The Ground Zero Mosque, a diversion

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themadscientist
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Ground Zero Mosque

The Mad Moderate 08/20/10

As we get closer to the Mid-Term elections partisanship and character assassination may be expected to ramp up significantly. Our political ruling class in this day and age cannot be expected to focus on issues of actual significance lest they be exposed as completely inept at the nuts and bolts of governance and simply the power-hungry self-absorbed criminals most of them are. Like clockwork they bring us the "debate" over the "ground zero mosque."

I have resisted commenting on this subject up till this point as I see it for what it is, a diversion, a pseudo-event. Its only true purpose is to scramble the news cycle and keep us arguing amongst each other rather than devoting time to critical analysis of those that seek to keep their jobs in November and those that hope to take those same jobs; the candidates.

Unfortunately, this issue continues to gain traction and our lemming-like electorate is in full "oh, look at the pretty divisive thing" mode, so let's talk about it, if only to weigh in that we might then attempt to move on.

the facts as of this writing:

Where is this thing supposed to be built?
The location is to be 45-51 Park Place



Who owns the land?
http://www.newmediajournal.us/culture_wars/0809.htm
coat factory There are two pieces of real estate that make up the proposed site that the old Burlington Coat Factory building currently occupies. One parcel is owned by Sharif El-Gamal's Soho Properties, http://www.sohoproperties.com/ but the other is owned by New York utility Con-Edison who leased it to El-Gamal. He wishes to exercise his option to buy and Con-Ed is currently appraising it to determine its value. Despite the protestations of people like Representative Peter King,
http://peteking.house.gov/
a contract is a contract and Con-Ed has stated "We are following our legal obligations under the lease. We will not allow other considerations to enter into this transaction,"

What is the Cordoba Initiative?
http://www.cordobainitiative.org/

The name is not a coincidence. Cordoba is not just an ugly Chrysler car from the 70's,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsg97bxuJnc
it's a significant town in Spain but without the "rich Corinthian leather".
http://www.andalucia.com/cities/cordoba.htm
It changed hands for hundreds of years between the Romans, the Muslim Moors, and Christians.

cordoba mosque Indeed, as many on the anti-build side of the argument correctly suggest, the Muslims did erect a mosque on the site of a Christian church after they conquered Cordoba.
http://www.andalucia.com/cities/cordoba/mosque.htm
It was significant, being considered second only to Kaaba in size. What our vocal friends neglect to mention is, that Christian church was, like so many are, built on the site of a former pagan temple. Indeed claiming the holy sites of your opposition as a spoil is not strictly a Muslim thing, it's a religion thing. Another fact the anti-build movement omits is that, true to form, when Cordoba was reconquered in 1236 the Christians reclaimed it and to this day it remains a Christian church.



Who is Feisal Abdul Rauf?
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/indi ... indid=2462

Sarah Palin weighed-in and that's about as much comment as she rates; look her up if her opinion means anything to you.

Charles Krauthammer, a syndicated columnist, is among many who have called the Area "Hallowed Ground". Hallowed ground? Let's check out the neighborhood, shall we?
http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/n ... s/19590651

An Off Track Betting Parlor. Nothing honors the memory of 9-11 like a good gamb|ing establishment. Luckily there is one within a stone's throw. I'm so proud. Put $100.00 on teabiscuit or the terrorists win. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/25/nyreg ... ritic.html

A Lingerie shop and peep show, no wait, they have an American flag on it so that makes it PATRIOTIC lingerie. C'mon girls, show your love of freedom with a crotchless leather teddie! Are you saluting or is it cold in here? http://lostnewyorkcity.blogspot.com/200 ... gerie.html

And a personal favorite of mine, a strip club, New York Dolls! http://www.nydollsclub.com/ (NSFW) What could be more American than women taking off their clothes for cash!

Wait, a less prestigious strip club The Pussycat Lounge http://www.pussycatlounge.com/ (NSFW) is in the area too. I like that there is competition; it exemplifies our capitalist ideals. I suspect that the "invisible hand" you are likely to get here is not the one Adam Smith was talking about, though.

I find it hard to take seriously those that ascribe sanctity to a place and seek to block a Mosque when some of the baser parts of our nature are celebrated in the same area. So where is "the moral courage to denounce it." that you call for us to have, Newt, when people are getting lapdances two blocks away from where thousands of Americans were brutally killed? I have to assume this is the American way of life Newt is seeking to defend.

