Trans upgrade - anyone interested?

[ken in az]

I am working though a local shop here in Tempe AZ in getting a new Valve Body upgrade to go through for the m35 and m45. This kit will provide faster shifts, firmer shifts under wide open throttle, smooth light throttle shifts, and technically will allow more power holding and longer transmission life due to the VB providing faster firmer shifts which means less slippage, less heat build up, and less wear on the clutch packs and bands inside the transmission.

I'll be the first to have the kit installed in the next coming weeks and I'll report back.

Mods, I'm NOT trying to advertise and I have no connection to the shop so I'm not selling anything but currently there is no support for these cars and this place may be our only option for a trans upgrade. If I over stepped the r&r's then please let me know or delete the post as it was not my intention to do so.

thanks!

[szh]

Mods, I'm NOT trying to advertise and I have no connection to the shop so I'm not selling anything but currently there is no support for these cars and this place may be our only option for a trans upgrade. If I over stepped the r&r's then please let me know or delete the post as it was not my intention to do so.

Understood. I'll let it stay for the moment ... let us know how it works out.

Z

[tytamto]

What is the cost of such upgrade?

Even though this is my first auto transmission car, I understand the benefits of the upgrade. Anyone looking for more power should consider strengthening their transmission as well, and the VB upgrade is the cheapest and easiest way of doing it.

Does this shop that you speak of have a good reputation? IPT is a place I heard a lot of good things about... but they are in NJ. What shop is it?

[M45Caliber]

Ken AZ -- M45Caliber here. I LIVE in Tempe -- what shop is this AND will this work on the '03 - '04 M45's as well? I might do the VB AND add a trans cooler at the same time.

[ken in az]

Ken AZ -- M45Caliber here. I LIVE in Tempe -- what shop is this AND will this work on the '03 - '04 M45's as well? I might do the VB AND add a trans cooler at the same time.

Sweet! Yeah we should definitely talk more but I don't want to turn this thread into anything other than a results thread.

[M4T5]

Sweet! Yeah we should definitely talk more but I don't want to turn this thread into anything other than a results thread.

Is this something that we can all do, or does a professional shop have to perform this?Also, can anyone tell me what makes the G35's transmission shift so much better than our M's transmission? Aren't the 5-speeds used in both the same trannys?

J

[ken in az]

M4T5 This isn't like installing an exhaust, intake, coolant bypass, etc etc.. but at the same time it isn't rocket science either. I can bet that there are plenty of rocket scientist that don't dare touch their car - lol

Will i be the one installing this on my car - yup! is it simple? Heck no! But I can tell you that if it works....this will open the door for forced induction after UpRev gets done with my ECU.

I really didn't want to get to deep into the how and how much so I'll leave it at that for now. Hell, the thing could blow up my transmission and all this would be for nuthin. I just wanted to see if anyone really cared about this for their car and to let them know that someone is doing something for them that understands performance minded individuals and what they want. Now if we can get that annoying torque management out of the stock ecu that would be killer and maybe we could tweak the tires on a 1-2 shift. wouldn't that be nice

There is an M35 out there built by Vinney Ten in NY that is running 13.08 ET's on a stock transmission. If that can be done then these trans can easily manage that especially with a vb upgrade.

[ken in az]

Is this something that we can all do, or does a professional shop have to perform this?Also, can anyone tell me what makes the G35's transmission shift so much better than our M's transmission? Aren't the 5-speeds used in both the same trannys?

J

M4T5 - 99% sure why the G35 feels the way it does.

#1 the G makes less torque, this can allow the transmission to feel like it shifts faster because there is less slippage.#2 Less torque from the engine means less torque management from the ECU so the engine feels more responsive because there is less computer intervention.

Yes they use the same RE5RO5A 5 speed transmission but the G uses a different TCM with different programming to match the torque curve and higher RPM of the VQ35 engine as well as different gear ratio's inside the trans and in the rear differential.

The G35 also uses a different torque converter with a higher stall to bring the engine into it's optimum torque band from zero and durring wide open shifts.

I haven't been able to acertain when the lock up occurs of either cars (M or G) but I have a feeling that the G is given a lockup sooner than the M under wide open. Lock up gives a direct drive to the engine with no slippage which means better power transfer due to less energy lost heating up the trans fluid unlocked.

I'm driving a 2008 G35 today as my M is in for service and I definitely picked up on the differences right away. To me it was night and day the differnces between the 2 cars. I really want to get into the 09 G37 and see how it compares as well since all the reviews are off the charts for it.

