[ 300zx brake calipers ]

[MadSideways]

Does anyone know what the aluminium or iron 300zx calipers actually weigh? I haven't seen any posts, nothing under the search, and google yields no responses either...

Just doing a comparison for an upgrade between the 26mm 300zx aluminum calipers and the wilwood dynalites which are 2.5lbs.

[NEED4BOOST]

Don't bother upgrading to the 26mm Aluminum Nissan calipers. Nissan had problems with them warping, hence the change from aluminum to cast iron in 1993. Plus the iron calipers are 30mm (4mm more but still bigger) but also weigh a bit more. Atleast it isn't rotational mass.

Oh I don't know what your intent is with this upgrade. My goal with the car is to build a track/race car and I chose to upgrade to the Nissan 4 piston brakes that are iron.

[MadSideways]

While spending 6 hours at deal's gap over the weekend, I found the stock braking system to be EXTREMELY inadequate....

My goal would be to increase braking efficiency while reducing 'unsprung weight' and 'rotational mass' at the front corners and increase my cornering ability.

Since the 240sx weighs considerably less than the 300zx, I don't think that warping the calipers would be a problem. Although I would think they would crack before they warp.

The width of the rotor should only determine the life of the rotor, not braking efficiency. A 26mm rotor would weigh less than a 30mm rotor, thereby reducing unsprung weight even more.

[NEED4BOOST]

So you ran down the dragons tail. Im actually in NC. I haven't ran Deals Gap but I was supposed to until there was an unexpected crash by 2 of my friends. It was the NC ITR (type R) chapter that was going to make some fun runs also it was an organized S2k meet.

Anyway I would feel confident running the aluminum calipers for I feel that I would surely warp them during race events. I would love to loose some unsprung weight but it sure as hell beats rotational mass. I may later upgrade to a well known aluminum caliper but I still dont know how well the aluminum will do in endurance racing

[float_6969]

The warping problem was due to people being just plain stupid and that was it. People kept taking their 4000lbs monster Z32's out and driving them like mad and heating the brakes way up and then just parking the car and not driving it around gently to cool the brakes properly. I've never heard of anyone warping the calipers on the 240sx. I decided to go with the 26mm aluminum calipers due to the better heat transfere capablities of the aluminium calipers and the lower unsprung weight of the 26mm calipers. I believe that the 26mm calipers are more than adequate to stop the 240sx effeciently. As long as you make sure to properly cool the brakes after hard runs, there is no reason the calipers or rotors will warp.

[cow]

I could tell from my first test drive of a 240sx (s13) that the brakes were rather poor. They did not seem to stop me nearly as quickly or as responsively as the brakes on my Integra, and I wasn't even driving the car hard. I think a 300zx brake upgrade with some nice pads would be one of the first things I'd do to any 240. I would also go for the 30 mm calipers because I doubt I would notice the small weight difference but that's just me.

[float_6969]

there wouldn't be a big difference in weight between the different sized aluminum calipers, but there is a pretty decent difference in weight between the aluminum and the cast iron.

[MadSideways]

That was the original point of my thread, does anyone know the actual wieght of the iron or aluminium calipers?

I'm sure someone has got one in their garage that they could go weigh, and then come back and respond...

[float_6969]

Well I have the 26mm Aluminium calipers and the fronts weigh 8lbs a peice and the rears weigh 4.5lbs a peice. I think the rear calipers are the same on all Z cars but I could be wrong. I can't help with the 30mm aluminum or iron, sorry.

[MadSideways]

Holy smokes, I think I'm going to go with the Wilwood Billet Dynalite 4-piston calipers, (1.75"-pot x 1.00"-disc), to mate up with the 26x280mm rotors. They're only 2.5 lbs, and cheaper, 138$/per caliper from SummitRacing.COM.

TopHatPerformance.com has told me that they will fabricate a dogbone bracket to make them fit with the 300zx brembo rotors....

