TT VS N/A: Intercoolers and Nitrous Compatibility

[gpelite]

Ok, I have a huge parts list of my TT conversion and this is what I have accumulated thus far. I would like the TT ppl out there to review my plan here and give me the low down on what problems I will see and compare their notes to what I have heard about each part of the conversion below. Please write as much as you see fit to get all points across. Anything is appreciated...

Apexi AFC to piggy back my ECU to adjust the air fuel ratio TT Spec InjectorsTT Turbos, wastegates TT Exhaust ManifoldTT Oil PanTT Oil Filter TreeNew downpipes and test pipesAir Fuel gaugeBoost GaugeAmps Gaugeoil cooler2 manual boost controllersIntercoolers and pipingSingle 35 psi BOVZex wet nitrous kit 25 - 100 shot adjustable

Nitrous Ok, yea, I know with compression being high as it is with turbos I should shut down the nitrous idea, but if you look at nitrous as a component to the turbos I think I should still run it. I have a Zex wet kit n remote bottle opener with purge valve. For those of you not familiar with Zex's wet kit, it comes with one nozzle to spray both fuel and nitrous together for a larger blast than nitrous alone (dry kit). I need to T off the fuel and nitrous and route a nozzle per throttle body since they need to be within a foot of the TBs. I wanted to run the 100 shot, well who doesn't, but I was thinking a 25 shot to help spool the turbos even with high compression would be admirable and really not forcing the N/A to do more of what it wasn't designed to do. The solenoid unit detects the throttle postion (its T'd off your sensor) and releases the shot at wide open throttle. I figure at a stoplight, to help spool, a 25 shot would be a little tick to spin the turbines enough to smite some punks. When ur wide open in 4th gear the 25shot won't push the engine too high plus if I set the boost at a safe level for the compression of 10.5:1 it will be lightly noticed neway and safe. How is my logic on this one guys? What is the highest shot I could run?

I bought this kit with the intention of not getting turbos, in case your wondering wtf am I trying to do here... I ran into a cheap turbo package and pounced on it.

Intercooler setupOk I got some outrageous claims that stock intercoolers are worth 700-800 dollars, and I refuse to pay a penny over 150 for em so I decided to make my own system. A bit extreme, maybe, maybe not cause there is something else I wanted to alter. Ok for my piping system I'm using 1.75in stainless steel bend tubing and connection hose clamps to connect everything. I tested the tubes and they are air tight, amazingly, and cheap as hell (2 bucks a tube at local shops, for about roughly 15inches I wanna say). The 1.75 fit in the stock TT intercooler hoses like a glove, and give a decent bend to accomodate the bay (I have my stock air box out so there is a lot of dead space too). My BOV and BOV pipe are rated at 35 psi max, since I figure I will not hit 35psi with the system with 10.5:1 compression anyway to be safe (I'm gonna run only moderate boost until I redo the engine), I want to mount the BOV before the Mass Air Sensor to eliminate the air problem of BOVs in the stock TT system. For instance a stock TT with BOVs thrown in dishes out air already calculated by the mass air censor to be in the pipes headed to the engine so you run rich. since I have a bracket for my high flow filter on the mass air censor now, I have a hose&clamps to adapt my BOV flange pipe infront of the mass air censor on that bracket. This should decrease but not eliminatethe rich conditions, and with the custom set up neway, I figure why not. This should work great. Here is an example with a ASCII diagram, since its a lot harder to explain. If a picture is worth a thousand words, this is about 500.. lol

ENGINE \ \ / / \ \ / / Mass Air |Sens.| ----air data to----ECU |-------| | | <--Clamp Hose | ^ |0( <---BOV and flange pipe | | <--Clamp Hose | | <--Y-Pipe splitter / / \ \ / / \ \ / / \ \Intercooler intercooler

Is this a ghetto system, I think it is, but its got all the esstentials and can handle my payload.

This is what I'm planning to do so far, but I would like any WARNINGS, compliments, or suggestions to guide me one way or the other on anything I mentioned.