And on a side note I just asked my service tech what the plans were with the M for the next years and he said they aren't doing anything for the next year (2010) wich I find really hard to beleive but with today's economy anything's possible.

[M4T5]

Like I have posted in the past, with an experienced tuner, the tuning alone for the transmission will unlock better performance times for the M's. That's without the modified valve body. I really wish your M project would have started with the tuning alone first. Then from there move into the VB mod. This would have given the average person a better perspective on what to expect from just the tuning alone.

Ken, does your car already have an aftermarket exhaust system? Sorry, I forgot.Are you going to leave the air intake to OEM specifications for all the tuning?Sorry for all the Q's.... I just want to know what the tuning alone for the M45 will give us in performance increases. I've been waiting for these results.....still waiting.....Get 'R' Done already!

J

[ken in az]

Sorry so long to reply the posts on this bord tend to get lost. I have a hard time tracking them at least.

From what I have discussed with uprev and any other tuner out there, there is no tuning for the transmission. It is only a VB upgrade that is available.

From what I have heard is the TCM is unhackable and only the dealer can perform regular factory updates. That is why "your" VB has to be used and you can't just take one off the shelf and use it. The CAN bus system communicates with the TCM and by which tells the ECU what to do to the engine functions. Apparently there is alot of programming variables and it's different from any other vehicle. UpRev is waiting on getting a few more Dealerships set up as "Pro Tuners" which they hope will get them some factory contacts in japan to help unlock more features from thes ECU's. From what they said this effects more than just the TCM, it also affects the Throttle control as that they cannot eliminate the feature from the ecu which means you can't install a cable throttle linkage in it's place. If you do the engine won't run. Also they cannot match the linear movement of the throttle pedal to the throttle plate, they can only maximize the fields that control the throttle giving the user the closest representation of direct throttle control.

what I'm trying to say is that these ecu's are very complex and transmission tuning is not on the table from anyone at the moment. I've been over all the g35, 350z, and titan/armada websites and they are all in the same boat. only a physical VB upgrade is the way to get there.

A good thing is that it'll be completely invisible to the dealer so technically it still will be a warrantable item.

Ken

[szh]

Sorry so long to reply the posts on this bord tend to get lost. I have a hard time tracking them at least.

You can put a reply in here and mark it with the option to send you an e-mail when someone replies from that point on (I think that works without just a specific reply to your post that is) ...

Z

[ken in az]

I've seen that option....I guess I'll open a new email account for this site to use it, my current email addy gets blasted with useless dribble so I hardly check it anymore - lol

thanks

[M4T5]

Well...here is a question several others and I have been waiting to hear about.

Obviously UpRev has done some tuning on the M's. What has been the final tuning results thus far?06 & up M45 power increases??06 & up M35 power increases??I would have figured this would have been available for the public by now. Also, are you going to do the VB upgrade yourself ken? That is too bad the transmission cannot be tuned by ECU tuning. That will be a great break through when that does happen. If the trans could be adjusted by tuning, we would really see some performance increase. I'm sure the VB upgrade will increase the performance, but I would like to see some before and after 1/4mi times for this mod. Who has experience with this mod on the M35/ M45's?

Come on Ken, you started this! Give us some answers please!

J

[M4T5]

Bump!! Ken, I'm dying to know this info....I'm sure many others are too!!

J

[ken in az]

Obviously UpRev has done some tuning on the M's. – Nope, they haven’tWhat has been the final tuning results thus far? – haven’t done it yet06 & up M45 power increases?? dunno06 & up M35 power increases?? dunnoI would have figured this would have been available for the public by now. A lot of us haveAlso, are you going to do the VB upgrade yourself ken? Yes I amThat is too bad the transmission cannot be tuned by ECU tuning. That would make life a lot easier that’s for sureThat will be a great break through when that does happen. I doubt it ever will but we can only hope and prayIf the trans could be adjusted by tuning, we would really see some performance increase. I'm sure the VB upgrade will increase the performance, but I would like to see some before and after 1/4mi times for this mod. I don’t think you’ll see much difference from stock since it doesn’t increase the power of the engine, only increases the transmissions capacity to hold/make more power. It might shift a little quicker possibly giving you a tenth or two, but probably not significant at stock power levels.Who has experience with this mod on the M35/ M45's? No one

Come on Ken, you started this! Give us some answers please I am trying my best, the economy is in the crapper right now, a lot of tuning shops are going under, the feds and state are making it more difficult to mod cars with their laws, and no one with these cars give a crap about performance except a few. I have some things in the works right now as well but since I am only one person and don’t have access to mass production, I am limited to what I can make myself which means if I make it the cost will be more than anyone is willing to spend.

