsibility a la Pontius Pilate. In his defense (but not in defense of Grubbs), he wasn't in a position of responsibility when the work was done.

Yup, there is a limit, even to shoddy dealer workmanship. Like they say, doctors bury their mistakes. Bad service technicians just wait for the warranty to expire.

Kirk, I hope you become an expert on the VH45DE through this experience.__________________Brian1995 Q45 & Q45t & 2000 Q45

Discover the power of the button!

[AZhitman]

Well said, Brian.

My "Tact Lock" key on my keyboard has been broken for years.

[PalmerWMD]

By all accounts DWF is a good dealership with a good service dept.But as dennis has pointed out shortcuts have been taken in chain guide jobs by dealers or indivudual techs.

Mr Meyer is a known, honest and competent GM, and this happended previous to his tenure.

I remember 4 years ago, on the old yahoo board when he first entered the Online Infiniti Community and I had to defend him from folks harrassing him cuz he was a dealer rep.

Much has changed in our communtiy since then and most agree now, that the input from knowledgable dealer folks, is absolutely neccessary to keep a balanced board.

Fred...

[AZhitman]

True.

I like the idea of having as many dealer reps as possible engaged actively in board discussions.

It's in their best interests (since we have so many members) AND because we can benefit from their insight.

[Q45tech]

They weren't short cuts they were a solution to what was known at the time -----------the nature of the failure. We learn NEW things every day.

If I knew that owners [and myself] would be keeping Q till 260-300,000 miles back when I had 100,000 miles guides done [1997], I would have had my chains replaced also!

Just had a horrible 109,000 mile California 90Q come in.......real sludge bucket with loud noise coming from HLA and everywhere.The 1st owner had it to 78k and did the chain guides and lots of other things..........the 2nd owner trashed it in 2 years and 31,000 miles.

[maxnix]

Yeah, I agree that dealers who appear on boards are valuable contributors. One thing that Dennis has done is educate us on the business perspective of independent shops. And Danny is a good guy and a valuable contributor, especially at FA. However, I think his integrity would be better served to say, "You know what? Grubbs might not have done the best or even a competent job, but I don't have the authority to rectify it." He was most truthful when he said at "some point, the owners are responsible for their cars." I would suggest it is when the owner takes delivery, becase like automobile insurance companies, the primary concern is not the customer, but staying in business. Ultimately, it is Nissan's responsibility for mucking up the whole chain guide design and then not rectifying it.

And while Dennis is correct in saying "we learn new things everyday," just where were those extra missing parts and pieces going if not to the engine's sump? Clearly a triumph of incompetence over a grasp of the obvious.__________________Brian1995 Q45 & Q45t & 2000 Q45

Discover the power of the button!

[boomstriker]

Danny,

Things don't add up??You say you don't know what you did because you don't have records?It took all of 2 minutes on the phone with Bommarrito Infinity to find out you did the work on the car, when, and the milage!The car is 11 years old, not 14, and you did the work 7 years ago not 12.I didn't call you because Claire said she did and you denied responsibility. Now you say you can't be sure this would cause a problem?

If a surgeon closes up someone's gut then discovers that he's missing a scalpel, does he say "oh well, hope that doesn't cause a problem?"

Did your mechanic think the pieces flew out the tail pipe???Or did he hope they were too big to plug the pick-up???

Was he certain the car would run 'till 125k?Or did he hope it would go another 4 when the warranty expired?

It doesn't matter how many miles the car 'made it' or how old it is or how long it's been since the work. The fact is, your guy's knowingly left trash in the oil pan.That is not an accident, or an oversight.It is pure negligence in an attempt to maintain a profit margin.

I've meticulously maintained every aspect of this car since I bought it, so, yes Danny, the responsibility for repairs has always been mine.Seeing how I found the 'scalpel', maybe you guys should be a little more responsible in your repairs.

Kirk

[SOCAL91Q45a]

BOOMSTRIKER,

Got my eyes on your project !!! Cant wait to get to mine. Got a couple Mustangs to finish/spin off - so I can get the cash I need for my baby [gonna be SPENSIVE .....]

My bad motor has a rod knock as well .... kinda eager to get inside that beast and see whaass up [SLUDGE BUCKET ... LOL ]

[Jberger]

FWIW, Danny's always been a good member on both the Yahoo and Fresh Alloy forums with tons of great feedback. I've communicated with him a number of times, and he's always been straight up with me. I've had my share of bad experiances with another dealer, but from all accounts, Danny is one of the good guys.

While it might seem that a less than steller job was done on the guide replacement, I've never even heard of the guides being replaced under warranty. Perhaps the original owner declined to pay for the extra labor to remove the pan and inspect?

These are old cars, I don't see how anyone can expect them to be indestructable, it's 11 years old. Even the service work on the guides is long past what a reasonable person would expect to be warrantied.

When you buy a used car, that not under warranty, it's your responsibility for repairs. That's the reason it's cheaper than a new one. You recieved a lower price in exchange for higher risk.

I know how you feel, after I bought my 90 Q (with dealer prepurchase inspection) it ate a transmission. Even though I did my due diligence when purchasing, and bought one which had already had the transmission replaced, the replacement unit failed and it was my responsibilty to repair it. Luck of the draw.

Replaced the transmission and even did the guides then I also lost an engine due to a bad bearing, even though I religously changed the oil and the previous owner had great oil change records. It's just the luck of the draw.

[911/Q45]

Whe you find evidence of low quality work, it's not luck of the draw. If the guides failed during the warranty period, then they were replaced under warrranty by the dealer. This is an integrity problem of Infiniti as a brand. I love my 90, but I won't be buying a new one when I replace it because of things like this.

[90Q45blue]

While it might seem that a less than steller job was done on the guide replacement, I've never even heard of the guides being replaced under warranty.

My chain guides, as well as my chain itself, were replaced under warranty at 99,986 miles AND they had not failed. There was some cracking on two of the guides and nothing in the oil pan. Had the work done at Steven Infiniti of Wichita, Kansas.

Nick

[Jesda]

Boomstriker:

How far are you from St Louis (Creve Coeur)? Maybe we can meet up. I'd love to check out the Q.

-Jesda