Yes, Newt Gingrich has seen fit to make this an issue releasing several statements on this Mosque, the most recent being this little gem. In a failed attempt to draw a metaphorical argument. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/201 ... round.html

"Nazis don't have the right to put up a sign next to the holocaust museum in Washington,"

Actually Newt, that's not true. If they adhere to relevant laws they can. You have to Love the Nazi comment. Most political rhetoric eventually embraces that hyperbolic favorite. It pains me that as highly an influential politician as you are and certain to make a Presidential bid in 2012 you either don't know or refuse to acknowledge such a simple fact. You don't, though, and your earlier statement on your website where you argue there should be No Mosque at Ground Zero is similarly full of error.
http://www.newt.org/newt-direct/no-mosque-ground-zero
It was a very well written statement but as passionate and eloquent as your words are they have no legal or Constitutional merit.

Let's start with

"There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia. The time for double standards that allow Islamists to behave aggressively toward us while they demand our weakness and submission is over."

This is America, Newt. We stand for religious freedom here. That other countries do not is not relevant to how WE as AMERICANS respect and defend OUR principles. By this model, Newt and myopic persons of his ilk would seek to emulate those oppressive countries by degenerating our freedom in the same way as those he criticizes. Next we will try to justify torture because...oh yeah, that's right. This is ironic as he says

"Building this structure on the edge of the battlefield created by radical Islamists is not a celebration of religious pluralism and mutual tolerance; it is a political statement of shocking arrogance and hypocrisy."

No Newt, Hypocricy is saying this.

"....this is a test of our commitment to religious liberty. It is a test to see if we have the resolve to face down an ideology that aims to destroy religious liberty in America, and every other freedom we hold dear."

and combating that ideology by erasing sections of our Constitution, undermining those same freedoms you claim to wish to defend. So we protect ourselves from religious discrimination by doing it ourselves? Shocking. Maybe you should read your own policy statement sometime. http://www.newt.org/issues/religious-liberty

Newt does bring up an interesting point , though, without meaning to.

"We have not been able to rebuild the World Trade Center in nine years. Now we are being told a 13 story, $100 million megamosque will be built within a year overlooking the site of the most devastating surprise attack in American history."

This is a very poignant statement Mr. Gingrich, but not for the reason you think. Indeed, WHY is there no progress on the WTC site this long after the attack? America should not be angry that this dubious group seeks to build a trophy building here, but rather that it will not be erected in the shadow of a gleaming monument of our undaunted resolve soaring triumphantly into the sky. Why is that not there after nine years? I suggest that nothing is standing there because there is nothing to champion. Those Americans that were ruthlessly killed deserve better than what has been done, or rather not done on that site. As Americans seriously argue to tear up our constitutional freedoms based upon emotional and fallacious arguments could there be any more fitting symbol than a vacant lot populated with empty promises of a vapid people, us.
promise forgotten

9/11 was arguably the most significant moment in recent American history. I am old enough to remember it and I did watch the attack live on TV. I tuned in after the first plane hit. Within moments, as I was still trying to wrap my head around the smoking tower, the second plane hit spewing flames and debris down to the street. I watched in horror as people leapt to their deaths from the burning buildings. Hearing of the attack on the Pentagon, I called home. My Mother worked in Alexandria Virginia and heard the rumble of the plane crashing into the building a few miles away. It's very real for me.

As stunned and shell-shocked as we all were, though, nobody can truly understand the pain of the victims families. None of us can appreciate the sacrifices of the first responders and those that wrestled the last plane away from the terrorists causing it to crash in that Pennsylvania field. We should never forget that day. We should never allow those heroes to fade into the abyss of time. We shouldn't, but we have. For a very short time after the attacks we forgot our petty differences and came together. People in countries around the world stood with us in solidarity, "today, we are all Americans." I have never experienced such a time before, and certainly not since. We squandered that good will earned in the blood of of thousands of victims, but that is the subject for many other commentaries. The point is, we stopped caring, the WTC site is still bare, and real news again competes with "Dr. Laura said the N word!" We should be ashamed. promise forgotten

