Turbo or Supercharger?
Turbo or Supercharger?
Ive been beating my self up over which of these i should get. HKS Rotrex Supercharger http://www.hksusa.com/products/more.asp?id=2339 or the Power Enterprise PE Z33 TT KIT http://www.injectedperformance...d=667 and which intercool to get with it.. do i have to get a diffrent one for each or will they all work like univeraly.. also what is the main diffrent between the two, TT or SC i know TT is cheaper and faster but the SC is less wear and better for the car... thanks for the info guys and sorry if this has been asked before... what really got me intrested in the HKS supercharger was the new Import Tuner mag with the Hks 350 and the G35 with the really wicked paint job...everyone should check that out.
This is an age-old question particularily with this car.
A quick summary:
Twin Turbo:-greater potential-better area under the curve, which make a 400hp turbo fatser than a 400 hp SC'ed car
-greater expense to buy and also to install-some may argue greater risk as overboost is always a concern and historically many more turbo kits have blown engine as superchargers.-more efficient are gettign their engergy to pump extra air for free from exhaust
SuperCharger:
-very linear power= easy daily driving -less cost to buy-easier to install and tune-has parsitic drag b working directly off the engine crank
The HKS system you noticed is very high quality and very safe, buyt with not as much extra power about 80-90 hp extra and belive me you will always want more power.
The PE system is also a very high quality system with twin ballberiung turbos for faster spool and gretae longevity of teh turbos.
Cotinued safe opertion is definetly possible with either with a proper tune.
the PE system is more expensive but will give you noticably more power out-of-the-box and has a lot more potential for future upgrades
Call Marty at injected performance ( were I bought my ATI ProCharger) and feel free to ask him questions as well.
Keep in mind there is a school of thought that says you a forced induction and especially with a TT kit you should upgrade internals for safe operation.
I am running my SC w/o internals upgrade and many have run twin turbo systems w/o breaking engine ( but some have broken)
I dont know anyone who ahs broekn one with a PE system though, still, if its your daily driver and if it would be a catasrophe for you to replace an engine , everyone seems to agree the HKS is supersafe.You may also consider the STillen set-up with many Nissan dealers will install for you and for a small charge it includes an engine warranty (!).
there are so many factors here its hard to say whats "best".
Be sure to rummage through some old posts here on this board on this subject.
Fred..
A quick summary:
Twin Turbo:-greater potential-better area under the curve, which make a 400hp turbo fatser than a 400 hp SC'ed car
-greater expense to buy and also to install-some may argue greater risk as overboost is always a concern and historically many more turbo kits have blown engine as superchargers.-more efficient are gettign their engergy to pump extra air for free from exhaust
SuperCharger:
-very linear power= easy daily driving -less cost to buy-easier to install and tune-has parsitic drag b working directly off the engine crank
The HKS system you noticed is very high quality and very safe, buyt with not as much extra power about 80-90 hp extra and belive me you will always want more power.
The PE system is also a very high quality system with twin ballberiung turbos for faster spool and gretae longevity of teh turbos.
Cotinued safe opertion is definetly possible with either with a proper tune.
the PE system is more expensive but will give you noticably more power out-of-the-box and has a lot more potential for future upgrades
Call Marty at injected performance ( were I bought my ATI ProCharger) and feel free to ask him questions as well.
Keep in mind there is a school of thought that says you a forced induction and especially with a TT kit you should upgrade internals for safe operation.
I am running my SC w/o internals upgrade and many have run twin turbo systems w/o breaking engine ( but some have broken)
I dont know anyone who ahs broekn one with a PE system though, still, if its your daily driver and if it would be a catasrophe for you to replace an engine , everyone seems to agree the HKS is supersafe.You may also consider the STillen set-up with many Nissan dealers will install for you and for a small charge it includes an engine warranty (!).
there are so many factors here its hard to say whats "best".
Be sure to rummage through some old posts here on this board on this subject.
Fred..
