Torsen/Helical or Clutch LSD for AutoX?

Post by **float_6969** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:18 pm

I just happened upon a VERY good deal and have a decision to make. I just purchased what was supposed to be a VLSD from a CA18DET Silvia. I wanted that unit in particular because of the 4.364 gearing. (Plus I've got a CA swap and the motor likes the revs better) When I put it in, it was making a lot of noise, so I pulled it back out and it turns out that my $275 didn't buy me a Viscous but a clutch type LSD. On to my question...

I've been doing A LOT of research (my eyes hurt right now) about whether a Helical or a clutch type LSD will be better for AutoX. (The helical would be the S15 unit). I'm SERIOUSLY leaning twords the Helical, due to it being a torque bias differential and not a speed bias differential. The extra maintenence for the clutch type is unappealing to me as this is my daily as well. The problem is that I'm getting conflicting information.

My father in law, who's been racing cars for for longer than I've been alive, thinks that the clutch type will be better, but I have a feeling that he's not had a lot of experience driving a RWD car w/a Helical.

On the other hand, almost all F1 cars, and all of the SAE formula cars are using Helicals.

So to those who have experience, what do you think, and why.

Helical or Clutch?

Post by **Dano** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:18 pm

PS, Keep all smartarse comments out of here, if there's enough good info in here, we'll add this to the FAQ.

-Dan

Post by **float_6969** » Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:17 pm

I'm not getting any love Dano...

Post by **91rs13** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:42 am

Not a Smart A$$ Comment, --But since you already have the Clutch type--seems like the best choice?

What shape are the clutch packs in?

Post by **float_6969** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:04 pm

My concern is about the differences in how a clutch type vs. a helical type work. I suspect, that for my specific application the helical would be a better route, but since it would be much easier to use the one I've already got, I'm not sure what to do. Hence me asking for some input from other.

I don't know yet. I haven't dissassembled it. I'm planning on doing that tonight.

Post by **Red coupe** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:14 pm

according to JZA70.com(some Toyota site?) Helical is betterhttp://www.jza70.com/articles/diffs_lsd/

some info on how a helical works...http://www.roadraceengineering.com/quaife.htm

http://members.rennlist.org/95....html

Just a few things I found googling diff types...maybe not exactly what your looking for but its all I got...Seems like the only real problem with helical is if you r ever on really sticky tires and lift one wheel completely it stops helping.

Ive been wondering if they are worth the massive amounts they can go for are worth it. I know we have a few members with helicals, but I haven't really read any reviews...

Post by **float_6969** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:41 pm

LOL, I have already read just about every site you posted, but thanks for looking for me!

I too have read that if you lift a wheel, they can become worthless (the newer ones from Quaife come with pre-load so that isn't a problem), but if you have your car set up properly, a RWD car shouldn't EVER lift it's rear tires. At least IMHO...

Post by **Red coupe** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:55 pm

Oh well I tried...Kinda figured you would hit up the google search, but I figured since I found those sites might as well....I say get the Helical, come back here and give us a damn good review I think some kinda new differential is the next thing my car needs, ever since the coil-overs its loved to spin the inside wheel on when turning onto crowned roads...

Post by **float_6969** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:58 am

That I can do. I'm taking pics tonight and then it'll go up on eBay.

Post by **importer** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:25 pm

You should pull good $ for that LSD on eBay.The last TOMEI that I had went for near $700 !

Post by **float_6969** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:29 pm

That's exactly what I'm hoping to get for it.

I dissasembled it and checked the clutch plates, and I think this thing is practically brand new. The clutch plates didn't show any wear at all.

I forgot the dang camera though and I didn't feel like taking it back apart.

It'll go up on eBay tomorrow night. It's in the Nissan Parts BST Forum right now.

Post by **importer** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:35 pm

I probally should have traded you, seeing that I have about 6 helicals, and no cam-lock types right now.

Post by **float_6969** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:04 pm

I would MUCH rather trade! Email me HERE

Or my AIM is NismoMan240sxOr my Yahoo is float_6969

Post by **TrueSlide** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:55 am

Helical for autoX, since your your speeds never get to fast. Just my opinion, but one that responds to torque rather then speed will benefit you in autoX more.

Post by **float_6969** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:08 am

That was my thought. I've got someone to trade me straight across now, and I should be able to do a write up on the install next late next week for everyone.

