Tyler Clementi, Rutgers Univ. student, committed suicide

[heliochrome85]

All in all, Tyler's decision to commit suicide was his own recognizance and was not truly influenced by those around him. If he didn't want the ridicule and attention that came with being secretly gay, he should have taken better precaution or have been honest with himself and others and "come out of the closet".

how much self confidence did you hav when you were 18?

i have no issue prosecuting these people. they are no different than the bullies at school, or the moms on myspace who terrorize kids in the neighborhood, driving them to suicide.

[heliochrome85]

yeah, but they loaded the gun and put his finger on the trigger.

no difference.

[heliochrome85]

how are cases made in the legal world for accomplices to crimes?

[Bubba1]

how are cases made in the legal world for accomplices to crimes?

As coconspirators, however these two students did not aid in his action of jumping off the bridge. That's all on his shoulders.

I agree the suicide was his entirely own choice and that the pair should not charged with conspiracy to commit murder or murder charges. However, they should not get off scot free. What they did by not only secretly videotaping him having sex but actually posting it online was beyond rude. That was malicious and worthy of more than an invasion of privacy charge which I'm sure they'll get. At the very least I think the university should ask the pair to leave and not come back. I'm not sure a jury will convict them of a hate crime, but they do deserve some sort of punishment for their behavior.

[mattblancarte]

i have no issue prosecuting these people. they are no different than the bullies at school, or the moms on myspace who terrorize kids in the neighborhood, driving them to suicide.

Hmmm... I see a slight difference. They are all young adults in this particular case.

The guy who put his roommate up on twitter and live webcam is a real piece of s***, no doubt. Not sure if what he's done can be deemed criminal, though.

[telcoman]

i have no issue prosecuting these people. they are no different than the bullies at school, or the moms on myspace who terrorize kids in the neighborhood, driving them to suicide.

Hmmm... I see a slight difference. They are all young adults in this particular case.

The guy who put his roommate up on twitter and live webcam is a real piece of s***, no doubt. Not sure if what he's done can be deemed criminal, though.

Not criminal!

How about both of them being charged with a hate crime and a violation of his civil rights along with expusion from Rutgers and hopefully some serious jail time, fines and community service when they complete their jail time.

This is going to look real good on their resumes.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/1 ... nti_3.html

Telcoman

[mattblancarte]

Not criminal!

How about both of them being charged with a hate crime and a violation of his civil rights along with expusion from Rutgers and hopefully some serious jail time, fines and community service when they complete their jail time.

I was being literal. The only law that they might be nailed on would be Invasion of Privacy, which is pretty hard to be convicted of. However, in this case they may be in trouble due to the high visibility in the media.

As I said, the guy who was trying to be cool by putting those live feeds online is a 100% douche nozzle.

Not sure what would make sense for jail time, but they are proposing new legislation in Trenton. Those convicted of invasion of privacy could face up to 10 years in prison.

[stebo0728]

How about both of them being charged with a hate crime and a violation of his civil rights along with expusion from Rutgers and hopefully some serious jail time, fines and community service when they complete their jail time.

Once again Im inclined to say....punish them based on what they DID or DID NOT DO, stop trying to punish based on thoughts and emotions. Hate crime legislation is not FTW.

[IBCoupe]

"Intrusion upon Seclusion." If nothing else, these kids can get the snot sued out of them.

One who intentionally intrudes, physically or otherwise, upon the solitude or seclusion of another or his private affairs or concerns, is subject to liability to the other for invasion of his privacy, if the intrusion would be highly offensive to a reasonable person.

Another New York case, Nader v. GM:

The court ruled that spying, wire-tapping, eavesdropping, prying into the plaintiff's bank account, and using girls to effect an illicit relationship were acceptable as invasion of privacy claims.

And New York State Law makes what they allegedly did a misdemeanor:

A person, firm or corporation that uses for advertising purposes, or for the purposes of trade, the name, portrait or picture of any living person without having first obtained the written consent of such person, or if a minor of his or her parent or guardian, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

There may be other charges, but I can't really look for other statutes at this time. Suffice it to say, the government is not out of line to prosecute these people.

[AZhitman]

^ Thank you.

This guy has a right to be secure in his actions, occurring in a private domicile, without the threat of having his most imtmate moments broadcast to the world.

If I'm not mistaken, IB, I think some of the new "cyberbullying" and harassment laws might come into play here. I'm not well-versed on them.

p.s. To those of you who profess to be liberal, and supposedly love your privacy, while painting me as a right-wing homophobe - now would be a good time to check yourselves.

[stebo0728]

I think it's understood that they CAN be charged (although I still have reservations about that), but the question is more of an ethical one. I'll repose the question I posted in my original post - "One college student is already dead, is it really far to run the lives of two others because of his stupid action?" My answer to that - No.

