Twin turbo ka-t. Can it be done?

[QuickerThanU]

Like the title says. I have a few functional 240s(91 & 97). I would like to use one of them as a project. I was thinkin of a project for one, ie the dual turbo. Some of u would think why wouldnt i just get a good ball bearing turbo? Simple answere. That wouldnt be a good project plus im lookin for about 675 whp and im lookin for instant boost so i was thinkin maybe a t25 mounted on the exhaust boostin at 2500 rpm then having that boost from the t25 spool a bigger turbo mounted maybe near the cat or muffler then u-bend all the way back to the ic and so on. I know is not good for boost to travel so far but any advice would be welcome cuz i am kinda serious about this project. I also really dont need to hear a 98000 dollar price tag or watever or anything about cost cuz i dont care and im not lookin for 675whp budget car, just an unusual way to get 675 - 700whp.

[emperor_lunchbox]

I dont think its a matter of price. I think it's a matter of feasibility. Sure, anything is possible. But, can a KA flow enough air to handle two turbos, let alone your ultimate power goals. As far as your remote mount idea. People have been doing that for years and years. Check out Squier turbo systems. All of their systems are in the back of the car where the exhaust exits.

[emperor_lunchbox]

here's an example:http://www.ststurbo.com/c6_cor..._pics

[QuickerThanU]

I dont think its a matter of price. I think it's a matter of feasibility. Sure, anything is possible. But, can a KA flow enough air to handle two turbos, let alone your ultimate power goals. As far as your remote mount idea. People have been doing that for years and years. Check out Squier turbo systems. All of their systems are in the back of the car where the exhaust exits.

I know about the remote turbos but 4cyl engine dont usually have enough exhaust velocity to spool them to efficiency. A ka doesnt make enough force to spool 2 turbo on 1 manifold. Thats the reason for the 1st turbo mounted conventionly on a turbo mani. When turbo 1 would boost it would be flowing boost straight to the 2nd larger turbo mounted somewhere like where the cat normaly would be. So therefor since turbo 2 is being spooled by turbo 1 its more like a sequential turbo setup on twin turbo vehicles, ie t25 for instant boost along with a fairly larger turbo for big boost.

[emperor_lunchbox]

seems like way too much effort when a tuned KA with a larger than average turbo would yield the same results. I think it would be cool to see a KATT, but it's more trouble than it's worth. IMO anyway.

[QuickerThanU]

A larger than average turbo would prolly get the numbers i wanted but along with that larger turbo would come more lag. Id rather not wait till 4500 grand to get boost. I would love to build a ka-tt to be a instant boosting power house that in UNIQUE! That is my main goal to be unique with a turbo setup. I wouldnt care if i got only 450hp from a tt setup. It would still be unique.

[KATwo40]

Well, let's look at this with some rice math.

Cost = Approximately 2-3 times the value of the vehicle

Engine Displacement = Too small for this concept (ever notice only the six cylinder engines came in TT mode...and the only inline was the 2.6L?)

Showability = Very High because it's "different"

Now, let's put it into formula.

Cost + Engine Displacement + Showability = Mad Tyte Ridiculous "Original" design, with a less than expected capability.

Yup. I'd say it's a sure go!

[j-z]

actually you wouldnt have to remote mount the t25. i remember seeing a nice twin setup on a sedan focus in modified like months ago. i forget who built but it was nice. you have tons more room in the ka bay to mount two turbos in there than the focus does. i believe he had the smaller turbo mounted on the manifold along with a wastegate mounted on the mani. all exhaust gasses expelled from that turbo went to the bigger turbos exhaust inlet along with a wastegate mounted on that pipe to regulate boost psi for the bigger turbo. then the gasses expelled from the bigger one of course went down and out the exhaust. the bigger turbo was only inches away from the smaller one. he was also running two interoolers, one for each turbo. i bet this was for quicker spool up so the smaller amounts of air from the small turbo wouldnt have to go through one big one which would take just a split second longer. i would just Y both of them together into one 24X12X3. you would def have to run a blow through setup or just run a map with a standalone. it can easily be done with time and some good fab skills. it wouldnt cost much more than a regular single setup either. just the cost of another turbo, another wastegate, and a lil extra piping and more time. i would like to see something like this done. it would def aid in having a more streetable high horsepower car. but trying to drive a car with that much power on the street is kinda ridiculous. although there are a few numb nuts that drive 1000 whp supras on the streets around here, so go for it.

[KATwo40]

The fundamental flaw in this design is that the smaller turbine exhaust housing will limit how much power is made overall. The engine's VE will decrease sufficiently as the larger turbo begins to make significant boost levels, as a result of the small turbine housing choking out the system.