The bottom line is you will not see the full potential of a turbo without doing an engine build up.
Any setup rather it be supercharging or turbcharging will harm the stock VQ when being pushed over 400 HP.
Save your money and buy the GTR. 450-480 HP OEM.
No Z will ever perform like the next GTR, I don't care how much is put into it.
Any setup rather it be supercharging or turbcharging will harm the stock VQ when being pushed over 400 HP.
Save your money and buy the GTR. 450-480 HP OEM.
No Z will ever perform like the next GTR, I don't care how much is put into it.
Re: (350zQ45a)
1)Agreed2)I dunno,... a LOT of folks are running 9lbs and 11 lbs pulleys on Prochargers in maryland,. for some time, with not single blow-up ("stock" procharger is 7 lbs), now this needs extra stuff, like ECU reflash, spendy headers etc and a full fuel returns system but its being done.. I saw 3 Z's like that when I was at Altereded atmospheres last week, I myslf am tempted to spend anotehr 3k for 9 lbs ( cost of pulley plus uprgades) or 5.7 k for 11 lbs pulley...3) That means a lot of saving at a 60 k car...4) It will be difficult to match the GTR but even now 350Z are running with 500 whp.. no AWD but still.350zQ45a wrote:
1)The bottom line is you will not see the full potential of a turbo without doing an engine build up.
2)Any setup rather it be supercharging or turbcharging will harm the stock VQ when being pushed over 400 HP.
3)Save your money and buy the GTR. 450-480 HP OEM.
4)No Z will ever perform like the next GTR, I don't care how much is put into it.
Fred..
Yea they may be running 500 hp, but how long until they pop.
Would you rather have an engine that is used in an altima, or an engine that was built for the ground up for forced induction, with a block designed by COSWORTH RACING. Yea they built F1 engines, and many many successfull other series engines.
The Z is a great car, and I'm sure I would drool for FI If I drove yours, but let's be real
The GTR will come with a full warranty and 450+ hp. It will also have an advanced suspension designed to handle that power. It will also have no lag turbos, which you will never have on a Z.
Modifying is fun but expensive. Just ask all the guys who spent 5-10k just on NA mods, to yield very little hp gains. They then realize they should of gone FI spending another 5-10k.
You can easily drop 10-20k on a Z, and if you add that to the sticker price, you will be close to a new GTR.
I'm not convinced of the long term reliability of boosting an engine that was never designed for it, without building it up first.
Would you rather have an engine that is used in an altima, or an engine that was built for the ground up for forced induction, with a block designed by COSWORTH RACING. Yea they built F1 engines, and many many successfull other series engines.
The Z is a great car, and I'm sure I would drool for FI If I drove yours, but let's be real
The GTR will come with a full warranty and 450+ hp. It will also have an advanced suspension designed to handle that power. It will also have no lag turbos, which you will never have on a Z.
Modifying is fun but expensive. Just ask all the guys who spent 5-10k just on NA mods, to yield very little hp gains. They then realize they should of gone FI spending another 5-10k.
You can easily drop 10-20k on a Z, and if you add that to the sticker price, you will be close to a new GTR.
I'm not convinced of the long term reliability of boosting an engine that was never designed for it, without building it up first.
You have some good points but...The 350Z suspension is all aluminum multi link, its doesnt get any more advanced than that.
I spent 7 k and have approx 400 crank hp, with more an easy "pulley-up" away.
So my car total right now sits at around 35k.i'd say it give about 80% of teh perforamnce I expect from the GTR at a much lower price.
Also with the price dfference so huge it will seem kinda cool to drive around with FI in the Z and 20k in Mods and be faster than the GTR.Stock GTR will likely go into thelow 13's hogh 12's.
I can get high 12's just with adding headers, hi-flows/Ypipe, catback and a retune to my current 7 lbs set-up...a 9 lb ouller should get mne to mid 12's an 11 lbs pully ( if combined with a Nismo LSD) to low 12's.