Anyone doing a conversion with an N/A engine especially or a swap completely, contact me, I would like to hear more from you...

[evildky]

when dealing with a wet kit you direct multipoint foggers is the best and safest but expensive, and with the twin intak you'll need a minimum of 2 fogger nozels anyway, you'll want to place them in the plenumn just past the throttle bodies, the reason fo this is you don't want fuel and no2 mixture puddling outside your intake when the throttle blades snap shut, with a dry kit you's want to put the nozzles on the cold pipe coming from the intercoolers as this allows the most distance for the nitrous to cool the already cooled intake charge further and also allows it more room to mix with the incoming air charge, no2 and turbo can be deadly fro an engine, but if you keep the shot small and place your nozzles correctly you'll be ok, just don't get greedy like I did, you'll be rebuilding the motor

[WidebodyZ]

For starters you only need one boost controller t'd. Two would create uneven boost between the two banks and i highly recommend you shell out for an electronic rather than manual boost controller...there's a good chance you'll detonate from a boost spike or over boosting. Only those with experience with manual controllers (vast experience) should use them. The AFC isn't really needed to be honest with you...I've never owned one. Remember that with the NA motor it is higher compression. High compression turbo on stock pistons will only allow for wastegate boost. So getting a controller is even pushing it. Also, the NA doesn't have the same oil squirters as the TT. The NOS will blow your ish up. Trust me, it sounds like you're in over your head. Just stick with the gravy..or buy a used TT motor. I bet the used TT motor might even cost less. When I did my 2+2 TT swap over 5 years ago I just picked up a Japan TT motor and swapped it out for the NA and added an AVCR to control the wastegate solenoids. I used the NA harness with my swap. BTW, the A/F gauge won't do didly for you...might as well mount it on the passenger side for your chick to have something to entertain her. There's so much more i could write, but I'm at work.

[gpelite]

For starters you only need one boost controller t'd. Two would create uneven boost between the two banks and i highly recommend you shell out for an electronic rather than manual boost controller...there's a good chance you'll detonate from a boost spike or over boosting. ....

...BTW, the A/F gauge won't do didly for you...might as well mount it on the passenger side for your chick to have something to entertain her.

I heard boost spikes happen when you use a central single controller that is too far distanced for readings since the boost has to travel farther distance from the wastegate to be regulated. The time it takes for pressure to build in this longer travel causes spikes. The closer the controller is to the wastegate, the less the chance of any spike I reasearched... I was behind that as the whole issue with that intention. With two manual boost controllers at the same measurement of boost dialed in and same distance from wastegates it should be just as affective but... manual. Keep in mind I am using a wastegate --> to manual controller setup with no actuators. Note: I do not deny that they cannot get perfect even boost but an electronic controller still does not eliminate the problems from spiking with my setup. Although I am not the foremost authority on the AVCR, for my application with no actuators from the TT, it would be worse to have a foot of hose to a electronic controller then 2 inches of hose to a manual controller.

As for the Air Fuel Controller I purchased, I have TT spec 370cc injectors. You can't tell me that the N/A computer can detect the upgrade and resonably give fuel amounts to staisfy the 370cc spray do you? If that is so then I have underestimated the stock N/A ECU. I was told and AFC controller and gauge will allow me to tune my fuel system to accomodate the changes of fuel consumption needed by the turbo engine. The apexi VAFC will give me readouts on the fuel consumption and ratios so I will prevent detonation or running rich. The gauge, however powerless it may be to some, is the first warning light per say to detect this should I be driving and see a spike in the fuel system one way or the other. I was told a good AFC gauge will greatly aid in detecting how you run once you make changes specifically in forced induction, injector switching, and fuel pressure changes. With all I plan to do, I think that is at least one safety measure to keep on. Why do you you not like the AFC gauge widebody?

Also widebody I have another post on the compression issue, I didn't want to cram it all in this one post. Maybe you were incorporating your response all here? In any case, what kinda boost does an open wastegate give if you are serious that is all I can run. I thought an open wastegate can't do much so the boost controllers on low setting was my intention only until a formal rebuild or selling. If you see my arguement on the other post for compression, I would like your input against what I address there as counterpoints to the compression limits.