A custom airbox to incorporate a high flow cone filter with a velocity stack that has the benefits of both the short ram intake design and the cold air intake designs as well. I have a friend that has access to a rapid prototype machine that can build and test a product straight out of thin air….well it’s thick liquid actually, but it’s pretty durn cool.

To my knowledge there is nothing documented for ecu tuning on an M45, with my discussions with UpRev they have said that my ecu is the first M45 ecu that they will be tuning. COBB tuning also does not have any applications for the M45. Technosquare has never tuned an M45, they have tuned an FX45 for the old VK45DE 2003 – 2005 but nothing for the 2006 and up VK45DE, they do support the M35 though. I have heard that they are not the greatest tuners for any application even if they did have an application for our car.

I plan on tuning with 3 different stages, one stock, one with full exhaust no secondary catalytic converter and intake, and one with headers and full exhaust High Flow Primary catalytic and no secondary catalytic with the intake, and if I can convince my dyno guy I’d like to add a tune to accommodate for electric cutouts directly out of the headers pre catalytic converter but I haven’t asked him yet. To do the stock tune and the full exhaust tune will be easy since he uses a dynopack dyno so the car will be lifted in the air a bit anyway so changing the exhaust will be a cakewalk as long as I wear gloves. I’ll have those numbers first but the header tune may take a while.

The headers I haven’t figured out yet, but I have a feeling that they will yield quite a bit in the power department. The stock headers are complete crap and I am amazed that they make as much power as they do. I have shoved my head up in the M’s engine cradle and it doesn’t look too bad to change the headers out. The area that they fill honestly looks like the header tubes from a JBA Titan header would fit it’s just that we have round exhaust ports and they have oval ports on the head. The flange bolt spacing is exactly the same though so potentially we could call and ask them to make a set with round ports or we could buy the titan header and hack off the flange that it comes with and add out own, but that means we have to have a header flange made so I’m working on that also. Another option would be to modify the header flange from oval to round, but I think that would be too much work.

I’ve contacted JWT for camshaft upgrades and they said that they do have the cam blanks to work for our engine but they do not have a profile for it since they only made one set of cams for a race only application that would not work on a street engine due to valves hitting the pistons. They did say that if they got a commitment for 10 people at $1200 a pop upfront that they would make a cam for us, but these cams would need a Tune to work and seeing how nobody even wants that I find it hard to believe that they’d want the cams.

I think that we are a conundrum here where the car feels sufficiently fast from the factory and the car appeals to the demographic that think this car has the most power they will ever need which no one feels the need for any aftermarket support. That coupled with the fact that there are 3 times more G35’s on the road it is probably not a sound marketing move to start selling products for a smaller number of vehicles in a slower market.If you are a die hard like me you will find a way to modify your car to be the best. Bolt on isn’t good enough for me, never has been, never will. My mods will make more or equal power than any other vendor because I don’t have a penny pincher accountant to save a few pennies here and there on a product run of 10,000 parts. My mods are more closely related to what you would expect from a race team. I have determined the name of my car – Project Monster 45 and as soon as UpRev cracks my ecu, it will begin.
Modified by ken in az at 6:12 PM 2/4/2009

[ken in az]

bump as I made it a little easier to read...sorry I did a copy paste from word and the formatting didn't carry over

[M4T5]

Wow, you seem to have some plans for your ride. Unfortunately I don't think I would do the cams at this time. Sounds like a great thought!Would definitely consider the headers (if you find a set to work correctly) and the ECU tuning. I would also like to know how your cold air kit design works out as well. I would do that too. Your design concept describes the Volant design. I used their kit with the ram air tube on my previous 05' Silverado SS. I didn't do much off the line, but could tell a little difference at upper mid to high RPM's and would come on even stronger at speeds above 70mph (hince the ram air tube). I miss that truck too.... I screwed it up by not planning my mods correctly. Word of advice: Don't think you can make your engine produce 700+ HP at the fly and expect your drivetrain to handle it the same way the engine did! Yes, my stock 6.0L GM engine made that much power....with the help of a Magnacharger and diff. cam. Everything from the engine back all took on heavy catastrophic carnage! Lesson LEARNED! Then the truck was sold, I got married, a Mortgage, and an M45. Now my play days are put on hold......for a long while I'm sure. My wife will be opening up a business, and then kids to come during that time or shortly there after..... I'm doomed for a while!