We all do stupid things as teenagers and if we were all punished in the same way that you've (IBCoupe, telcoman) recommended then each one of us would be working at low income jobs without the possibility to expand further because of our criminal records.

These kids have a bright future - that's why they've been accepted to Rutgers University. Don't destroy them because the kid choose to jump off a bridge. Let's be realistic now.

While I understand your sentiment here, I ask you: whats the incentive for future douche bags to NOT take similar actions to this one?

And what does it matter what university they got accepted to, or how bright their future is? The law should apply equally regardless of status, and to argue otherwise feeds into the "more fortunate rich" or "daddy's boy/daddy's girl" argument that we are trying to dispell in this society (or at least I am trying to dispell it). I look at it this way, if these douches have no moral fabric by which to judge whether this was an "ok" action to take or not, then do we even want them in whatever "bright future" they may be headed for? Maybe this knocks them back down to lottery tickets and natty packs where they belong. Just sayin...

[IBCoupe]

Nothing I did put someone into a depression great enough to kill themselves just days later. You can say that we don't know that there's a relation there, but that's crap. Think about the world this kid lived in after the broadcast - he couldn't leave his room, because everyone in the dorm knew about it. He couldn't stay in his room because it was his damned roommate that did it to him.

To be 100% honest with you, that he killed himself is completely beside the point. This was sexual exploitation. This was a violation of trust on a fundamental level. I can bring the long arm of the law down on those kids and get a year's worth of good sleep.

If I'm not mistaken, IB, I think some of the new "cyberbullying" and harassment laws might come into play here. I'm not well-versed on them.

You might very well be right, Greg, but I'm not sure if NY has any laws like that, or if there's been federal law passed. I'm pretty sure MA did it after their incident, but I don't know if NY followed suit.

[stebo0728]

You should look at it more like this:

No adverse punishment given to these two for the suicide of Tyler Clementi = No more morons taking their life because they have now come to the realization that it won't cause the legal and punitive recourse that they have hoped for.

So that is to say the only reason the kid committed suicide was so that the other 2 would get in trouble? Sorry not buying that one, and Id wager the kid had lots more going on way before any of this other stuff occurred, he didnt jump to get the other guys busted. He jumped because most likely the public shame was just more than he could bear. Does that excuse that he jumped? No.

What portion of my post are getting that from? More fortunate rich? Daddy's boy/Daddy's girl?
Did you get that because I simply stated that they were accepted into Rutgers University? They could have been accepted to ABC Community College for all I care. The fact I was getting at is that they've gotten farther than 42,100,000 million who choose to NOT go to post-secondary school. You want to press charges on the homeless guy that caused someone's suicide? Or the neighborhood crackhead that caused everyone's houses to burn down? GO RIGHT AHEAD! Those examples are of people who have made no effort to contribute positively to the community, economy, or United States, as a whole.

But, no, these two students have taken a step toward the "bright future" you choose to disregard by attending college. Whether they are being provided that because they are the fortunate rich or daddy's child makes no room for a valid argument. There is no need to destroy that opportunity of continuing their bright future because of the idiotic action of another. They didn't "pull the trigger" and don't deserve the destruction of life that would follow for someone who would have "pulled the trigger".

Expel them! And watch them work the way back up to society's excepting arms thru a community college or other post-secondary school. But don't put bruises on their otherwise clean criminal record. Save THAT for the homeless guy or neighborhood crackhead.

Well I wasnt attributing the "fortunate rich", "daddys child" attitude to you in this case. That is a large envy position held by the lazy in this nation. My point was that bringing the status of the guys into this argument adds to the validity of that argument.

IF these guys do have such a bright future ahead of them, then a years imprisonment on a misdameanor charge wont slow them down too much either, and then equal application of law will have been respected, and perhaps others will consider this before taking similar action. Thats ONE reason there is a distinction between misdameanors and felonies, punishment can be dealt, without such a devastating blow to the individual convicted.

[stebo0728]

No Im not joking in the least.

And also lets be clear. I am advocating EQUAL treament, and FAIR treatment under the law. Some here are wanting to step it up a notch with "hate crime" legislation, and thats the whole reason I entered the discussion, because that would be rediculous. But it seems some legal recourse is warranted.

Lets also realize, lets say these guys are pretty much stand up folks, and they had a moment of moral unclarity and did what they did. Regardless of what charge you throw at them, its not gonna stick that way anyway when all is said and done. If they are smart, they'll plea it down, may even walk away unscathed, and have a bit of community service. BUT they will have entered the system, and at least had first hand experience on what their future will be like if they dont shape up.