Until the Cordoba Initiative decided to build this "cultural center" nobody cared anymore. The events of 9/11 had lost their meaning and were just used as a tool to meticulously erode our liberties. Rahm Emannuel once said, "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste."
http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PU ... 45271.html
That is not a mentality exclusive to him, nor to the current administration, definitely not the previous one that first took advantage of it. It's not a Democrat or Republican idea, it's what powerful people use to erode the very freedoms they are supposed to be protecting. The Patriot Act, warrantless wire taps, the way every facet of our privacy is invaded all in the name of "fighting the terrorists," is a red herring. It's about control. Both parties play this fear game, both parties seek to divide and shackle us. This recent scramble to muster outrage at the construction of this project is just a means to an end. The naked attempt to undermine the first amendment under the guise of "freedom" simply shows just how emboldened the enemies of freedom truly are. I am not speaking about the terrorists, they can only attack us from the outside. The destruction of our very ideological core by partisan ideologues, however, can do us more damage than any hijacked airplane. That kind of attack happens from within.

I agree that the Cordoba Initiative seeks to build a symbol on this site. I do not believe, based upon the man involved, the things he says, the company he keeps, that he has positive intentions. It is intended to be a sign of conquest, a marketing tool in the fundamentalist Islamic world. Unlike those that feel this way and strive to stop its construction, though, I think it will send a dual message.

Those that seek to destroy us and what we stand for will see it as a victory, but we were never going to change their minds anyway so why does that matter? The Constitution provides another right in the second amendment to help deal with them and I believe in and exercise that right effectively as well. No, the message we need to focus on is to the rest of the world, to people of moderate Muslim practice, those of other faiths, and those of no faith, of those within our country and those without.

This isn't about what some whack-job imams think, it's about what we think. This is about what our friends think, about what people who seek to know us think. This is about the fundamental question of whether we can walk our own talk.

Americans like to throw our ideals in other people's faces, tell them all the things we stand for and how that makes us better than them. While I lament the methods, and would like to see the message less holier-than-thou, I agree that our ideas of individual freedom and rule of law are indeed our greatest gift to the world.

The first amendment to the constitution clearly guarantees the right of religion, speech, and peaceable assembly. There is no footnote that says "unless we don't like them." The problem with upholding an ideal is you have to be consistent. To this point, nothing about this project is illegal. As people investigate, perhaps something in the funding may provide a reason to stop it but for the moment no laws have been broken, it's legitimate. That many people find it offensive is true, that their emotional reaction to it is real, justified, and powerful is certain. It is not, however, grounds to disregard the Constitutional right to build it. We have to protect the right in all applicable cases regardless of personal feelings or we establish a dangerous precedent. We stand for all freedoms enumerated or we stand for none.

I have stood in the presence of the Constitution, it is humbling and makes one swell with pride to be an American. This simple document, so brief for the purpose intended, every word fought-over, none superfluous, has served as a shining beacon to guide us, a benchmark in a world of shifting ideologies and interests. It is, however, just a piece of paper. When we no longer believe in it, it ceases to have any power and becomes meaningless.

This is what this is about, not terrorists, not the crisis du jour, and not some stuffed shirt plucking at your fears for political gain. It's about whether we allow ourselves to cast the ideas that have made this country great asunder because they are inconvenient or whether we do what is right, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.

No zealot can destroy what America is. No extremist can destroy who we are. No despot or movement either religious or secular can kill an idea. Only we can do that. As Americans, we are the keepers of what we stand for, nobody else. It isn't our weapons that our enemies fear, it's our ideas. American culture has conquered more territory than all the armies that have ever gone into battle under our flag. This is a war of ideas we are fighting. The bombs and bullets are just devices in that war and the least effective at that.

If we allow two-faced politicians to undermine what we stand for we will cease to be a beacon for the rest of the world. The beliefs that America once stood for will no longer have weight and as has so often been asserted "the terrorists win." We have a debt owed to those that preceded us to keep the flame burning. Unfortunately, that very flame demands that we allow those that do not believe in it to bask in its warmth. It expects that we let them sit with us even though they clutch a dagger and seek to do us harm. To do anything less makes us hypocrites and the flame will die. They will not have doused it, they cannot, only we can do that.

What will you do?

Regardless of your stance on this Mosque, please take a moment to donate to any of the charities involved with the 9/11 attacks. Money, time, emotional support, whatever you can give to the victims of this heinous crime will be worthwhile and honor their sacrifice more than harsh words could.

http://www.familiesofseptember11.org/donate.aspx

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http://www.answerthecall.org/donate

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^ Excellent.