With used VQ35de getting cheaper broken motors arent the scare they used to be.
Also twin turboed 350Z are making crazy power too.
Fred..
I spent 7 k and have approx 400 crank hp, with more an easy "pulley-up" away.
So my car total right now sits at around 35k.i'd say it give about 80% of teh perforamnce I expect from the GTR at a much lower price.
Also with the price dfference so huge it will seem kinda cool to drive around with FI in the Z and 20k in Mods and be faster than the GTR.Stock GTR will likely go into thelow 13's hogh 12's.
I can get high 12's just with adding headers, hi-flows/Ypipe, catback and a retune to my current 7 lbs set-up...a 9 lb ouller should get mne to mid 12's an 11 lbs pully ( if combined with a Nismo LSD) to low 12's.
With used VQ35de getting cheaper broken motors arent the scare they used to be.
Also twin turboed 350Z are making crazy power too.
Fred..
in japan the perforamnce flagship for nissan above the Z has always been the skyline GTR.
Its coming to USA as either the Infiniti GTR or the Nissan GTR. will be somewhere from 55to 65, ooo and feature well over 400 hp ( 450ish?) and have all wheel drive.
many Z owners that want ultra high performance claim they can match that projected performance with a 350Z with forced induction especially twin turbo kits (IF they build up engine internals for high boost which is many thousands of $$).
My super charger from ATI come with a 7 lbs (=PSI) pulley.Thereare 9 and 11 PSI pulleys available ie, for a given crank speed the compressor turns more pushing more air into the motor =more power.
Of course its not as simple as a pulley swap, when you go to miuch more power than a 7 psi ulley , you need bigger injectors, ECU reflash, fuel return system , y Pipe, highflow cats and other improvments to the way the engine is run,
That that costs $$.my 9 lbs pulley would cost me at least $3200 to do it right.
Its coming to USA as either the Infiniti GTR or the Nissan GTR. will be somewhere from 55to 65, ooo and feature well over 400 hp ( 450ish?) and have all wheel drive.
many Z owners that want ultra high performance claim they can match that projected performance with a 350Z with forced induction especially twin turbo kits (IF they build up engine internals for high boost which is many thousands of $$).
My super charger from ATI come with a 7 lbs (=PSI) pulley.Thereare 9 and 11 PSI pulleys available ie, for a given crank speed the compressor turns more pushing more air into the motor =more power.
Of course its not as simple as a pulley swap, when you go to miuch more power than a 7 psi ulley , you need bigger injectors, ECU reflash, fuel return system , y Pipe, highflow cats and other improvments to the way the engine is run,
That that costs $$.my 9 lbs pulley would cost me at least $3200 to do it right.
The GTR I seriously doubt will ever see the 13s
450-480 HP with projected weight under 3,100 pounds. Combine that with AWD and you should have mid to low 12 second runs.
Take a look at the 911 turbo for benchmarking. It's a mid 12 second car with mid 110x traps.
If you can be happy in the fact you think you will have the same caliber car as a GTR by slapping FI on a Z, more power to you.
There will be a world of difference between the two.
Imagine what Nissan could do without the cost cutting mission of the Z, that's the GTR.
It will be Nissans super car, the Z is a margin crunching everymans sports car.
No offense to the Z, but my supra turbo put up better numbers in every category in terms of handling. It may have an advanced suspension design, but the bounce is ridiculous. For all of its advacement id rather put some KONIS on there and have a smoother ride and improved handling.
450-480 HP with projected weight under 3,100 pounds. Combine that with AWD and you should have mid to low 12 second runs.
Take a look at the 911 turbo for benchmarking. It's a mid 12 second car with mid 110x traps.
If you can be happy in the fact you think you will have the same caliber car as a GTR by slapping FI on a Z, more power to you.
There will be a world of difference between the two.
Imagine what Nissan could do without the cost cutting mission of the Z, that's the GTR.
It will be Nissans super car, the Z is a margin crunching everymans sports car.
