TRADE IN'S

[CALGARY]

1 MORE QUESTION. THIS IS MY FIRST NEW CAR BUY. I WAS TOLD BY A FEW PEOPLE THAT THIS IS SUCH A POP. CAR AND I DOUBTFULLY BE ABLE TO HAGGLE MUCH. I TRADED IN MY 92 FORD EXPLORER XLT (FEW PROBLEMS AND A MB SAFETY, I'M IN ALBERTA NOW) THEY GAVE ME 500 FOR A TRADE, MY CAR SHOULD BE HERE IN 1-2 WEEKS, CAN I HAGGLE ON THE TRADE NOW OR AM I SCREWED? MY THOUGHT IS THAT I CAN'T....THIE VERSA IS SO POPULAR THAT I CAN'T THREATEN TO WALK AS THEY COULD SELL TOMORROW. ANYBODY OUT THERE WITH AN OPINION OR SOME TIPS?

[MinisterofDOOM]

I wouldn't say you can't haggle. You certainly won't be able to talk them down to a ridiculously low price or threaten to walk, since they know they have more buyers who will pay more than you will in that instance. But I wouldn't give up completely on talking the price down.

Welcome to NICO by the way! Glad you found us. Go easy on the caps lock, though, okay?

[CALGARY]

I know, I know. I'm working and it's a pain switching back and forth. Laziness dontcha know. I'm not looking for a massive amount for my trade, maybe a couple of hundred more than the 500 they have offered....

[MinisterofDOOM]

Argh, you know what...

I somehow missed the words "on the trade."I read the post thinking you were asking if you'd be able to talk them down on the price of the Versa, not haggle up the price of the Explorer. Sorry about that.

Honestly, if you want my opinion on the matter: don't trade the explorer in to the dealer. You can almost always get more for it from a private buyer. It'll take a bit more work to sell, but it will be worth it.

We actually have a dedicated car-buying advice forum where people who actually work in the car sales business can offer their advice. That forum is likely the best bet for this type of question.

[versabundus]

The minister is right. Sell it on your own. Put it up for $1500 . Most likely someone will offer $1000. "Gee, I don't know." "Oh all right, I'm not very good at this"

[proxim2020]

I agree 100%, you can get what you want by selling it yourself. If all you're looking for is a few hundred dollars, you may be able to haggle with them to get that little bit more. If it falls through, you can list it and sell it yourself. I'm sure you'll find a buyer.

As far a haggling on the car price, even though that wasn't your question, there's still a slim chance. The V doesn't have much of a markup between the invoice and MSRP, so not many dealers will bother. But it's still possible to get a few hundred $ off. I know because I've done it. If you hint at that you're looking for a dealership that will be able to provide all your post sale needs, they will be more inclined to shave a little bit off. They know they can make it up and more in post sale work.

[CALGARY]

Wow,

Thanks for all the help everyone! I tried selling privately and not 1 call. I just want rid of it and even though the trade is not worth much Calgary has (I have heard) very stringent out of province standards for safety's so maybe that's why no bites. I'm going to talk to my dealer lady and see if they can give me a pity 1-200 more just so I feel like I have "won"

[MIdnkight-lude]

i own a 95 prelude before this. with close to 120k miles. the dealer said they woudlnt give me **** on it. i end up selling it privately for 3.3k because it was in great condition, new tires and all the matiences done. aka it only needed oil change, tire roation, and air filter change every so often.

[gottafly]

You should probably cease dealing with the dealership you are mentioning and start again. Here's a great website that covers all the do's and don't's of car buying.

http://www.carbuyingtips.com

It's a US site, but most of the info crosses the border and the author even has a section about car buying in Canada. Due to the nature of the car business, you are in a psychological war as soon as you enter the arena. The summary of the main advice is:

a. Sell your used car privately if at all humanly possible - you will never get as good a deal from a dealer as from a private sale.

b. Don't ever pay MSRP by falling for sales propaganda. Pay the $40 to a service like CarCostCanada.com to get the dealer invoice and other info. I did and was able to negotiate a price several hundred dollars below MSRP, including all the extra profit included in so-called "admin fees" and "registration programs". Knowing the dealer invoice price helps you determine the actual dealer cost and gives you a point to negotiate up from, instead of trying to go down to an unknown point below the MSRP.

c. Start by negotiating a price for the car, don't talk about whether you are going to pay cash, finance or lease, or even about a trade in until the price is settled.

d. Don't forget about holdback - if the dealer has to order a car from the manufacturer for you, he keeps all the holdback as extra profit. Exploit that to drive their markup down while concealing the fact that you know holdback exists. e. Always be prepared to walk out and don't feel bad about haggling over a couple hundred dollars - it is your money after all. If they are willing to lose a sale over a small amount - let them do it and deal with someone else.