J

[ken in az]

Finalizing the details right now....and I just found something really cool - even though I don't recomend this as a DIY, you can order the kit from an online vendor for $295. I don't know if they are a supporting vendor so I don't know if it'd be ok to post the link, plus I have to install it on my car to make sure it works, but if you really want it PM me.

Again, I have nothing to do with the online shop and it's not even listed for our car, but it should work.

****Edit, they just raised the price literally an hour ago!!!! $295 Doh!
Modified by ken in az at 2:32 PM 2/5/2009

[ken in az]

Just ordered it, should be here next week!!

BTW - I confirmed with them that this kit works on the 08 350z which has the rev matching downshift feature for their auto....so theoretically it should work for us.

I'm not 100% sure an oil cooler is required when adding the kit, but it definitely couldn't hurt so I'm tossing the idea around to install one at the same time or wait till the VB is fully bled before adding it which takes about a week....and if anyone here decides they want to DIY then you have to wait at least a week before driving it hard.

PS: if you do decide to DIY and you mess it up it isn't my fault cause i told ya so

[maxnix]

I am working though a local shop here in Tempe AZ in getting a new Valve Body upgrade to go through for the m35 and m45. This kit will provide faster shifts, firmer shifts under wide open throttle, smooth light throttle shifts, and technically will allow more power holding and longer transmission life due to the VB providing faster firmer shifts which means less slippage, less heat build up, and less wear on the clutch packs and bands inside the transmission.

Doesn't the TCU for the RE5 retard timing during shifts like the RE4 on the G50 Q45? This was done in part to extend transmission life. "Faster firmer" shifts is not necessarily desirable if the transmission, especially clutches, are not designed for it. When one considers the RE5 was designed primarily for the VQ series and toughened up for the VK torque. Why the LS could beat or tie the F50 Q45 in acceleration because the ratios were unchanged from those ideal for the V6.

Just not sure what will be accomplished with this without changing TCU programming.

Please, no more fantasizing about "ram air" effects at 70 mph. 200 mph maybe, but not 70 mph.

The cams with a retuned ECU sounds likd the best deal, but real performance gains do take money. JWT has a good history with this on the VQ.

[ken in az]

I can't explain it all, but if you spent more than 15min reading about transmission upgrades then you'd be able to answer your own questions. Not being rude but this board - and others....are filled with people that say this that and the other without taking 5 minutes to read into it and even have the balls to try. then the people that try things out and they don't work dismiss them as not being worth it just because they have no basic knowledge of how an engine works nor the desire to figure out why.

Trust me, a vb upgrade is by far one of the most benefitial things a guy does to his automatic car.

And where did the ram air comment come from, you tring to insinuate something I am way more than a bench racer and I don't start threads just to start threads, I have a desire to spread knowledge. It is what my profession is and it's what I like to do on any board. I've built plenty of cars to over 450rwhp diesels to over 1100lbs or tq. pretty much anything that has wheels and an engine I'm into and can modify. I've been asked to be on Formula Atlantic race teams for my knowledge of how to make horsepower. Monday I'm going over to get the port spacing and bolt holes traced out to make the header flanges from a water jet machinist. I'm having a custom airbox made with a rapid prototype machine.

I just wanted to know who you are talking to when you bring up some silly ram air comment like that ok again I am not taking offence nor trying to give attitude, just want to stop anything before it gets started.

[M4T5]

LOL...well that silly ram air comment was tossed over to me actually. I have already been through treads and info about ram air effects. Will it create positive pressure at speeds under 100mph.... I doubt it. That was not what I was saying Max. I said you could tell a difference at speeds over 70mph with the ram air tube than compared without. Unless you owned the same truck as I did and the same cold air kit I did, then who are you to judge. I called it out the way the truck responded. Did I ever say it was a drastic difference? No. It was subtle, but it was more responsive at higher speeds. Hell, the opening was about 8"x 6" flared opening. It is going to catch some air.

You may or may not believe me on this either..but what the hell. Not sure if you are familiar with the Volant air box design or not. It has a large opening on the side that meets the fender opening and another 3" round port hole in the very bottom of the box. That is the ram air port. You could not achieve ram air with the large side opening in the air box. I then screwed a plastic cover over the hole of the large side opening to only allow the air from the ram air tube. This did make a difference at higher speeds. If you don't believe me, try it out yourself. Then again, you may not even believe in yourself.....so never mind.

J