[trpower7]

I believe Z32 brakes on a 240 are overkill. You MUST upgrade your master cylinder as well if you expect to get any difference that will make sense on a track. Most people that upgrade find the new brake feel mushy and soft due to having inadequate fluid to push 12 pistons as opposed to four. If you want better brake feel and better stopping power I suggest using Q45 brakes. Most people who say the stock brakes are inadequate are saying so because they are worn out after being on for a decade. You'd be amazed how much a good set of pads and properly bled brakes will change things. I'd say 50-60% of the people that do the Z32 swap do it for looks and for bragging rights, not real, noticeable results. Also, your tires play the most part in your braking, no questions asked. You want to stop faster, get better tires.

[Nils]

I believe Z32 brakes on a 240 are overkill. You MUST upgrade your master cylinder as well if you expect to get any difference that will make sense on a track......

Do you say this from personal experience?

Funny, cause my personal REAL LIFE experience contradicts what you have just said. Swapping the front brakes made a HUGE difference at the road course, I never upgraded my master cylinder either.

take care,nils

[Repo Man]

I believe Z32 brakes on a 240 are overkill. You MUST upgrade your master cylinder as well if you expect to get any difference that will make sense on a track. Most people that upgrade find the new brake feel mushy and soft due to having inadequate fluid to push 12 pistons as opposed to four. If you want better brake feel and better stopping power I suggest using Q45 brakes. Most people who say the stock brakes are inadequate are saying so because they are worn out after being on for a decade. You'd be amazed how much a good set of pads and properly bled brakes will change things. I'd say 50-60% of the people that do the Z32 swap do it for looks and for bragging rights, not real, noticeable results. Also, your tires play the most part in your braking, no questions asked. You want to stop faster, get better tires.

The fluid issue I must agree with. An illustration of this is in SCC several months ago, when they upgraded their 240 to pizza-sized brakes and barely got any greater results. I think they could have done better to go with hi-perf pads and rotors as trpower has suggested. They eventually upgraded their master cylinder, but I have not seen the results of that upgrade.

Another thing that will make a huge difference is stainless braided brake lines. I helped one of my friends with his install on his Miata, and they made a huge difference in pedal feel and brake response. Very worthwhile.

[MadSideways]

I can assure you, having boiled the fluid over 3 times at the Gap, the oem braking system is inadequate for endurance or track racing. Maybe for daily driving they're fine, but even then brake fade is obvious from excess heat.

Maybe a higher temp fluid matched with higher temp pads would solve 60% of the problem.

But the fact is, the rotors are entirely too small, and the pads are not big enough, there's just too much heat. The cheapest upgrade is the 300zx upgrade, which is why most people do it. However, I'm looking for an increase in performance handling and braking power, which is why I'm going to tackle the wilwood's.

And I think anyone would agree that with any mod, bragging rights are only reasonable....

[93semax]

Holy smokes, I think I'm going to go with the Wilwood Billet Dynalite 4-piston calipers, (1.75"-pot x 1.00"-disc), to mate up with the 26x280mm rotors. They're only 2.5 lbs, and cheaper, 138$/per caliper from SummitRacing.COM.

TopHatPerformance.com has told me that they will fabricate a dogbone bracket to make them fit with the 300zx brembo rotors....

I paid $800 for my willwood big brake setup which included those calipers,pads,adapters, 13.1" rotors, and SS lines. It was for my maxima but I am 100% sure it will bolt on to my 240sx. Unfortunantly the kit costs $1k now. http://www.precisionbrakescomp....html

[float_6969]