The University is free to do as they please, kick em, keep em, Im not gonna argue either way there because at the end of the day, its the University's choice. But as far as the law goes, they committed at least some kind of infraction, and it needs to be dealt with. We can argue all day what extent it should be, and what the punishment should be, and what not, but at the end of the day it gonna be one judge, 2 lawyers, and may 12 jurors worries about it.

[AZhitman]

I respectfully disagree (although, IL, you're holding your own - nice work).

If they're THAT homophobic and hateful, I don't see them as contributing much to the future fabric of society except more hate and homophobia. Screw them.

BTW, the fact that they're students at Rutgers means nothing to me. Lots of college students turn out to be a waste of tuition. That homeless guy MIGHT have been a decorated veteran. That crackhead MIGHT have been a former E.R. doc who saved 1,500 lives in his career before he fell apart.

The kid who killed himself is NOT on trial here. His actions are not germane to the discussion.

Let me switch this up (and I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, so if any of it's not applicable, it's because it is purely hypothetical):

If I secretly filmed your sister and your mom, in the privacy of their bathroom, while no one's home, explicitly pleasuring each other with a bucket of Rocky Road ice cream and a GI Joe doll... posted it on the Internet, and included their names and addresses, what should my punishment be? Does it matter if I'm 19 years old or 49 years old?

Keep in mind, your friends, their employers, and even the local PTA get to see it as well - As a good "cyberbully", I'd make sure to email it to all of them.

[IBCoupe]

And the State might pursue criminal punishment against Greg.

There's public policy at stake, IL - we do not tolerate exploitation of a person's private life. It's at least a misdemeanor, and they should be punished.

And, yes, I'm quite the heartless bastard, but you're hardly one to talk, at this point.

[I'd post more, but class is starting up...]

[IBCoupe]

If the first thing that popped into his head was "I'm going to kill myself" instead of "I'm going to take a reasonable approach to this situation and wisely outweigh my options", then I apologize for him. He wouldn't have had much of a future in the real world with that sort of mentality.

Demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of teenagers, or a complete misunderstanding of suicidal depression, or both.

[mattblancarte]

There's public policy at stake, IL - we do not tolerate exploitation of a person's private life. It's at least a misdemeanor, and they should be punished.

I agree. To what extent they should be punished, I don't know (nor do I have the time right now to formulate and opine). Too busy coding.

The only hangup I see in terms of prosecuting the douche roomie is the fact that the domain in which the webcam occured was shared. How private is a shared dorm? Not sure, as it probably varies from state to state. Just thinking out loud here.

[heliochrome85]

the level of stupidity and callousness with which IL is debating is astonishing.

unless youve been there, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. this isnt a roommate teabagging. grow up.

[IBCoupe]

Know a lot of at-risk teenagers, IL, do ya?

Like I said, that he killed himself is not really that important to me. The violation was bad enough to warrant state action in either case. It's one thing to violate a roommate's privacy by walking in on him having sex with another man. It's another thing entirely to set up a hidden camera and tell people to watch.

I don't give a crap about the future that these kids had ahead of them. If you're to the point where you're not willing to cut slack for the kid who threw himself off a bridge, then I don't understand how you can cut slack for the two kids who brazenly violated one of our most basic civil rights. I'm sorry, IL, but you're really holding what appears to be two incompatible standards. Wouldn't look so bad if you didn't come down so hard on the kid that's dead.

[heliochrome85]

maybe its cause i went to a school with a large gay population, that im taking this seriously?
http://gawker.com/5655407/the-top-10-co ... y-students
could also be that i spend most of my day every day watching people die, and i dont think people like Tyler should be driven to their own deaths over bigoted petulent s*** like what you so proudly defend as "boys being boys"

except in this case, we are now short one as a result.

ive had friends kill themselves. i know what its like to go through, ive seen the carnage, and ive seen the destruction they leave behind. there is absolutely NO situation in my mind where these two kids should get off scott free. that you are continuing to defend their future while glancing over the life they destroyed is pathetic and speaks volumes of your own character.

if you were gay, and someone did it to you, id be there defending your privacy.

[IBCoupe]

Again, his decision lies on his shoulders. And I'm not going to be nice and tip toe around what I believe just to make you feel better when I post.

I don't care if he's dead. For the third time, it makes no difference to me. I'm not supposing that I've got a better handle on at-risk teens than you do, but you wrote:

...the teenagers I know don't think about killing themselves the moment they hear something bad about them.

If you didn't want to make an issue of the types of teenagers you know, you shouldn't have brought it up.

It wasn't a "hidden" camera. It was a webcam publicly available and seen on Dharun Ravi's personal computer in the shared dormitory. Please read up on your news

Yes, it was a webcam that isn't always on. The roommate invited people to look at it. This buys you nothing. He used it to broadcast on the internet (by publicly inviting people to dial in) the private affairs of another, who should have been secure in his own space. You could maybe have an argument that Ravi wasn't doing anything wrong by watching the two go at it, or even by recording the two go at it, as it was his room. But he opened up the private affairs of another person to public scrutiny.