[gpelite]

with the twin intak you'll need a minimum of 2 fogger nozels anyway, you'll want to place them in the plenumn just past the throttle bodies, the reason fo this is you don't want fuel and no2 mixture puddling outside your intake when the throttle blades snap shut

I totally understand the logic there in what you mentioned. I have already a wet kit sitting here, so that is what I plan to keep since its, well, here. My question is even if the kit is activated by throttle sensor, as mine is, if I mount the nozzles outside the throttle body shouldn't I be ok? The Zex manual suggests 6-12 inches I believe from the TB for atomization to take affect properly and evenly incoporate that into the air stream before being used. This is because, I believe, because of nozzle design. The only way I could mount they behind the TB is to buy fogger nozzles meant for such a purpose and drill as you suggested. By then, I'd be drilling for 6. Wouldn't the "pooling" effect dissapate as the throttle is lifted with my throttle sensor trigger?

If the pooling is that much that even compared to a regular wet system triggered by button activated actuator my throttle sensor system cannot decrease pooling significantly, then I will consider the approach.

Also as Widebody mentioned, doing major nitrous is kinda irresponsible with N/A compression and turbos, and I agree, but what shot of nitrous would be safe with low boost and 10.5:1 compression. What are the highs and low shots numbers I could use? And for any N/A 90-96 300zx person out there, what shot of nitrous should be the maximum for any N/A user with that compression non-turbo?

btw your advice is appreciate evil

[evildky]

wet kits are best for direct multipoint, if zex says it's ok then who am I to argue but I learned a long time ago that nitrous and fuel mixed are a volitile mixture and you want them as close to the point of combustions as possible for maximum saftey, I'd save my money and get bigger turbo's and not fart with the no2 thats gonna need refills and only delivers small power boosts and risks the life of your engine

and widebody is right, there si no way to get 2 manual boost controllers perfectly in syny with each other and high boost levels on the N/A engine is risky especially with spray

[gpelite]

there si no way to get 2 manual boost controllers perfectly in syny with each other and high boost levels on the N/A engine is risky especially with spray

I mentioned until a rebuild or selling the car I will run low boost, so don't think me totally crazy. I respect the limitations of the N/A engine. Spray even at 25 shot won't help much per risk and hassle, point taken. Jury is still out with me seeing as I have the damn thing now.... ah well

However the manual controllers vs electronic, you can't regulate perfectly with electronic, I thought, as much as you can manual. Sure you get readouts but don't you get one mass readout per both turbos and adjust it as such? Aren't you adjusting the turbos by electronic boost control as if they were one? I've seen guys bend the rules with boost controllers like that. Since I don't have actuators and an N/A ECU the most and closest way to to adjust any boost is via manual controllers or a heavily priced electronic w/actuators. Since I plan to run low boost manual controllers( dialed in as best as I can) should be ok. I could do a simple pressure test and get the measurements before hooking them up everytime, how could that not ease the problem?

If we would say you can NEVER perfectly dial in manual boost that would be true, because two turbos will never put out the same boost even by a thousandths they will be off due to the variables produced after time has taken a toll on any engine; shaftpplay, piston wear, compression differences per piston, and so on. It happens. Therefore a electronic controller will suffer the same adverse effects. Also If you take in both turbos' boost measurements as one, that is the same as offsetting two manual controllers with different dialed in boost. One turbo could be producing less boost, but overall production could meet your controller's input parameters. This could lead to lop-sided prodcution and a overwork underwork affect on your turbos without detection for some time I imagine.

If there is a system that allows seperate measurements and accurate readings PER turbo, then I see how this could be avoided. I am not aware that there is such a system around, so I'm still questioning the arguement that manual controllers are hard to syncronize Vs and electronic controller

Open to info, so fire away if I missed something here, here to learn always

[WidebodyZ]

All you have to do is "t" the solenoids off equal distance from one another..it's how they are hooked up on all electronic controllers...including mine. (AVC-R)