Once the exhaust manifold pressures get too high, reversion occurs, VE is lost, exhaust temps rise, cylinder pressures get too high, etc.

The ONLY way to make it effective would be to have a bypass system to allow the smaller turbine housing to be dropped out of the exhaust flow path once the larger turbo begins to spool. This would require some elaborate exhaust plumbing/valving.

I doubt you'd reach the 750whp mark with the design explained by j-z.

[j-z]

yeah i dont think youd be able to make 750 whp out of it either. id say 500 or just because of the problem with the smaller turbo as you described. but the way i described it is the best way to do it as it will still allow for real quick off the line driveability and some top end juice with the bigger turbo. now to optimize it would be to put some sort of flap door to block gasses from entering the smaller turbo once the bigger one is boosting, but that would require an entirely different and complicated setup than the one i mentioned. i believe the focus was only putting down 400 or so, but i bet it got off the line pretty quick. if you really want to make 750 hp (for what btw??) then i suggest replicate the ams car. anything above 500 on a street car is really pointless as youll never get it to the ground until youre going about 80. a good sized straight t4 should yield good results for a high hp street car. but if you really have to have two turbos no one is holding you back. we all know it just really doesnt make too much sense to do so, but it can be done.

[kanye240]

this might be better ....less piping less weight .......you just gotta find an operating system for it ....http://www.autoblog.com/2005/11/27/next ... -geometry/

[fiznat]

What is that, a variable trim turbo? Sweet.

To answer the question "can it be done," the answer is probably, with enough money and determination you can do pretty much anything with a car.

The question you need to ask is "SHOULD it be done," to which the answer is most definitely no. The expense and complexity of the design is totally not worth it given that there are so many other options out there. This is a pipe dream that will most likely never work out in the end.

[dontbugme]

VW had good results with a supercharger/turbocharger set up:http://www.automotive.eaton.co....html

[TheOne]

somebody in the ka-t.org forum(i believe) was doing this such setup, he built his own manifold with a by-pass to turn off the first turbo whenever the 2nd spools up, don't know the results as i lost track of it.

have fun finding a VGT(variable geometry turbo) turbo with its needed things to make it work right, cummins diesel engines have those(either dodge or ford diesel trucks)

[kornaz]

JGS was making a TT setup on ka-t.org

[KATwo40]

There's a company who makes smaller VATN (Variable Area Turbine Nozzle) units that are also sealed (no oil lines needed). They are good up to around 10-12psi and can easily be used on the KA.

The downside is the cost. I think they're about $2500.

[Mind_Drifter]

those are sick pcitures.how the hell do they do that with the turbos in the back i dont get it

[2FourTee]

http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7446

JGS was making a TT setup on ka-t.org

Modified by 2FourTee at 10:57 PM 7/18/2006

[Bosrudorfer]

JGS was making a TT setup on ka-t.org

I saw that thread, pure sick

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I would think that this is very possible (getting one turbo to "virtually" shut down when another kicks on, youd just need multiple wastegates (not necessarily for exhaust) and some of those exhaust cutout thingy's set for different boost levels, or if you could turn it around so it closes off a secion of exhaust instead of opening one. I would think i wouldnt take TOO much R&D to accomplish, and would be fairly easy to do with a large wallet and decent fabricating skills.Hell, Ill do it if you pay me.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

^ I wrote that before i looked at the JGS post, and its very similar to what I was thinking, except my idea wasnt as compact. It looks like itll be getting awfully hot in that little area, especially where that valve is that he has, located between 2 turbos and a manifold, that shizzle is gonna get HOT

[shockload]

bahhh, i would rather have a t70 and dump the clutch if i need to get going . revs never drop out of the usable powerband with a large turbo on a ka so y mkae a drag on the engine with a second turbo.

[QuickerThanU]

Sigh. For the people who offered usuable, good advice, thank u. For the people who say 900 times, "You put more money into it then the value of the car, or the outcome"? Shut up. This comment annoys me. We dont all work the mcdonalds makin 6 dollar a hour, saving pennie for a conventional turbo. I just wanted somethin different. W/e. Its called a project for a reason. This coulda been a fun project for me but with the usuable feedback i got... Ill pass.

[KATwo40]

Sigh. For the people who offered usuable, good advice, thank u. For the people who say 900 times, "You put more money into it then the value of the car, or the outcome"? Shut up. This comment annoys me. We dont all work the mcdonalds makin 6 dollar a hour, saving pennie for a conventional turbo. I just wanted somethin different. W/e. Its called a project for a reason. This coulda been a fun project for me but with the usuable feedback i got... Ill pass.

