To all you big boosters that want the big turbo, but yet want to drive around on the street and race civics and other small cars from a dead stop, a T3 sized turbo or bigger with a .63 exhaust housing or bigger will cause you some unwanted lag on the street and possibly at the strip. I ran a T3/T04 60-1 stage III in my old sentra with CA18DET and though it had wicked top end, it stunk-up the place for out of the hole racing or fun. It had a .63 rear end with a .60 cold side and it was horrible between gearshifts.
I have nearly the same turbo on my woman's sentra and the same results were present, so before I went to the track, I went out and purchased a .48 backhousing for the T3/T04E stage III and the difference was night and day. This car has a custom manifold, high flow intercooler and I even moved the timing as far as I sanely can to compensate the loss of low end boost, but to no avail. Now at 15psi, the car runs and sound insanely fast and boost response is perfect for this motor.
T25s and T28s on the CA18 (in my opinion) are jokes and I don't care how much you high flow them, they still are too puny to be efficient at high boost. These engines seems to enjoy the more efficient boost from the T3/T4 hybrid family. I mean better than 300whp with T3/T04B stage I @18psi is phenomenal on a stock engine and that was with a .63 housing on the exhaust side.
I'm sharing this info to prevent some of you from making a mistake and not being able to fully exploit the full potential of this motor through my experiences. I've wasted enough money and time with these motors to be able to spit valid info that has been tested and weighed. Now, what you guys do with it is all up to you.
Dee
Turbo selection!
i have the T3/T04E 50 trim w/ the 76 trim .63 turbine w/ stage 3 wheel, i have seen the Dyno's of SR's making 463+whp at 24psi on this turbo without breaking a sweat.
BUT
if i had to do it again i would go with the GT25R w/ the .63 turbine, that is one WICKED turbo.
there were some heated debates about how good this turbo really is and there are people making 380whp on the .63 A/R GT25R and 400+whp on the .86 A/R. the best thing is that it bolts up to the stock manifold and can use the HKS and other O2 elbow pipe, internally or externally wastegated, dual ball bearing.
now mind you it cost $1000, and the T3/T04E i have only cost $600 but then you got to add the cost of making a manifold, wastegate, custom elbow and down pipe etc etc..
i think the GT25R is the best turbo for the CA right now, but thats just my opinion,
BUT
if i had to do it again i would go with the GT25R w/ the .63 turbine, that is one WICKED turbo.
there were some heated debates about how good this turbo really is and there are people making 380whp on the .63 A/R GT25R and 400+whp on the .86 A/R. the best thing is that it bolts up to the stock manifold and can use the HKS and other O2 elbow pipe, internally or externally wastegated, dual ball bearing.
now mind you it cost $1000, and the T3/T04E i have only cost $600 but then you got to add the cost of making a manifold, wastegate, custom elbow and down pipe etc etc..
i think the GT25R is the best turbo for the CA right now, but thats just my opinion,
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boost_boy
- Posts: 7051
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The big issue is street/strip or Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde type performance. The average Joe around here can't afford the ball bearing units and most can't stand turbo lag, but yet we all want to have a little fun on the roads or at the track and don't want to lose because the boost comes in so late. Dyno queens make big HP because they are tuning for peak power and I know of some people (not saying any names) that make good HP on the dyno, but blow-up there as well chasing the big #s. This is more of a driveability issue and I can definitely say that the CA18 does not take to big exhaust housings very well on the street or strip. Quote »there were some heated debates about how good this turbo really is and there are people making 380whp on the .63 A/R GT25R and 400+whp on the .86 A/R. the best thing is that it bolts up to the stock manifold and can use the HKS and other O2 elbow pipe, internally or externally wastegated, dual ball bearing.[/quote] Once again, what you do on the dyno will be pretty hard to duplicate on a drag strip or street event. Those big back ends will slow down a CA18DET. An SR has more displacement, so it can run the bigger back ends. With a .63 back end expect your boost to come in around 4200rpm. With a .48 exhaust housing expect boost to come in at 3300-3500. That 700+ rpm means alot when it comes to drag racing and means nothing on the dyno. The .63 may do the CA18 some justice on the dyno (10-15hp), but will do you no good against a boosted b18C or an equally powered SR20DET powered car.
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boost_boy
- Posts: 7051
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I can honestly say this, anybody with a CA18 that has a .63 or higher back housing, is experiencing some lag issues and those very same lag issues eat-up time at the track. But before anybody say anything about the 650whp CA18 powered Sylvia, I would bet my left nut that thing is running high compression to make up for the lag of the big turbo.