That two students are assigned to a room does not a "public domain" make.

I come down hard on the kid for jumping off of the George Washington bridge because he had numerous other options and outlets to go to.

And yet, you're treading with the utmost care on the kids who actually broke the law.

"She is innocent. She was just not smart enough to realize the consequence. We all do. People only talked about this because it was on the news. This sort of things happened every day in college. The public speaks out like a saint. Naive.

We are friends of Molly Wei. She is a bright and considerate girl. She is living in guilt right now. We do not want anymore criticism from anyone. We don't need moral lectures from anyone. We will continue to support Molly regardless."

She made her choices. She had numerous other options available to her, top among them to not do what she did.

[heliochrome85]

maybe its cause i went to a school with a large gay population, that im taking this seriously?
http://gawker.com/5655407/the-top-10-co ... y-students

Couldn't have given two s*** about whether you attended a largely homosexual school. What do you want? My sympathy? Congratulations?

The fact being that he was with another man means nothing to me, in reality. He could have been with a grandmother. A transexual. A dog..

It doesn't matter!

ive had friends kill themselves. i know what its like to go through, ive seen the carnage, and ive seen the destruction they leave behind. there is absolutely NO situation in my mind where these two kids should get off scott free. that you are continuing to defend their future while glancing over the life they destroyed is pathetic and speaks volumes of your own character.

Never said that his life is pathetic. His decision is pathetic and is one of someone with no moral stamina, however, but that's not what you're referring to.

Please re-read and properly comprehend my posts before attacking my character.

if you were gay, and someone did it to you, id be there defending your privacy.

Thing is, I wouldn't kill myself. Durrrrrrrr......end of conversation!

wow.

[stebo0728]

Thing is, I wouldn't kill myself. Durrrrrrrr......end of conversation!

Sorry to say, but you cant definitively say that. Its nice to think that you would never kill yourself, but let me tell you, until you are in any given situation yourself, you dont have the first clue how you are going to react. Maybe you will never get caught butt humping on camera, but I promise at some point in your life, turmoil of some sort will come. It comes calling for everyone at some point, in some shape, and it takes different forms for all, but I truely wish you the best when your time does come, because it will. It could be a set of events so horrifying for you that you are faced with the option of just ending it all, and you may just take that option. I certainly hope not. My point of course is not threatening, but just to alert you that until you can walk in a certain pair of shoes yourself, you never quite know how those shoes are gonna fit.

[heliochrome85]

Thing is, I wouldn't kill myself. Durrrrrrrr......end of conversation!

Sorry to say, but you cant definitively say that. Its nice to think that you would never kill yourself, but let me tell you, until you are in any given situation yourself, you dont have the first clue how you are going to react. Maybe you will never get caught butt humping on camera, but I promise at some point in your life, turmoil of some sort will come. It comes calling for everyone at some point, in some shape, and it takes different forms for all, but I truely wish you the best when your time does come, because it will. It could be a set of events so horrifying for you that you are faced with the option of just ending it all, and you may just take that option. I certainly hope not. My point of course is not threatening, but just to alert you that until you can walk in a certain pair of shoes yourself, you never quite know how those shoes are gonna fit.

even a broken clock is right twice a day

[stebo0728]

SUICIDE IS A FELONY IN NEW JERSEY. HE BROKE THE LAW.
.

Wait what? Are you sure you mean suicide, or attempted suicide? The former seems to me, i dunno, unenforceable?

[stebo0728]

even a broken clock is right twice a day

Not if its stuck on military time, then its only right once a day

[IBCoupe]

Hey look, I have sprinklers on my lawn. They aren't always on, but they go on sometimes! Ohh! Cool!

Doesn't matter.

What a horrible parallel. Do your sprinklers have the ability to violate a person's civil rights? Get serious, please.

Be being as educated as you are on certain topics, you sure lack it on the legal side.

SUICIDE IS A FELONY IN NEW JERSEY. HE BROKE THE LAW.

But I thought we didn't care that he was dead, as you so nicely said in your reply. God, it's like going in a merry-go-round with you.

I'm glad you wrote that, because now I can write this:
SO PROSECUTE HIM FOR HIS CRIMES, TOO. OH, WAIT.

[stebo0728]

It is without punishment, but is legally defined in New Jersey as a felony. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Hey I wasnt doubting you, just clarifying. Theres plenty of rediculous law out there.

So you decide to bold and supersize the fact that suicide is illegal, all while trying to completely clearing the names of these douche bags? Are you sure your not planning to be a lawyer?

[IBCoupe]

Obviously the intelligent conversation in this thread as come to an end because of people trying to play the devil's advocate.

Don't blame yourself.