I hadn't actually intended to do the brake upgrade.At least not for some time. I was going to rebuild the stock calipers, get some decent pads and stock sized Xdrilled and slotted rotors and see where that got me. I do autoX and track events and my stock setup definatly didn't cut it. But then I had the good fortune of coming across a '90 Z32 2+2 with everything but the motor for only $375. Since I now have access to the 26mm aluminum calipers, rear calipers, ebrake line, and the Mastercylinder, I decided to just go ahead and do the full brake upgrade. I might have been fine with the stock system. But now I KNOW I won't have to worry about it. I'm also doing a 5lug swap wich I didn't have any intention of doing, but once again, I had access to most of the parts and I'd already paid for it, so why not? I certainly don't think that it will hurt anything will it? Ultimatly, it's your car, and you can do whatever you want to do to it. Some people strip the interiors, have 3 different colored body panels, and put $5,000 into the motor. Some don't even know what an engine bay looks like, but have a sweet asz body kit, great big wing, and a slammin stereo system. Both talk sh it on the other guy, but both cars are nice in their own way. We all seem to have it in our heads here that the only way to build a car is to have it compete with porsches and bmw's. Lets face it, we all are intrested in a very well engineered vehicle. But it's not a porsche. If you want to build a car for looks, take it to shows and win money, then I say more power to you. If you want to spend your money and make your car go fast and turn even faster, then I say more power to you too. But just because someone doesn't want to build their car the same way that you do, or that they want to have upgrades they may not need, doesn't mean they're wrong. Chances are, they love their car just as much as you do. So I say, TO EACH IS THIER OWN. I'm not cuzzing anyone out, I'm just saying, I don't think it's right to tell someone what is right or wrong to do to THEIR pride and joy.

[MadSideways]

Quote »I paid $800 for my willwood big brake setup which included those calipers,pads,adapters, 13.1" rotors, and SS lines. It was for my maxima but I am 100% sure it will bolt on to my 240sx.[/quote]Yeah, I would go for that setup, but that's only for the front, and I'd have to get rims first, because the rotors are so big...I'm lookin to get something that will fit under the oem 16" rims...

[trpower7]

I can assure you, having boiled the fluid over 3 times at the Gap, the oem braking system is inadequate for endurance or track racing. Maybe for daily driving they're fine, but even then brake fade is obvious from excess heat.

Maybe a higher temp fluid matched with higher temp pads would solve 60% of the problem.

But the fact is, the rotors are entirely too small, and the pads are not big enough, there's just too much heat. The cheapest upgrade is the 300zx upgrade, which is why most people do it. However, I'm looking for an increase in performance handling and braking power, which is why I'm going to tackle the wilwood's.

And I think anyone would agree that with any mod, bragging rights are only reasonable....

The cheapest upgrade is definetly not Z32 brakes. Q45 brakes can be found for cheaper, pads cost a bit less, and they fit under even S13 steel wheels, which eliminates the worry of us S13 owners having to search for new wheels. Be sure to read up on upgrading your master cylinder, it is alot more difficult than most think. PDM sells the Z32 upgrade for a grand even, I sourced my own Q brakes with all new hardware for under $500, that's new calipers, rotors, shims, clips, pads, SS lines (all 4), high quality brake fluid, etc.

[Nismo1182]

what about turbo silvia/180sx calipers (same as 91 maxima calipers with 94 altima 11" rotors and 89 maxima pads)

Theyre supposed to be 50% bigger than stock US spec 240 brakes and they fit under stock wheels too.

Anyone have them or tried them?

[MadSideways]

Quote »I sourced my own Q brakes with all new hardware for under $500, that's new calipers, rotors, shims, clips, pads, SS lines (all 4), high quality brake fluid, etc. [/quote]If you don't mind iron calipers, you get everything but lines and fluid from nopi for 504$. Which includes the master cylinder w/reservoir, brembo vented rotors front & rear, pads front & rear, and calipers (rebuilt w/new shims & hardware).

TopHatPerformance.com has the lines needed for 125$, and a 6 pack of high-temp wilwood fluid is only 37$ from summitracing.com....

Not a big price difference for 4-piston calipers vs. 2-piston calipers....

[trpower7]

You still have to address the cost of wheel clearance. If you don't have upgraded wheels you have to get them, which means new rubber, balancing, etc. And you have to SERIOUSLY modify the Z32 master cylinder to work with your hard lines.

http://importnut.net/300zxbrakeswap.htm#frontbrake

That link sends you to the guy that did the master cylinder swap on his car. And $504 is the price without shims, clips, lines, and the appropriate fitting to adapt Z32 brakes. So at least $100 for lines, $37 for brake fluid, and Nissan wants $65 for the shim and clip kit (which you MUST get), and the cost of wheels, tires, balancing, etc, for S13 owners, and it's a substantial amount more. I still think most of you people are doing it just for the idiot "bling bling" factor. Also, to hearken back to my original post, TIRE TIRES TIRES TIRES!!!!! You want to stop better, get better tires. Your brakes perform to the point of locking them up. After that it's all up to your tires. If you do the whole Z32 swap, with master cylinder, etc, you'll have a setup that locks up twice as quick. While it does provide better performance, you had better watch out. I know with Q brakes you can stomp on it at 45 and lock them. That's next to scary.........