No offense to the Z, but my supra turbo put up better numbers in every category in terms of handling. It may have an advanced suspension design, but the bounce is ridiculous. For all of its advacement id rather put some KONIS on there and have a smoother ride and improved handling.
Just think about it.
You will need at least 450 hp to match the stock GTR's HP number.
You will need to lose probably 200 pounds, and you still won't be able to launch anywhere near as clean or fast as the GTR.
Once you can match a 996 twin turbo, then you may come close to matching the new GTR. Nissan is benchmarking the 911 turbo for the GTR, so that should give you the level you need to reach.
This is a supercar at an everyday price. Don't let the relatively cheap price fool you, this will be probably the most potent car under 100,000.00
You will need at least 450 hp to match the stock GTR's HP number.
You will need to lose probably 200 pounds, and you still won't be able to launch anywhere near as clean or fast as the GTR.
Once you can match a 996 twin turbo, then you may come close to matching the new GTR. Nissan is benchmarking the 911 turbo for the GTR, so that should give you the level you need to reach.
This is a supercar at an everyday price. Don't let the relatively cheap price fool you, this will be probably the most potent car under 100,000.00
How are you going to match this:
Take a look at the new M45. It has an updated version of the G/Z chasis. I forget the exact number, but it's somethign like 1,000x stiffer in the front then our chasis. The GTR will have an even more advanced chasis, using it's own code.
How can you match that?
How can you match the new ATTESSA AWD system going into the GTR.
You might be able to build up the engine, but do you think you can match the new engine, which has a block codesigned by COSWORTH RACING?
1/4 mile numbers you may be able to come close to, by spending 10k+, but in terms of everything else, the GTR is going to be worlds ahead.
How can you match the electric assist turbos, or anything else.
Here is some info from 7tune:
" Lets now have a look at the overall dimensions. The entire length of the next GT-R will be shorter than the R34 (4600mm) coming in at about 4500mm. Then the width! Our informer has jokingly said that the next GT-R will look like a Choro-Q! (a miniature toy car with ‘squashed’ proportions) We can expect the GT-R to be about 1900 to 2000mm wide, with a wheelbase of 2700m giving the GT-R a ‘forward cabin – short front overhang’ look, with large rear fenders reminiscent of the Porsche 911 Turbo used to be back in the late 1970’s. As for other cosmetic changes, there has been talk that Nissan will ‘remake’ the head lights and rear combination lights once again…
Moving on to the engine and driveline, development is really starting to move along. As has been reported on before, the next GT-R will use a 3.2L V6 motor-assist twin turbo engine rated at 480ps powering the rear wheels through a traditional RWD transaxle with the front wheels powered by electric motors controlled by an advanced 4WD controller even more sophisticated than the last version of Nissans ‘ATESSA’… but it seems like something new has happened?"
-The next GT-R will be lighter than the Fairlady Z/350Z., with the use of carbon and aluminum throughout the car, the next GT-R is destined to weigh in less than the Fairlady Z’s 1450kg. This should put any concerns about the GT-R being heavier due to the incredible amount of new systems and technology that’s slated to be included in the final package.
-Back in October last year, the next GT-R prototype was spotted at the Nurburgring old course and subsequently appeared on the cover of just about every car magazine around the world. The Nurburgring prototype completed only a single lap of the old course and was sporting a clever Infinti G35 disguise. The single lap was intended to test mechanicals, but the main focus was on testing a ‘semi-wet sump’ system which is much more practical than the original dry sump system that was planned. So the final decision is a semi-wet sump and we’ll update the details of this as soon as more information arises.
-Based on Getrag components, Nissan have developed their own sequential 7-speed gearbox for use in the next GT-R. More on this in our next update.
Take a look at the new M45. It has an updated version of the G/Z chasis. I forget the exact number, but it's somethign like 1,000x stiffer in the front then our chasis. The GTR will have an even more advanced chasis, using it's own code.
How can you match that?