Thank you for posting that.

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Awesome. Thanks

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I wasnt sure where to put this, but this is the most recent mosque thread so here goes. I did alot of thinking about this issue this weekend, and I have to admit I am a bit upset at myself for apparently tasting a bit of the "stop them now!" kool-aid. As someone who loves America because of what it stands for, theres no excuse. That does not change the fact that I DONT like the idea of it, but then the builders arent exactly asking anyones opinion, nor listening to anyone who offers one. But I have come up with a possible solution. It is what could be considered a "free-market" solution of sorts. ALOT of people are against this thing, and SURELY among them are some wealthy real estate tycoons. Lets see them put their money where their mouth is, and make these folks an offer for the land that they cant refuse. These guys may or not be radical idealogs, BUT whether they are or not, money talks. Sure perhaps it will require a bit more money than the market value of the land to get them to bite, but is it worth it to not have the thing there? Well thats what they have to decide, and if no one wants to MAN UP and do it, then I guess they just need to sit back and watch.

Any thoughts on this?

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As much as I sympathize with the theory that this is "just a distraction," I'm not convinced. Even here in Connecticut, there have been numerous incidents (including in Bridgeport and Watertown) where Mosques didn't want to create a new location but simply expand the walls of their existing locations that have run up against extreme opposition and protest.

We've got a problem here. And I don't just mean in the Northeast. There's similar issues all over the US, be it New York City or South Carolina.

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1) Great post, TMS!
2) Haters gonna hate. The same people who seem to consistently bring up our identity as a Nation, our history, and our Constitution conveniently forget that our Constitution applies equally to all who dwell within our borders. But hey, what do you expect from the party whose roots lay with white, wealthy Southern slaveowners who later opposed the 14th and 15th Amendments?
3) A new, very big mosque is being built in my neighborhood. I am thrilled, as this may mean an influx of Muslim families into my subdivision, purchasing properties that have been for sale now for 12 - 18 months and thereby driving up or at least stabilizing property values in the area.

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Well written, TMS! :yesnod

Z

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IBCoupe wrote:As much as I sympathize with the theory that this is "just a distraction," I'm not convinced. Even here in Connecticut, there have been numerous incidents (including in Bridgeport and Watertown) where Mosques didn't want to create a new location but simply expand the walls of their existing locations that have run up against extreme opposition and protest.

We've got a problem here. And I don't just mean in the Northeast. There's similar issues all over the US, be it New York City or South Carolina.
Stop. Freakin' stop. You're breakin' my damn heart here.

Let those of us who are moving toward where you think you already are, get there a step at a time.

See, IB, this is the damned problem. Stebo voiced my position perfectly, so I don't need to repeat what he said - suffice it to say that he and I are in the same boat. But goddammit, just because you're young and supposedly "enlightened" doesn't mean everyone is. Slow the F down. There are people here who were raised differently from you. There are people here who are old. People here who lost body parts and spouses and sons and brothers and family members fighting for YOUR right to whine about who can build a damn mosque and where it can be built. STOP. Keep ramming stuff down people's throats and there's gonna be a backlash, and then what? THEN we're back in 1957.

Keep it up and you'll gain GOOD ground - but lose BETTER ground.

Does this mean I don't agree with your position? HELL NO. People can build a church wherever they want (and are legally able). You saw it yourself - I switched positions. STRONGLY.

But slow the hell down.

Don't like it? Let me remind you that it's NOT JUST THE MUSLIMS who get hassled on church-building. I could tell you horror stories of the needless, senseless, unexplained bureaucracy that WE went through (I was very involved in the building of a large non-denominational Christian church, which I attended for 10+ years) in nearby Glendale. Protests. Arguments. Unexplained barriers. Theft of construction equipment. Defacings. Vandalism. Threats from neighbors. Angry groups waving signs. Legal action. Disruptions and delays.

SO, I respectfully ask that you quit being such an apologist, and quit chugging the OTHER kool-aid... You know, the flavor that leads people to believe that there's oppression and strife where there's an alternate explanation. Let people come around... I promise, you'll see some beautiful change in your lifetime.