How does the GT28RS compare? Has anyone actually used one of these on a CA yet? Or are they really just an overrated magazine turbo
If you look at the cost of a T3/T4 & manifold--you are in the same price range as a GT Series ball bearing. --How would that affect your decision on which Turbo to use?
If you look at the cost of a T3/T4 & manifold--you are in the same price range as a GT Series ball bearing. --How would that affect your decision on which Turbo to use?
i dunno if i agree with that, the GT25R may not be making full/max boost (25psi) till 4200rpm but when you are getting 12+psi at 3200rpm and 18psi by 3800rpm who cares, if you got full boost before that it'll just be wasted in wheel spin... i think the linier building of boost is better...
and when i plotten our info for 20psi into the compressor maps it was an AWSOME match,
GT25R specs (.63 turbine)DUAL GT STEEL BALL BEARING CENTER SECTIONTURBINE SPECS: T25.64 A/R HOUSING76 TRIM GT SERIES WHEELCOMPRESSOR SPECS: TO4S HOUSING.70 A/R HOUSING48 TRIM GT SERIES WHEELCOMPRESSOR FLOW: 44 LBS/MIN4 INCH INLET - this is the only downfall (hard to fab an intake)
good for ~440 max hp (~380whp)
i started the thread on freshalloy.com (GT25R vs T3/T04E 50Trim) that sparked allot of debate when i wanted to swap turbos and go with the GT25R and finally the GT25R came out on top, even the DIE HARD T3/T4 hybrid and T4 fans were really really impressed when they saw figures and spoke to those with the turbo and experience with it on their customer cars (Secret Services and others)
even people from garrett got involved and posted in the thread and other related threads... the GT25R is the best bang for the buck for bolt on 350-400whp turbo, the GT30 & GT35R Ballistic turbo is for the 440-500 whp range,
now i am not saying that the T3/T04E i have will not make more/better power, and i think it should make it at around the same rpm's, but the GT25R is much newer design and is bolt on.
freshalloy seems to be updating their forum but i'll post the thread (and related) once it is back online.
i just want everone to read and have an opinion for themselves as to what options they have when choosing a turbo...
but alas i still hope to make big numbers with the ol T3/T04E
and when i plotten our info for 20psi into the compressor maps it was an AWSOME match,
GT25R specs (.63 turbine)DUAL GT STEEL BALL BEARING CENTER SECTIONTURBINE SPECS: T25.64 A/R HOUSING76 TRIM GT SERIES WHEELCOMPRESSOR SPECS: TO4S HOUSING.70 A/R HOUSING48 TRIM GT SERIES WHEELCOMPRESSOR FLOW: 44 LBS/MIN4 INCH INLET - this is the only downfall (hard to fab an intake)
good for ~440 max hp (~380whp)
i started the thread on freshalloy.com (GT25R vs T3/T04E 50Trim) that sparked allot of debate when i wanted to swap turbos and go with the GT25R and finally the GT25R came out on top, even the DIE HARD T3/T4 hybrid and T4 fans were really really impressed when they saw figures and spoke to those with the turbo and experience with it on their customer cars (Secret Services and others)
even people from garrett got involved and posted in the thread and other related threads... the GT25R is the best bang for the buck for bolt on 350-400whp turbo, the GT30 & GT35R Ballistic turbo is for the 440-500 whp range,
now i am not saying that the T3/T04E i have will not make more/better power, and i think it should make it at around the same rpm's, but the GT25R is much newer design and is bolt on.
freshalloy seems to be updating their forum but i'll post the thread (and related) once it is back online.
i just want everone to read and have an opinion for themselves as to what options they have when choosing a turbo...
but alas i still hope to make big numbers with the ol T3/T04E
91rs13 wrote:How does the GT28RS compare? Has anyone actually used one of these on a CA yet? Or are they really just an overrated magazine turbo
Nobody has one (that I know of) making any power. Just look at the scc car. Impressed? I'm not...but they are also running on crappy cali gas and have the jwt team doing their tuning on a stock ecu. I'd like to see someone use that turbo w/ a stand alone ems, 93oct, and a good tuner. Then I'll decide.
Quote »How does the GT28RS compare? Has anyone actually used one of these on a CA yet? Or are they really just an overrated magazine turbo
If you look at the cost of a T3/T4 & manifold--you are in the same price range as a GT Series ball bearing. --How would that affect your decision on which Turbo to use?