[marleyfan]

All of that is very good advice but neglects to factor in supply and demand. Demand for this car is higher than supply. That tips the power balance in favor of the dealer if that is the car you REALLY want. If we are talking about an S model that the dealers all have sitting on the lots then that tactic will work but if it is an SL that nobody has then you pretty much have to bite the bullet. Some dealers may be willing to wiggle but most wont. Can't hurt to try though. The last piece of advice is be prepared to walk away. In this case you may have to look at a different vehicle. Of course you could always decide that the Versa is actually WORTH what they are asking.

[kc5f]

Without getting too PC, are there any Mexicans around Calgary? They really like pre-1997 Fords, as Fords are easy to work on and they are allowed to bring vehicles over 10 years old into Mexico.

My dealer didn't even want to make an offer on my 1996 Probe because it had 240,000 miles on it, and I hated to see it sold for parts since it still ran well. I sold it to my Mexican neighbor for $500 and get to see it in his drive every day. He loves it!

[gottafly]

Hi Marleyfan,

I guess maybe I'm a cheap bastard, but I approach car buying as an entertaining challenge, and at the end of the process, I want to feel like I've at least come out tied with the dealer. I would never let a salesperson think I believed him about limited supply, even if it was real. This limits your ability to bargain. If you are serious about buying and making a good deal, they will recognize this and keep the sweet talk to a minimum. I showed them my online dealer invoice quote and that changed the atmosphere of the session immediately. I ended up paying pretty much what I thought I should - severl hundred below MSRP - including extra charges. They may make a few fewer dollars on the sale to you, but it is still one more sale to chalk up - and they can always sell another car to the guy who would have bought yours for MSRP.

Remove the expectation from the dealer that you concern yourself with any supply problems they may or may not have - just talk price on a car, that may or may not exist at that time. The dealer I ended up working with had several SL models on the lot too - tried to upsell me to one, but I wanted an S with auto, ABS and VOP, that's it, that's all. Of course that was an uncommon trim level according to the salesman, so no matter what you want to buy, they will try to create the expectation of difficulty for you to make you pay more. If there might be delays in delivery, negotiate a loaner car to keep until they deliver - they will work faster on your behalf that way, instead of enjoying the benefit of your deposit for an extended period. They can't sell the loaner either until they give you your car - more motivation still. If there is no incentive to hurry up on delivery, you will wait for your car to come from Japan, and they will collect all the holdback, no effort required on their part, apart from soothing you during phone calls. Otherwise, they might work for you harder, finding your car from another dealer who has it in stock, perhaps sacrificing some of the holdback in the process to get your sale completed.

Although these cars don't have huge markups like luxury cars and SUVs, there is still about $1000-$1300 markup over dealer invoice on a Versa, depending on the trim level. Additionally, if you consider the fairly generous holdback of 3% of total dealer invoice ($450~$600) available from the manufacturer if the car has to be ordered for you, the dealer stands to make an approximately 10% profit over his cost, if you pay MSRP - this is excessive. This is before you take into account your ability to negotiate away the hundreds of dollars of costly and mostly useless extras such as "admin fees", "registration programs", "security etching" and the like. I work towards an offer that gives them 5-7.5% profit and try to hold firm on that. If the car is actually in demand, you may have to move closer to higher end of that range. If they are trying to move you to a car that is physically there on the lot, they may bargain harder with you if they won't be making much from holdback.

Making a break for the door to think about things is a great way to get the salesperson to demonstrate some flexibility, in return for keeping you there. Nothing wrong with playing one dealer off against another either. Lowest price wins.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with the Versa we bought, it was our top choice out of the usual suspects, but I wouldn't have paid any price for it.

Besides, the negotiating process can be fun and even a bit theatrical if you are so inclined. If you're going to spend this kind of money, you should try to enjoy yourself if you can.

[CALGARY]

This is very un PC of me, but I really want to take a man in with me to haggle. I REALLY want and need this car. I'm sharing with my roomate and it is not going well.

Those are alot of great points everyone brought up (especially you gottafly) unfortunately.....

-Calgary has nothing on their lots of what I want (everything is being ordered in.) I called every dealer and they confirmed that supply is low, they never expected this demand.

-almost everything that is unsold has a tan interior, I have a dog, this is a no go

-I wish I could walk away and start over but I re-ordered once and the wait has almost been unbearable

-The intrest rates have dropped from 8.10 to 5.9 and i don't have to make a payment for 90 days (I probably will though) with the int. drop I can pay it off a full year sooner

-Is there anythign I can do now that the car is on it's way, it it possible to still negotiate?