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"We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al-Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non Muslims," Feisal Abdul Rauf said at a 2005 lecture sponsored by the University of South Australia. After discussing the U.S.-led sanctions against Iraq under Saddam Hussein, Rauf went on to argue that America is to blame for its testy relationship with Islamic countries.

"What complicates the discussion, intra-Islamically, is the fact that the West has not been cognizant and has not addressed the issues of its own contribution to much injustice in the Arab and Muslim world."

Hmmmm.

Anyhow, while you think on all that... here's my next question: What's the delay? You want to build, start building. Quit being a bunch of drama queens and bring in some bulldozers. Or are they waiting for ALL of America to embrace the idea?

STFU and start pouring concrete and let us get back to REAL news.

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I am concerned about what happens when some wingnut justifies violence against this thing in the same way those Muslims involved in 9/11 justified theirs. There is some pretty caustic irresponsible rhetoric on the "no-build" side. I'm satisfied that that is not representative of the whole movement but as history has shown, it just takes one person to go too far.

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As a Muslim, I think it would have been such a cool thing if this Islamic community center was built. However, in a way, I'm not so sure anymore if I want this center to be built.

Why, you may ask? Well, as the anti-Muslim rhetoric seems to be increasing as each day goes by, I am honestly afraid to think about the backlash (especially physical) we may experience if this center is built.

To me, now it has become an issue of safety more than anything else.

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I think that would be a bad reason for not wanting it to go through.

My concern is the collision of conflicting positions we're going to see now. This situation is really making people rethink their priorities and what they truly believe in.

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AZhitman wrote:I think that would be a bad reason for not wanting it to go through.

My concern is the collision of conflicting positions we're going to see now. This situation is really making people rethink their priorities and what they truly believe in.
I agree Greg.

The thing that really gets to me is that I am afraid to think about where this country is headed in terms of how ultimately an issue is resolved. I was born and raised here and still live here for a reason. I don't plan on moving out of the U.S. either. The one thing that I appreciate and respect about the people (in power) here is that regardless of what the emotions are and how they make one feel, it all comes down to what the law says. At least, that's what they supposed to do. If they don't there is a system of checks and balances to hold one accountable.

I'm more of the type that goes by what written law says and want concrete evidence. That said, regardless of the wisdom of building Park51 (I personally believe it would be beneficial to everyone around - Muslims and non-Muslims), it all comes down to what is legal and illegal. Are they legally building it? If yes, then let it be!

If Park51 is not allowed to be built because of the emotions involved, then really I don't believe the future is bright - at least for me. I'd probably consider moving somewhere else. What'd be next? Ban the hijab? Beards? Arab clothing? Where will it end?

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I think the conflicted feelings that many people have about the Mosque are legitimate and real. They're also very complex, and not simple to understand. It's one of those things where it just "feels" wrong, but you can't quite articulate WHY.

That's very similar to asking one of your relatives who hasn't lived in the US what they think of us all... You may hear some not-so-nice things, yet they really don't know what they're talking about, because they haven't LIVED here - you have.

This is one of the rare cases where I think the media has been VERY irresponsible... this is a non-issue, yet even smart people (myself, Stebo, for example) were initially sucked into opposing the project.

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Both of those individuals represent the best and worst of America.

I wouldn't piss on either of them if they were on fire, but I'd defend their right to carry those signs to the death.

Make sense?

Yeah. Me neither. :gotme

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The problem is a well thought out statement uttered at conversational tone is easily drowned out by screaming ignorance. All that can be done is to do our best to marginalize the 1%. Like a kid who throws a tantrum, entertaining the out of control only serves to encourage the behavior. I don't blame the fringe elements for fanning the flames. I blame people of moderation for not speaking up on behalf of sanity.

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AZhitman wrote:Stop. Freakin' stop. You're breakin' my damn heart here.

Let those of us who are moving toward where you think you already are, get there a step at a time.

See, IB, this is the damned problem. Stebo voiced my position perfectly, so I don't need to repeat what he said - suffice it to say that he and I are in the same boat. But goddammit, just because you're young and supposedly "enlightened" doesn't mean everyone is. Slow the F down. There are people here who were raised differently from you. There are people here who are old. People here who lost body parts and spouses and sons and brothers and family members fighting for YOUR right to whine about who can build a damn mosque and where it can be built. STOP. Keep ramming stuff down people's throats and there's gonna be a backlash, and then what? THEN we're back in 1957.

