Transmission fluid temperature.

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elwesso
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Heres something I posted on a forum... Good read... Take a look at it and tell me what you think......
elwesso wrote:
Im not here ot argue, but Ive read many posts on other forums that say its necessary to keep the trans fluid below 200 degrees..... And thats with an external cooler, sine the stock "heat exchanger" will really heat the fluid..... And not cool it to any extent...

So the question remains... And its probably the difference between me, as the consumer, and you as the engineer..... You design the cars to get thorugh the warranty period, and we maintain them to make it past that.. So the question remains, will the transmission last 60-100k (worst case) under most operating conditions for the warranty period? Yes most certainly, but will it last past 100k and still provide the necessary lubrication, no.. Thats why you drain the fluid and clean the filters...
My information comes from first hand experience over the past 33 years in engineering in the automotive industry....several of that specifically doing dedicated engine and transmission cooling testing. My background is not contained specifically to searching the internet for what all the other internet experts are feeding each other and regurgitating or reading lots of posts by people who do not know what they are talking about. The internet is one source for information...but take it with a large grain of salt in most cases.

Bull**** to the idea that cars are designed to just make it thru the warranty period then die. Absolute, unadulterated bull****. Period. Engineers design cars and componetry for life spans of 150K to 200K or futher. I have never, in 33 years in the industry, EVER heard anyone say or insinuate that anything should be just good enough to make it thru the warranty period. Your comment is pointless in that regard.

The idea of the trans oil staying below 190 F does not even pass the common sense test if you think about it for 5 seconds. The trans oil coming into contact with the engine coolant in the heat exchanger that most all cars have will heat the trans oil up to at least the temperature that the coolant is at....so trying to keep it below the level of the coolant temp is pointless.

Do you really think that the heat exchangers in the radiators do not cool the oil???? Why on earth would all the manufacturers put them on all the cars if they were not working or needed....???....duh. Another common sense test flunked. The oil actually does get much hotter than you suppose and it really does get cooled by the heat exchanger in the radiator even when the coolant is very hot. Under high trailering loads, when the engine coolant is 250 climbing a grade in Death Valley the trans oil is entering the cooler at 280-300 or more and is getting significant cooling from the radiator based heat exchanger.

Engine oil and trans oil is perfectly fine at temps approaching 300 degrees F. 212 F only gets the moisture out of the oil for sure. Trans oil can live forever in the 240-250 range. 280 , even for extended periods, is cake for modern trans oil.
Tech from another forum[/quote wrote:Some pretty smart and well educated doctorate level engineers developed the oil life monitoring algorithm for engine oil and trans oil and they know far more about it than your internet experts. The trans oil life monitor simply does not react to temps in the 250 to 260 range and starts to degrade the trans oil life incrementatally as the trans oil temp gets above 280-300 for extended periods of time.

The trans is perfectly capable of running to 100K with no oil change. Trans oil does not get exposed to contaminants and byproducts of combustion like the engine oil does. Plus, it is lubricating completley different components under completely diffferent operating regimes compared to an engine. Trnas oil operates as a hydraulic medium primarily and lubrication and cooling secondarily. The trans is perfectly happy with a "life time" fill unless heavy trailer towing or livery usage drives the temp up.

Your idea of the life being designed for 60K and that you are going to increase it to 100K by additional maintenance is ludicrous. I doubt that you even know what is going on in the trans that you are "helping" by changing the oil... This area is the common turf of internet experts. All they know about a car is changing the oil so they pontificate on that subject to extreme and figure it is the holy grail. The maintenance intervals prescribed by the manufacturers is the correct way to go.