[MadSideways]

I don't see why you're getting all bent out of shape here, (that did include shims and clips btw). I never mentioned that this would be the cost for an s13 upgrade.

Since I own an s14-se, I obviously am not concerned with all the wheel/tire issues that you seem to feel extremely slighted over....And since I already have z-rated 225's, that is not a problem for me either...

Anyone with a similar setup to me, can get your 2-piston caliper setup for 500$, or get the 4-piston caliper setup for 650$....What's the big deal?

Or they can do what I'm going to do and fabricate their own Wilwood setup for 765$ + shipping...and go for the idiot bling factor...:pface

If the master cylinder swap makes you queezy, (bending a few lines, and digging out a little bead), maybe a 240 is not the right car for you...:rolleyes

[trpower7]

I'd calm down if I were you. I've had to fix way too many of these jobs that a kid has messed up. I've seen way too many people not be able to do this kind of thing and come to me for help. I've done way too many of the swaps to have someone complain that they were too harsh. I've had way too many people start buying parts becuase someone says its easy that has an S13, S14 base model, or otherwise and then have to just take it on the shoulder with the wheel issue. I've seen way too many people say that your car just isn't upgraded without the almighty Z32 brakes. My point is that the Z32 swap isn't to be taken likely, it isn't cheap, and it isn't for an average daily driver, or even a moderate track car. Anyone who has dealt with this kind of thing for a long time and used all the setups for each appropriate use will say so. Too many people start this project without the skills to bend a metal line (which involves skills that I'd say your average fix-a-flat car repair person DOES NOT have), don't know that their wheels won't fit, don't swap master cylinders, and don't know how to deal with this kind of braking force. I'm trying to stop everyone from getting the newbies to start buying up Z32 parts like crazy and then I'll get a flood of "my Z32 swap problems" threads. All the information on here is redundant anyway, this thread should have stopped long ago. I found all this information within five mintues of working on my very first S13 several years ago using http://www.google.com and http://www.freshalloy.com .

[C-Kwik]

You still have to address the cost of wheel clearance. If you don't have upgraded wheels you have to get them, which means new rubber, balancing, etc. And you have to SERIOUSLY modify the Z32 master cylinder to work with your hard lines.

http://importnut.net/300zxbrakeswap.htm#frontbrake

That link sends you to the guy that did the master cylinder swap on his car. And $504 is the price without shims, clips, lines, and the appropriate fitting to adapt Z32 brakes. So at least $100 for lines, $37 for brake fluid, and Nissan wants $65 for the shim and clip kit (which you MUST get), and the cost of wheels, tires, balancing, etc, for S13 owners, and it's a substantial amount more. I still think most of you people are doing it just for the idiot "bling bling" factor. Also, to hearken back to my original post, TIRE TIRES TIRES TIRES!!!!! You want to stop better, get better tires. Your brakes perform to the point of locking them up. After that it's all up to your tires. If you do the whole Z32 swap, with master cylinder, etc, you'll have a setup that locks up twice as quick. While it does provide better performance, you had better watch out. I know with Q brakes you can stomp on it at 45 and lock them. That's next to scary.........

#1, wheel clearance issues depends on what wheels you have. Even some of the 91+ S13 SE wheels will clear. Many people who would do this type of an upgrade would probably upgrade the wheels anyways, so the cost of new wheels is negligible.

#2, I run Banjo fittings on my Z32 Calipers and have been for two years, including several track events. The cost to modify the caliper was $25.00(I paid $40 as I included a tip since he waited afterhours for me to find his shop). The only mod you need to do is to have the surface around the hole for the brakeline machined so that it is flat and at 90 degrees to the hole itself. Only a very small amount of material needs to be removed.