Keep it up and you'll gain GOOD ground - but lose BETTER ground.

Does this mean I don't agree with your position? HELL NO. People can build a church wherever they want (and are legally able). You saw it yourself - I switched positions. STRONGLY.

But slow the hell down.

Don't like it? Let me remind you that it's NOT JUST THE MUSLIMS who get hassled on church-building. I could tell you horror stories of the needless, senseless, unexplained bureaucracy that WE went through (I was very involved in the building of a large non-denominational Christian church, which I attended for 10+ years) in nearby Glendale. Protests. Arguments. Unexplained barriers. Theft of construction equipment. Defacings. Vandalism. Threats from neighbors. Angry groups waving signs. Legal action. Disruptions and delays.

SO, I respectfully ask that you quit being such an apologist, and quit chugging the OTHER kool-aid... You know, the flavor that leads people to believe that there's oppression and strife where there's an alternate explanation. Let people come around... I promise, you'll see some beautiful change in your lifetime.
That was unexpected.

I'm not getting down on anybody here. I'm just pointing out that this is not an isolated incident. A few towns away from me a year or so back, there was a big to-do about Muslims wanting to build a cemetary. An entire week of one local newspaper's write-ins focused on whether or not the large building on the premises was to be a Mosque.

The premise of this thread is that this is really a non-issue. I'm saying that this premise couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not doing it to tell people here that they're wrong; you guys haven't even commented on that disagreement.

I was down on you earlier because of your reasoning, not because of your position, and that's all I do: you guys haven't really commented on the other protests and issues throughout the country, so you haven't really taken a position on it, so you haven't had an opportunity to justify your position, so I haven't had an opportunity to examine your justification. And I'm not being critical of you for not doing so.

I'm not whining, Greg, but I suppose you could read it that way. But even then, as you might suspect, I don't care. To quote Fox Mulder (as I've been watching the X-Files on DVD for the past couple of weeks): "I don't care how I sound, as long as what I'm saying is the truth."

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IBCoupe wrote: "I don't care how I sound, as long as what I'm saying is the truth."
dont try to run for office. :D

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AZhitman wrote:Both of those individuals represent the best and worst of America.

I wouldn't piss on either of them if they were on fire, but I'd defend their right to carry those signs to the death.
Greg, this is exactly why, even though you and I may disagree on a great many things, that I would take a (hopefully metaphorical) bullet for you.

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we fire our guns into the air...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZA90O_-YlE[/youtube]

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Yeah. About that.... ;)

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On a side note... Let's make sure to remember WHO gave us the Federal Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act.

For those who don't know, it was penned by the GOP and passed in 2000, when Republicans controlled Congress.

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Newt Gingrich would do well to remember it, I'd say.

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AZhitman wrote:On a side note... Let's make sure to remember WHO gave us the Federal Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act.

For those who don't know, it was penned by the GOP and passed in 2000, when Republicans controlled Congress.

Oh how I miss the pre-Mavericky McCain.

thanks for reminding me of how good things used to be before Mama Grizzly stole the GOP microphone

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;) Good one. I don't think she's as influential as you give her credit for.

The REAL GOP (that silent majority that exists, whether the bleating lefties want to admit it or not) is somewhere just right of center.

If I *were* a Republican, I'd be expecting a Christmas card from all my Muslim friends for our efforts. Wait. Never mind. :facepalm:

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AZhitman wrote:;) Good one. I don't think she's as influential as you give her credit for.

The REAL GOP (that silent majority that exists, whether the bleating lefties want to admit it or not) is somewhere just right of center.

If I *were* a Republican, I'd be expecting a Christmas card from all my Muslim friends for our efforts. Wait. Never mind. :facepalm:

well, id be happy to send you one. although it may come from new york, and so it may be evidence of a grand islamist conspiracy that im trying to infiltrate christmas in the heart of REAL MERCUH.

just sayin'
becarful of what you wish for ;)

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:rotfl Well-done, sir.

I'm in mah turban... infiltratin' ur Crismus.

Image

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Image

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side story, the woman on the right, was soon stoned for public indecency. thus bringing an end to our long nightmare.
and everyone lived happily ever after.

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Holy damn, I'm crackin' up in here... :spitout: :rotfl :lolling:


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