Post by **float_6969** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:23 am

I just got it in today. This thing is awesome. I was concerned about it weighing more than the clutch type, but I don't think it does. If anything it weighs less actually.

When I shipped mine out, the total weight after packaging was 39lbs. The helical that I just received, with packaging, was only 31lbs.

I'll have install pics and such after I get the special NISMO bolts I'm waiting for.

Post by **2_Liter_Turbo** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:11 pm

From past experiences. Clutch Type Differentials will cause massive understeer when exiting a corner and entering a corner (if it is a 2 way), where as a Helical unit will not cause understeer at all. This is all determined if your grip driving of course

Post by **float_6969** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:45 am

It was a 2 way, and THAT was exactly my concern. I've always felt that clutch type differentials have their place, but autoX is not it....

Post by **AmoebAssassin** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:06 pm

Are the torsen type diffs suitable for drifting as well? Honestly I told myself that I'd always be a road racer and wouldn't succumb to the drift craze, but I attended one event (with my open diff car) and was pretty entertained, so I can see myself drifting more often. However, I'm currently shopping for a LSD of sorts and was seriously eyeing an S15 HLSD, but I don't want something that will leave me with essentially an opend diff for drifting. If anyone can comment on this situation, that'd be great.

Post by **2_Liter_Turbo** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:56 pm

AmoebAssassin wrote:Are the torsen type diffs suitable for drifting as well? Honestly I told myself that I'd always be a road racer and wouldn't succumb to the drift craze, but I attended one event (with my open diff car) and was pretty entertained, so I can see myself drifting more often. However, I'm currently shopping for a LSD of sorts and was seriously eyeing an S15 HLSD, but I don't want something that will leave me with essentially an opend diff for drifting. If anyone can comment on this situation, that'd be great.

If you want to drift, you gotta get a clutch type differential. Torsen Type Diffs will react very closely to an open diff in a drift. If you still want to raod race (and drift) then I'd get a 1 or 1.5 way Clutch Type (2 ways are best for all out drift).

When it comes to raod racing 2 ways will give you understeer at the entrance and exit of a corner. A 1 or 1.5 way will only give you understeer comming out of a corner. A torsen will give you a neutral to oversteer feeling coming into a corners, but give you awesome traction comming out.

Hope that helps.

Post by **float_6969** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:09 am

I couldn't have stated it better myself.

Post by **2_Liter_Turbo** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:33 am

float_6969 wrote: I couldn't have stated it better myself.

Oh come on I'm not stupid! lol

Post by **AmoebAssassin** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:34 pm

That does help, but it makes my decision harder

I can't stand understeer at all, but I really enjoy drifting. If only there was some common ground

Post by **2_Liter_Turbo** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:45 pm

AmoebAssassin wrote:That does help, but it makes my decision harder

I can't stand understeer at all, but I really enjoy drifting. If only there was some common ground

If I were you I'd just go with a 1.5 way Clutch LSD. Or Get a VLSD/CLSD for drifting purposes and a helical for DD and road racing. It only takes about 20 min to swap pumpkins.

Post by **float_6969** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:31 pm

The understeer is caused by the clutch type's tendancy to want to keep the wheels spinning at the same speed, more than it wants to let them spin at different speeds.

What happens, especially in an autoX in a tight slow turn, the diff won't like that the wheels are trying to spin as such different speeds. So it will try to lock them up. So the outside wheel, which is spinning faster than the inside, trys to lock up the inside, which makes it spin much faster than it needs to, which pushes the car out, which causes understeer. [/runon sentence]

Post by **Red coupe** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:19 pm

Have your gotten the bolts yet?Were are you guys finding these at? just searching e-bay?

Post by **float_6969** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:51 pm

No. He didn't get them shipped until today, so I prob won't have them until next week.

If you search for posts by the user bioshensutch (sp?), about helical or torsen, he's got a picture of the bolts in the thread.

Post by **Red coupe** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:21 pm

Sorry I meant where is the best place to find a torsen diff, just scouring classifieds and eBay?

Post by **float_6969** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:51 am

eGhey....

Post by **float_6969** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:27 pm

What the heck...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...:MT:1

Torsen/Helical or Clutch LSD for AutoX?

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