#3, I paid less than $500 to buy used Calipers and rotors, which came with all the shims, to machine the caliper for the banjo fitting, and to rebuild it.

#4, I agree with the tires having a greater impact in stopping distance, but try taking your car up to 90mph and brake to 0 and repeat. You'll find the brakes will start to fade fairly quickly. I have yet to feel any fade from the Z32 brakes.

#5, I use a stock M/C and I can lock up my front tires. Keep in mind larger diameter rotors will provide more leverage for a given clamping pressure. The larger combined piston surface area will necessitate a longer pedal travel, but it is well within range of the stock M/C, as long as it is adjusted properly. And as long as you can reach the point of lock-up, you should be able to maximize the braking abilities that your tires allow. And do keep in mind, it's not how many pistons that requires more fluid volume. It's the surface area. And the Q45 brakes dual pistons have a larger combined Surface Area than the stock 240 brakes and is subject to a mushier feel as well.

#6, the Z32 Aluminum set-up is several pounds lighter than the Q45 set-up(per caliper).

#7, as far as this comment:

"My point is that the Z32 swap isn't to be taken likely, it isn't cheap, and it isn't for an average daily driver, or even a moderate track car. "

My car is daily driven, and sees track use. I drive my car to and from work, and drive pretty hard. I've never had any problems with the brakes and I would urge you to find yourself at a meet here is Southern Cali and see how many have this upgrade. Many of us go to the track regularly and have had absolutely no issues with the Z32 brakes. And I don't know anyone here that is using a Z32 M/C.

There is some validity to some of the issues you raise, but I think that you believe they are to the extreme sense. Certainly a longer pedal trave is required. But lock-up will occur if you push the pedal down enough. Costs of new parts are higher, but I've rarely seen anyone buy new parts for this upgrade. Wheel clearance is an issue, but that's still not as bad as you think. You've managed to exaggerate the few issues that the Z32 brakes have to try and prove your point. But the reality is the upgrade works, is safe, and not as expensive as you might believe.

[trpower7]

The point is that the more we talk about this the more inexperienced people will start to try it, notice something like mushy pedal feel, more pedal travel, the brake line fitting not just bolting up, and their wheels not clearing and come running here for help. Either that or that they absolutely HAVE to get those Z32 brakes if they're 240 is going to be anything to speak of, and never put them to any kind of use. Or getting Z32 brakes, misusing them, and causing some sort of accident. Seen too much of it in the past, don't want to see any more.

[Scott McLellan]

Does anyone know if the 300zx brake upgrade causes any problems with the ABS system.

Also, I know the 300zx stuff bolts right up in the front but what about in the back? Is the parking brake setup different?

[BadMojo]

Also, I know the 300zx stuff bolts right up in the front but what about in the back? Is the parking brake setup different?

The e-brake stuff is problematic. I don't necessarily know if there is a good solution to it yet.

projectsilvia.com is working on an e-brake kit, but i wouldn't expect it any time soon. Some folks have fabricated their own solutions...make sure you have an e-brake that won't fail.

As I understand it, the front brakes do quite a bit more of the work than the rears to stop your car. Front Z32 brakes with stock rears (fresh pads and good rotors) may well be more than you'll ever need. You could always start with the front swap and see if that serves your needs.

Personally, I considered the Z32 upgrade and decided to wait on it. I'll be doing some brake work before my inspection is up this October. I'll most likely get some nice new rotors, good street pads, stainless lines and GOOD fluid.

I don't know a lot about the Q brakes. I'm assuming that the Q rotors would need to be redrilled for a 4 lug S13. Something about redrilling rotors doesn't sit well with me, and the 5 lug swap, for me, isn't worth the money.

[wisconS-14]

The "30mm Aluminum" calipers were used on 1990 Twin-turbos and ALL 1991-1992.5 300ZX's (both turbo and non-turbo alike). They used a 280mm x 30mm rotor.

[wisconS-14]

Those are as big as the iron ones and should hold up better than the 26mm

[wisconS-14]

The rear Z32 brakes use a drum brake on the drivers side rotor for the E-brake while the 240 does not. thats why the swap is so hard.