Tire durability & stiffness issues

[MrFox]

I returned from a track session (my first) this weekend with my front tires worn to the bone. The AVS ES100s were inflated to max allowable pressure (44 psi) but continued to roll over badly. The amount of tread wear was also quite alarming. I know I'm over driving the tires but still need something to learn on. I'll need to purchase new tires ASAP. So I am looking for recommendations for front replacements. Looking for sidewall stiffness and durability under hard driving, and willing to sacrifice a bit on grip.

See my other thread for pics of the tires.http://www.nissaninfiniticlub....30657

Thanks!

[Grant@tirerack]

That's fairly typical when street tires are used on a track. Even though the compound is harder than a true race tire, the taller tead blocks are going to flex and generate a lot more heat. You can kiss the shoulder blocks goodbye. You'll run into that with any street tire that has more than 1/3 of the tread depth on them. I am not aware of any street tires that can take that without chunking or overheating. You could try having them shaved or get into something like the Yokohama A032R tires. That would be your best bet.

[Def]

If it was your first event and this is the wear you got, you are overdriving your tires. While I'll admit that a 240SX doesn't quite have the camber curves or static camber for track driving, I'd look more into your technique at this point.

I've done 3 track weekends, totalling about 800-900miles on the track and my ES100's are about halfway worn down on my stock 17" wheels. They offer just decent grip, but durability is pretty darn good.

Look into adding some static camber to your front tires, maybe -2* to start off with. Then run zero toe up front. Tire wear will be just fine on the streets, and you'll get good wear on the track.

IMO - stick with the ES100's if that's what you've got in the rear. Otherwise Kumho MX's seem to get rave reviews from all the people I talk to at the track, and they're not too expensive(you can get both from Tirerack.com).

I haven't changed anything on my car and I've gone from a tire squealing track n00b to someone that can pass much much faster cars that have novice drivers in them in only about 3 schools. You'll be amazed at how quickly you progress and refine your technique, so just get some tires and maybe think about negative camber up front and keep driving.

[C-Kwik]

If you're getting a lot of wear on the outer tread block and you car uses a strut up front, add some negative camber. I was frankly amazed at the resilts I got from doing this. Tires are lasting much longer and it handles much nicer. Keep in mind too much will sacrifice braking too much. I run about -3 degrees on my 240 and it's great. Like Grant said, street tires are not really designed with track events in mind, so keeping the contact patch flatter and the heat across the tread more even is critical to longetivity. I'd use camber plates. They are easy to adjust and can be done with an allen wrench a rubber mallet and a socket. This makes it easy to dial in negative camber at the track, then put it back to normal for the drive home. Or just do what I do and drive with the negative camber dialed in all the time. =)

[MrFox]

Thank you for the advice everyone. I realise I'm still very hamfisted (footed?) when it comes to track driving, and I'm not trying to blame the tire wear issue on the mechanics of the car or the tires themselves. I am just thinking to myself that a high performance (ie soft) tire might not be appopriate for me at my skill level at this time.

I've always been very happy with the AVS (intermediates and now ES100s) on public roads. Only now do I realize that I might not be ready to use such a soft tire due to my "over-eagerness" (instructor's comment) in turns. The camber plates sound like a good idea... but I'd like to refrain from modifying the suspension, at least until I learn to master the basics of controlling the car as it is now.

The vehicle is my daily driver. I'd like to find some tires that can last for a bit doing both street and track. Grip is not an issue... I'm not looking to be competitive, I just need a durable and predictable platform for me to learn on.

Thank you all for the recommandations. The A032R are beyond my finanical means unfortuantly. I'll look into the other options suggested as well as research on camber correction for the front struts. Thanks again.

[SmithSR]

Keep in mind that C-Kwik's method ignores tire longevity(since you mentioned you will be using the same tires for daily driving). It's well known that severe camber increases tire temperature on the edge with the greatest load applied. Heat is the enemy of all tires. So is uneven load distribution...which causes excess heat. Both will cause problems for you... if your plans are to run at the track, then drive the car to work the next day.