How can you match the new ATTESSA AWD system going into the GTR.
You might be able to build up the engine, but do you think you can match the new engine, which has a block codesigned by COSWORTH RACING?
1/4 mile numbers you may be able to come close to, by spending 10k+, but in terms of everything else, the GTR is going to be worlds ahead.
How can you match the electric assist turbos, or anything else.
Here is some info from 7tune:
" Lets now have a look at the overall dimensions. The entire length of the next GT-R will be shorter than the R34 (4600mm) coming in at about 4500mm. Then the width! Our informer has jokingly said that the next GT-R will look like a Choro-Q! (a miniature toy car with ‘squashed’ proportions) We can expect the GT-R to be about 1900 to 2000mm wide, with a wheelbase of 2700m giving the GT-R a ‘forward cabin – short front overhang’ look, with large rear fenders reminiscent of the Porsche 911 Turbo used to be back in the late 1970’s. As for other cosmetic changes, there has been talk that Nissan will ‘remake’ the head lights and rear combination lights once again…
Moving on to the engine and driveline, development is really starting to move along. As has been reported on before, the next GT-R will use a 3.2L V6 motor-assist twin turbo engine rated at 480ps powering the rear wheels through a traditional RWD transaxle with the front wheels powered by electric motors controlled by an advanced 4WD controller even more sophisticated than the last version of Nissans ‘ATESSA’… but it seems like something new has happened?"
-The next GT-R will be lighter than the Fairlady Z/350Z., with the use of carbon and aluminum throughout the car, the next GT-R is destined to weigh in less than the Fairlady Z’s 1450kg. This should put any concerns about the GT-R being heavier due to the incredible amount of new systems and technology that’s slated to be included in the final package.
-Back in October last year, the next GT-R prototype was spotted at the Nurburgring old course and subsequently appeared on the cover of just about every car magazine around the world. The Nurburgring prototype completed only a single lap of the old course and was sporting a clever Infinti G35 disguise. The single lap was intended to test mechanicals, but the main focus was on testing a ‘semi-wet sump’ system which is much more practical than the original dry sump system that was planned. So the final decision is a semi-wet sump and we’ll update the details of this as soon as more information arises.
-Based on Getrag components, Nissan have developed their own sequential 7-speed gearbox for use in the next GT-R. More on this in our next update.
Intercooler are included in nearly all kits.ATI Procharger has intercooler ( remember if you get ATI you gotta buy a seperate timing solution, like a J&S), Vortech come w/ Intercooler now, HKS includes it.
The basic Stillend doesnt but its stage 2 comes with one.
Most of these kits retails from 5 to 6 k plus install (1-1.5k including tuning), but street prices have dropped well below retail. A couple of our sponsors are selling forced indcution klits for well under retail and usually still show the retail price on their website.
Fred..
PS: It says arlington WA in your sig? is that a typo? cuz if its arlington VA ,you should meet with our Baltimore group, we have meets all the time.
The basic Stillend doesnt but its stage 2 comes with one.
Most of these kits retails from 5 to 6 k plus install (1-1.5k including tuning), but street prices have dropped well below retail. A couple of our sponsors are selling forced indcution klits for well under retail and usually still show the retail price on their website.
Fred..
PS: It says arlington WA in your sig? is that a typo? cuz if its arlington VA ,you should meet with our Baltimore group, we have meets all the time.
I lust for the HKS ROTREX S/C
I think unless you are going to build up your engine, the turbo is pointless, unless your just such a turbo fan, you can't go either way
The great thing about the centrifugal s/cs which is everything but stillen, is it acts just like a turbo. So you have the turbo experience in the power band, but with less piping, and probably more reliability.
I think unless you are going to build up your engine, the turbo is pointless, unless your just such a turbo fan, you can't go either way
The great thing about the centrifugal s/cs which is everything but stillen, is it acts just like a turbo. So you have the turbo experience in the power band, but with less piping, and probably more reliability.
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