[/quote]yes there was allot of camparrison between the GT28RS and the GT25R and the GT25R had more power making potential. BUT the GT28RS would be a wickedly fast spooling 320whp option.. jsut that SCC made 297whp at 18psi or somthing and the GT25R (.63) was making ~310 @ 18psi with more power potential.
and i think the GT25R w/ HKS upgraded actuator and O2 elbow will cost about $1250, where as the T3/T4, wastegate, manifold and fabrication of O2 elbow and modifying the S13 down pipe will be about $1600+, and then time for labour/fabrication etc... where the GT25R is bolt on affair that can take a day. and use all existing oil lines etc.
If you look at the cost of a T3/T4 & manifold--you are in the same price range as a GT Series ball bearing. --How would that affect your decision on which Turbo to use?
[/quote]yes there was allot of camparrison between the GT28RS and the GT25R and the GT25R had more power making potential. BUT the GT28RS would be a wickedly fast spooling 320whp option.. jsut that SCC made 297whp at 18psi or somthing and the GT25R (.63) was making ~310 @ 18psi with more power potential.
and i think the GT25R w/ HKS upgraded actuator and O2 elbow will cost about $1250, where as the T3/T4, wastegate, manifold and fabrication of O2 elbow and modifying the S13 down pipe will be about $1600+, and then time for labour/fabrication etc... where the GT25R is bolt on affair that can take a day. and use all existing oil lines etc.
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Spectre23
- Posts: 151
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- Car: S13 CA, 2013 STi, Tony Kart
- Location: Utah
- Contact:
So what I am getting out of this is that for 444cc injectors (only good for ~300 HP??) a GT28 ball bearing turbo would be a great match. But for more power with bigger injectors of course I would want a bigger turbo. Can't you conclude this from airflow ratings of turbos?
I am all about the ball bearing turbos. Although I have access to a VNT turbo that Garrett made that I may want to try. Since it isn't being used. And I could get it for free. The GT28 BB turbo I have is reserved for my propane powered hachi roku if I ever get a manifold made. I can get any Garrett turbos at OEM cost, so let me know if there is a BB turbo that Garrett makes that I should try. I may be willing to be the guinea pig. But I only want whatever power 444cc injuectors can deliver. For now anyway. And I am more interested in spooling time than ultimate power.
I am all about the ball bearing turbos. Although I have access to a VNT turbo that Garrett made that I may want to try. Since it isn't being used. And I could get it for free. The GT28 BB turbo I have is reserved for my propane powered hachi roku if I ever get a manifold made. I can get any Garrett turbos at OEM cost, so let me know if there is a BB turbo that Garrett makes that I should try. I may be willing to be the guinea pig. But I only want whatever power 444cc injuectors can deliver. For now anyway. And I am more interested in spooling time than ultimate power.
DSM guys complain about the 60-1 wheel spool dropoff between shifts also. Its a heavy wheel, so turbine housing won't solve it, only choke off the top end. The starion 2.6 slaps it around pretty good tho. DSM guys have swapped between the 60-1 and 50trim(turbonetics), same stg3/0.63 on same cars. The 50 is much better all accross the board.
jgstools.com posted about a small t3/4 that may be perfect for the ca. Made 375whp on a mazda 1.8 @~18psi. t04b with GN or s-trim/ stg1/ 0.48. Not bad for a brand new $600 responsive turbo. hit him up
A guy on freshalloy has a fast SR, bolt-on turbo upgraded off his core.Ran to4b comp (with v-trim? wheel I think he emailed me). Machined stock sr 0.64 hsg for a bigger turbine wheel. At 22psi it left long black tire marks in 4th gear, dry road. Thats torque! Had the 360 thrust bearing mod. Did 367whp on safc, 550s
Doesn't atpturbo, cheapturbo or somebody sells those gt25 and 28s for $775 ?
FP big28 put down 335whp/345tq on freshalloy. ~18psi. $750. stock SR n jwt 740cc programme. Not bad. One dsm made 348whp/376tq on same turbo. stock 2nd gen 4g63 with standalone. Ran the new FP $125 wastegate to maintain boost at hi rpms. I'd rig an hks $55 adj instead.