-tell me about this hold back

Thanks for your continued help

[gottafly]

Hi Calgary,

Since you have put down your deposit and have a car on the way, there's probably not much you can do - you have to abide by the agreement. All you might be able to do is to appeal to the salesperson's desire to maintain some goodwill with you and prevent you from badmouthing them to your friends. You could try for a loaner (likely one of their more undesirable used cars) to bridge the gap until delivery - citing unreasonable delay in delivery as justification. Making a scene and demanding your deposit back so you can go buy a Honda Fit (that you can, of course, get straightaway) or something like that may be a useful opening gambit to get you to your desired outcome (which you keep to yourself at the start) of a loaner car, so you can at least get around. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. If demand is so hot, they should have no problem turning around and selling your car to someone else, right? You have to carefully balance your ability to bluff with their desire to keep in your good graces, because they could simply freeze you out, hold you to the sales agreement and dismiss any potential loss of goodwill or future sales with you. Of course, you really have nothing to lose by trying.

Holdback is an incentive given to dealers by the manufacturer to get cars on the lots to display and use for test drives - also helps keep the product moving out of the factory and speeds up delivery times to buyers. The dealers buy the cars on credit from the manufacturers and sell them again to you. They couldn't keep much of an inventory on hand if this arrangement wasn't available to them. The manufacturers sweeten the deal by offering a percentage (usually 2-3% of invoice or MSRP depending on the manufacturer) rebate on the dealer invoice for the car that declines to nothing after normally 90 days, after which they also have to make payments to the manufacturer's financial arm. If the dealer sells you a car he ordered for you from the manufacturer, then he keeps all the holdback as profit. If the car is sitting on the lot for a while, then the dealer will pocket less of the potential maximum amount. Dealers don't want you to know about holdback and it's probably best not to bring it up during negotiations, just use it to calculate your offer accordingly.

Best of luck.

[drummernamedpat]

My dealer was going to give me $1000 for my 97 Nissan Pickup w/ 150,000+ miles, a bent axle, completely dented bed (deer ran into me), scratched paint (and one rust spot), a bad blower motor, a "painted" dash (I started to sand it to smooth it out and then got hit by a deer and gave up, so I spray painted it and it was crappy looking). I was still able to talk them up to $1500 for the truck, so it is always worth a try even if you are sealed in on having to trade the explorer at this point.

[proxim2020]

This is very un PC of me, but I really want to take a man in with me to haggle. I REALLY want and need this car. I'm sharing with my roomate and it is not going well.

Those are alot of great points everyone brought up (especially you gottafly) unfortunately.....

-Calgary has nothing on their lots of what I want (everything is being ordered in.) I called every dealer and they confirmed that supply is low, they never expected this demand.

-almost everything that is unsold has a tan interior, I have a dog, this is a no go

-I wish I could walk away and start over but I re-ordered once and the wait has almost been unbearable

-The intrest rates have dropped from 8.10 to 5.9 and i don't have to make a payment for 90 days (I probably will though) with the int. drop I can pay it off a full year sooner

-Is there anythign I can do now that the car is on it's way, it it possible to still negotiate?

-tell me about this hold back

Thanks for your continued help

Here's the important part. If you signed a buyers agreement, you're pretty much stuck. Everything's set in stone. Basically the deal has already been negotiates and agreed upon. All that's left for you to do is pay and drive off with the car. If all you did was put down a deposit and signed something like a receipt, you're in luck. A deposit would just hold the car for you. You have all legal right to take back a deposit at anytime as long as you didn't sign something forcing you to buy.

As far as negotiating, it's going to be tough. Especially for the Americans. The markup on a S is only $485 and the SL is $561. I'm not sure about the difference between MSRP and invoice for the Canadians. When I negotiated my deal, the dealer had 3 V's on site he was trying to push. When you add all the options, I got pretty close to invoice and $400 below MSRP. Now they can't keep them there and virtually every car is an order. For you Cad's, the stock is very low and wait times on orders appears to be going up. This equals not much negotiating power. Even if you don't show concern about wait times and limited supply, it's going to be hard to negotiate with someone who has easy access to the regional and national numbers. They know that for every person who comes in for the bargain there's at least 2 more people who will pay MSRP just to get in one. I'm not trying to be a gloomy Susan, but it going to be tough getting money off. It's really hard for beggars to be choosy, but it's possible.

[CALGARY]

I guess the bottom line is I really want it, I don't have the time to walk away and I reeeely like the car. I was going to get a Civic or a Fit but the Fit took to long to deliver and now it's more $$ than the Versa. There are tons of Civic's around but the lease payment was what I'm paying for a finance monthly payment and at the end I own it, with the Civic I would of had an 8K buy out at the end. The only thing the Civic had that I really liked was free oil changes for 60 month's and honda has a better (longer) warrenty included with the car. I really like the Hatch and the Nissan's are more comfortable than the Honda's (did you know that on a base model Civic they use less padding on the seats that a top of the line trim? Weird eh?)

I have learned alot, wish I had found this site before I bought, let's hope someone can learn from my ignorance. IOne of my co-workers has bought a new car and his dad has a friend that's a dealer and he said mark up is so low that there's not alot of room to haggle these days, not like way back when. If I in the end feel really hosed I'll sell and as they are in such limited supply maybe I can soak a future buyer!