It is amazing to me the logic that goes into some of these discussions. Somehow the manufacturers/engineers were smart enough to design/develop/validate/manufacture the car/engine/components but the dumb asses were not smart enough to provide the correct lube and maintenance requirements. Forget the idea of the oil life monitor and the recommended oil. Those guys don't know what they are doing.....LOL LOL LOL

Internet experts abound. Take care in which ones you believe. Your chart is like motherhood and apple pie. Hard to argue with....but it is basically off by about 50 or more degrees based on Dex3 modern trans fluid. Certainly nothing would go wrong with the trans oil if it was kept at the temps in that chart....LOL....but if you could keep the temps at those levels you could probably get away with lard in the trans...or mozola cooking oil or something.


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Jesda
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Is that from bbobynski?

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elwesso
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Yeah, and really, even though Q45tech is very knowledgeable, this is HARD to refute since he's been in the engineering business for 30 years..... And has designed engines and trannies.......

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Q451990
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This guy doesn't strike me as a 50+ y/o engineer that's been in the business for 30+ years... I don't know many 55 y/o guys saying "duh."

Like in all professions, there are "experts" on both sides of an issue... I'll put my money on the one who drives his Q like he stole it every day and had a transmission with 170+K on it.

Heath

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elwesso
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If you read his posts, youll see... He REALLY knows his stuff, nothing an internet queen could make up.....

Q45tech
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I'll be 57 the end of this month.

The coolant temp in a Q system is supposed to be 176F.....to a max of 194F LEAVING the heads

The in rad heat exchanger is on the output side of rad where hopefully the coolant is 170F-188F........the coolant must be 6F cooler than the desired engine output feeding thermostat.

Read your FSM......why is 176F mentioned so much.

Now aged and abuse radiators cannot hold this as new temperature, so the progression 176>180>185>190>195F.

Monitor your actual coolant temp as it flows out of the engine.

During the summer I data log many old Q to see what the cruise coolant and spike coolant temps are it will shock you the difference 181F > 210F after a few minutes stopped in traffic with AC on.

My super bigger rad and more volume [+10%] gives me precious minutes before the warning bell. All Q engines put out the same heat at idle rpm [varies with rpm]..........yet not uncommon to see 20F variances in 15 minutes stablized temperatures...........these are the ones that fry trannies.

The oem cooler is there to deal with the spike temps when TC slips on acceleration and the TC output is over 300F.

Q45tech
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Study just open thermostat [174F] to fully open thermostat [194F] so the mean would be 184F ..........perfect may be 180F.

My system is over cooling as in summer cruise [at 70 mph] I can get down to 174-176F [obviously thermostats are not perfect as to opening temp so each one will be different and change with age].

It's all about thermal reserve [heat sink capacity].

Obviously more cooling fluid [coolant, oil, ATF] adds temp spike reserve.

Mercedes/BMW/other use 40% more volume of coolant, atf, oil in their designs because many of their cars are sold in Middle East.

The extra benefit is you can almost double the change intervals......contaminents are spread out in volume.

10 quarts of ATF or coolant [6 quarts of oil] is way small for a V8.......16 pounds plus 10 extra to hold it .....weight saving but needs shorter intervals..........bigger transmission sump, rad and oil pan........the rear diff is small also as is PS [which really fries due to small cooler].....notice PS changes color fast!

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Jesda
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elwesso wrote:If you read his posts, youll see... He REALLY knows his stuff, nothing an internet queen could make up.....
I'll vouch for Bob. The man really knows his stuff, and has what seems like a hundred years of knowledge. His presentation style is nice and casual, so the rest of us laymen can figure it out without a degree in engineering.

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elwesso
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Dennis, how do you respond to him with his transmission fluid temps... HE is obviously less conservative than you are, in fact he says its good to get it above 200 degrees.....

q45roadwarrior
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Hey guys,I usually sit back and observe, but I have to speak up on this one. While I do not have the technical knowledge that some of you do, I have owned many cars in my 47 yrs(Four Q45's included).

Just by owning and observing these cars, along with stories from relatives and friends(conserning their car repairs, maintainance etc), it seems to me that Q45 Tech is the one I'd listen to.(Meaning no disrespect to the engineer) Q45 Tech and others like him on this forum have seen the Results of these highly knowledgeable engineers in the form of expensive repairs of cars hitting between 60k to 100k .