I love the people that come to this board and are "so much better than the average man," but still turn to "the average man" for their decision on a car project.

At least you see the error in your ways. Now, back to my burger flipping.

[2FourTee]

Sigh. For the people who offered usuable, good advice, thank u. For the people who say 900 times, "You put more money into it then the value of the car, or the outcome"? Shut up. This comment annoys me. We dont all work the mcdonalds makin 6 dollar a hour, saving pennie for a conventional turbo. I just wanted somethin different. W/e. Its called a project for a reason. This coulda been a fun project for me but with the usuable feedback i got... Ill pass.

Not having the money to do a project like this and being smart enough to realize when something is not worth the time and effort are 2 different things. If you're giving up because of feedback you got on an internet forum, then you have neither the experience nor the resources to do such a project anyways.

Would it be cool? Sure it would. But other than the cool factor of having a KA-TT, it's a whole lot of work for something that is going to be very difficult to setup, very difficult to get all the bugs worked out, and may never work properly. My advice is to follow what JGS does and see how their's works out. If they can't do it with their resources and knowledge, then it doesn't look so promising for the average do-it-yourselfer.

[QuickerThanU]

I love the people that come to this board and are "so much better than the average man," but still turn to "the average man" for their decision on a car project.

At least you see the error in your ways. Now, back to my burger flipping.

Ur so smart u should decide ur words better after u read my post clearly. I came here askin for knowledgable advice. Not to hear "I cant do it so u shouldnt do it" types of responce. I was lookin for knowledgable advice backed by the techinal issues of why it can or cant be done. Wtf is the name of this thread? Ka-tt can is be done?, plain a ****in simple. Im sorry maybe u dont speaka any engrisha? Perfect example of good help was the guy who posted the link to the other ka-tt so i thank u for that. Also what anyone part of my post made u think i was better than the average man? If u think so... I love u...

[KATwo40]

...im lookin for about 675 whp and im lookin for instant boost so i was thinkin maybe a t25 mounted on the exhaust boostin at 2500 rpm then having that boost from the t25 spool a bigger turbo mounted maybe near the cat or muffler then u-bend all the way back to the ic and so on...

My contribution:

The fundamental flaw in this design is that the smaller turbine exhaust housing will limit how much power is made overall. The engine's VE will decrease sufficiently as the larger turbo begins to make significant boost levels, as a result of the small turbine housing choking out the system.Once the exhaust manifold pressures get too high, reversion occurs, VE is lost, exhaust temps rise, cylinder pressures get too high, etc.

The ONLY way to make it effective would be to have a bypass system to allow the smaller turbine housing to be dropped out of the exhaust flow path once the larger turbo begins to spool. This would require some elaborate exhaust plumbing/valving.

I doubt you'd reach the 750whp mark with the design explained by j-z.

[MarkEmark]

Sigh. For the people who offered usuable, good advice, thank u. For the people who say 900 times, "You put more money into it then the value of the car, or the outcome"? Shut up. This comment annoys me. We dont all work the mcdonalds makin 6 dollar a hour, saving pennie for a conventional turbo. I just wanted somethin different. W/e. Its called a project for a reason. This coulda been a fun project for me but with the usuable feedback i got... Ill pass.

Hmm...based on your unabated desecration of the English language and grammar rules, as well as how patently obvious it is that you have no idea what you're talking about, I can't imagine you're making much more than 6 bucks an hour yourself.

Turboing a KA is not for the faint of heart, and if you've never dabbled in turbocharging a NA engine, jumping into the headaches of twin-turbocharging one is definitely not the way to go. It takes an unbelievable amount of money and knowledge to make just 400-500whp. 675 whp seems entirely unrealistic for you, unless somewhow you've come into a lot of money and are simply a checkbook mechanic.

And you ARE receiving knowledgeable, sincere advice, and from people who've actually turbocharged their KA's, and their advice is resolutely clear: forget the twin turbo idea. It's simply not feasible, especially when 750 rwhp has already been made on a KA with a single turbo.

[Jookmasta]

well there was that SR that was twin turbo'd, so technically it can be done. ill be honest tho, to get to ur power goals, i doubt it can be done with the tt setup. those variable turbo's may be a solution but as u said urself, our engines dont have enough exhaust velocity to spool 2 t04e's to make the power u want. if you choose to go ahead with this, do post the progress of it as i would be intrigued to see your manifold............

[Florida240sx]

For major props it would be sweet to see a KA-TT but you won't gain any power compard to single turbo. For the money you spend on doing it you could have a better flowing engine and surpass 2 small turbos. But hey whatever floats your boat.