I'm gonna run mitsu turbos on both my CAs - proven, rugged at 20+psi, responsive, inexpensive, etc... Evo 16G is $550 shipped for a brand new complete turbo. One 2gen 3300+ lb car has gone 12.2 with it! He and others had boost creeep probs tho (gotta look into that). At one time he hit over 28psi at over ~5500rpm, so u know the turbo definitely flows. Not bad for a lo cost responsive turbo. I'll make a manifold for all the obvious reasons.
jgstools.com posted about a small t3/4 that may be perfect for the ca. Made 375whp on a mazda 1.8 @~18psi. t04b with GN or s-trim/ stg1/ 0.48. Not bad for a brand new $600 responsive turbo. hit him up
A guy on freshalloy has a fast SR, bolt-on turbo upgraded off his core.Ran to4b comp (with v-trim? wheel I think he emailed me). Machined stock sr 0.64 hsg for a bigger turbine wheel. At 22psi it left long black tire marks in 4th gear, dry road. Thats torque! Had the 360 thrust bearing mod. Did 367whp on safc, 550s
Doesn't atpturbo, cheapturbo or somebody sells those gt25 and 28s for $775 ?
FP big28 put down 335whp/345tq on freshalloy. ~18psi. $750. stock SR n jwt 740cc programme. Not bad. One dsm made 348whp/376tq on same turbo. stock 2nd gen 4g63 with standalone. Ran the new FP $125 wastegate to maintain boost at hi rpms. I'd rig an hks $55 adj instead.
I'm gonna run mitsu turbos on both my CAs - proven, rugged at 20+psi, responsive, inexpensive, etc... Evo 16G is $550 shipped for a brand new complete turbo. One 2gen 3300+ lb car has gone 12.2 with it! He and others had boost creeep probs tho (gotta look into that). At one time he hit over 28psi at over ~5500rpm, so u know the turbo definitely flows. Not bad for a lo cost responsive turbo. I'll make a manifold for all the obvious reasons.
Dori Dori i agree, but i want to find the thread to find out how much boost they made that WHP with and what 1/4 times they did. I also want to find the highest HP number on a SR w/ the T3/T04E 50T, and what boost that was at.
Quote »Doesn't atpturbo, cheapturbo or somebody sells those gt25 and 28s for $775 ?[/quote]the GT25R is different to both of those, but those are both good options for the CA.
the Forced Performance BIGT28 is also a great turbo for the CA.
Quote »I'm gonna run mitsu turbos on both my CAs - proven, rugged at 20+psi, responsive, inexpensive, etc... Evo 16G is $550 shipped for a brand new complete turbo. One 2gen 3300+ lb car has gone 12.2 with it! He and others had boost creeep probs tho (gotta look into that). At one time he hit over 28psi at over ~5500rpm, so u know the turbo definitely flows. Not bad for a lo cost responsive turbo. I'll make a manifold for all the obvious reasons.[/quote]DSM turbos are great!!! if boost creep is the problem you should look into the upgraded HKS actuators, they are supposed to be the shizt.
i almost bought a 18G turbo for my CA but didnt know enough about the DSM turbos to make a good decicion.
I really like this thread, it really lets people know their options about the different turbos out there....
Quote »Doesn't atpturbo, cheapturbo or somebody sells those gt25 and 28s for $775 ?[/quote]the GT25R is different to both of those, but those are both good options for the CA.
the Forced Performance BIGT28 is also a great turbo for the CA.
Quote »I'm gonna run mitsu turbos on both my CAs - proven, rugged at 20+psi, responsive, inexpensive, etc... Evo 16G is $550 shipped for a brand new complete turbo. One 2gen 3300+ lb car has gone 12.2 with it! He and others had boost creeep probs tho (gotta look into that). At one time he hit over 28psi at over ~5500rpm, so u know the turbo definitely flows. Not bad for a lo cost responsive turbo. I'll make a manifold for all the obvious reasons.[/quote]DSM turbos are great!!! if boost creep is the problem you should look into the upgraded HKS actuators, they are supposed to be the shizt.
i almost bought a 18G turbo for my CA but didnt know enough about the DSM turbos to make a good decicion.
I really like this thread, it really lets people know their options about the different turbos out there....
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boost_boy
- Posts: 7051
- Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:28 am
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When it all hits the fan, cost will be inevitable. The average person breaks a roller bearing turbo and he's in a bit of trouble $$$-wise; and they do break. A standard T3 is very repairable to the tune $250 my cost at least. I could easily get my hands on a Gt3037 below a $1000, but I'll leave that option open and just torment the rugged T3/T4 hybrids.