Even as a simple car enthusisast and consumer, it makes sense to me that enough heat for long enough periods will cook any liquid(Motor Oil, trans fluid,anti-freeze, ps fluid,etc).

I have no doubt that this "engineer" and others like him, are very intelligentand fine people, building some really amazing products......I just wonder how many repairs they've been envolved in, followed up by studying each make and model that shows problems.

Take for example the earlier Q45's with (chain guide issues, trans issues, front struts etc.), They were probably putting out the best product that they could possibly put out at that time, but simply looking back at the history of these cars would tell anyone that more aggressive fluid (all fluids) changes are required for using their product for more than the 60k warranty period.

This would apply to all other manufactureers, IMO.

Respectfully,Q45roadwarrior


desertson
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Most thermostats these days are designed to operate at 192F - 194F. The reason being is it allows for the best heat transfer characteristics. They are designed to have travel limits. It begins to open at 192F and only opens further depended on external comditions. If it is running all the way open there is other problem like clogged radiator or water passages, ect. If the operating temperature is less than 192F, the thermostat is not working properly. Sitting hot in traffic will make the thermostat open further but not necessarily and shouldn't be all the way open.

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Read the FSM specification on the 90-95 Q45 thermostat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IT is designed to start opening at 174F and be fully 100% open at 194F, so the Q coolant operates at roughly 10F COLDER than more modern OBD11 emission engines [post 95 engines]. A function of head design in the less stringent emission era.

Don't confuse this older design with something more modern [current].

True a hotter coolant is a tiny bit more efficient at cruise rpm [steady state].....less combustion energy lost to coolant [temperature differential].

But you must run an engine the way it was designed to run.........otherwise you are fiddling with the knock control mechanism.......and get summer knock from our inferior fuels.

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.c...4.pdf

The above will start you on your journey

desertson
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PLease don't accept one source as gospel. The FSM haves proven to be inaccurate many times, already! Do some research The temperature at which the thermostat is designed to open is called its rating, and may be stamped on the body. The 192 Degrees F thermostat begins to open at (you guessed it!) 192 Degrees F and is fully opened at +200 degrees F. Different engines use different temperature thermostats.

Some high range thermostats maintain engine operating temperatures above 200 degrees F. This causes the engine to burn up more pollutants and aids in emissions control. However the range for your thermostat depends on the type of your engine, load requirements, weather, and other variables.


DAEDALUS
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How profound. Pretty saucy for a guy with 2 posts! This is an Infiniti forum. There are lots of forums out there for other marques. If you indeed want to talk about Infinitis then realize that Q45tech probably knows more about how their subsystems function than anyone else in this country.Why would the thermostat begin to open at 192 if the ECU begins to retard timing at 195?

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Jesda
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Q45tech wrote:Don't confuse this older design with something more modern [current].You must run an engine the way it was designed to run.........otherwise you are fiddling with the knock control mechanism.......and get summer knock from our inferior fuels.
Good point.

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Oxidation is the main enemy of transmission fluid-and higher temps make it go faster. Normal transmission op temp of 210-230F is OK with light service and 50K changes probably. If heavy stop and go, Houston traffic, LOTS of A/C load--transmission oil temps soar to 250+. Life of the oil drops in half for every 18F temp rise. Big damn deal is that once a certain temp is reached (differs for each transmission model), plastic parts start creeping and reacting. This makes them hard nad leaky when the transmission cools down. A lot of new transmissions are 'melted down' by high speed runs up the 'grapevine' in LA. Lots more fail in the hot South if freeway speed traffic screeches to a stop for accidents and drivers do not shift to N and raise idle speed a bit. That said, >180,<230F are about ideal temp ranges. Excursions over 260F may be very costly. Oil won't fail immediately, but plastic parts may. Sump temps of 300F will result in very rapid transmission failure and oil oxidation.


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