Whenever you adjust camber in a DIY fashion, and then skip a proper wheel alignment, you will sacrifice tire life....costing you more money.

I think your budget will be your only limitation. Most common question I hear is "how much will they cost", not "how well do they handle"

P.S. if you plan on running trackdays frequently, I suggest saving some cash for a set of track-only wheels/tires(AO32R, RA-1, etc). A hassle to switch them out, but well worth it, as your street tires won't be subjected to severe punishment and premature wear. Having two sets of application-specific wheels/tires saves money in the long run.

-Phil

[Exar-Kun]

I run my pirelli Pzeros at road atlanta, for a street tire, they hold up great(only minor blistering)

but for compeditive use, I'll be running some Pzero corsa probably.

My best advice for you is to make sure you're suspension is capable of utilizing the tires grip abilities, from what it sounds like, the tire is being "overworked", not just by what you're doing, but by your cars suspension.

also, you may want to take your vehicle to a race-worthy alignment tech, that can help more then most people realise. get it set pre-race, and set back afterwards.-chet

[Grant@tirerack]

Springs, adjustable dampers, and negative camber would go a long way to correct that problem. With the street stock suspension and street tires, you either have to slow down or be ready to replace more tires.

[Def]

My stock E36 M3 is admittedly much stiffer than a stock 240SX suspension, but a little bit more negative camber does WONDERS for evening out the wear as C-Kwik stated.

I'll also have to disagree that a slight amount of negative camber causes excessive wear on the street. As long as your toe is set to zero, or very close to zero - you can run "reasonable" amounts of negative camber with no ill effects. I was running a hair over -2* on the street and things were just fine with zero toe. Now I'm running about -1.3* due to anticipation of lowering the car. Although with an E36 you can add negative camber with 20 cents of washers from a hardware store and about 20 minutes of time.

ES100's aren't all that grippy of a street tire compared to things like Kumho MXs or Bridgestone S03's, so don't downgrade the tire - upgrade the driver! Camber plates won't do anything more than allow you to use the tires more effectively with your stock camber curves. You might want to upgrade the springs and shocks at this time if you think you'll be doing alot more driving schools in the future since you're already in there.

Don't worry too much about the "not upgrading your car" mantra - because honestly, some cars just can't take the abuse of track driving in stock form without tearing up consumables like tires or brake pads(as you are finding out). It'll be easier on your wallet in the long run if you bite the bullet and get a setup that can handle your hobby much better. Don't go crazy with your suspension, but something reasonably stiffer and a good damper with some more negative camber up front should do wonders.

I see tirerack.com has some eccentric upper/lower strut bolts that can give you some negative camber for cheap. The only thing is that I hear they can slip easily and result in erratic handling - which doesn't sound too fun on the track. I wouldn't trust them, but it's an option. I'd just bite the bullet and at the least get some camber plates, then think about some dampers(Konis or KYB are good IMO), then look at a spring that offers a moderate ~1" drop or so with good rates.

[C-Kwik]

Keep in mind that C-Kwik's method ignores tire longevity(since you mentioned you will be using the same tires for daily driving). It's well known that severe camber increases tire temperature on the edge with the greatest load applied. Heat is the enemy of all tires. So is uneven load distribution...which causes excess heat. Both will cause problems for you... if your plans are to run at the track, then drive the car to work the next day.

Whenever you adjust camber in a DIY fashion, and then skip a proper wheel alignment, you will sacrifice tire life....costing you more money.

I think your budget will be your only limitation. Most common question I hear is "how much will they cost", not "how well do they handle"

P.S. if you plan on running trackdays frequently, I suggest saving some cash for a set of track-only wheels/tires(AO32R, RA-1, etc). A hassle to switch them out, but well worth it, as your street tires won't be subjected to severe punishment and premature wear. Having two sets of application-specific wheels/tires saves money in the long run.

-Phil

Actually, after the camber plates and still running the -3 degrees of camber, my tires have already outlasted my last two sets. Flipped it once on the wheels about 6 months ago, but showed very little sign of uneven wear. I probably have another 6 months on these tires. Most tires last me about a year at most. I put these on my car about a month before last years convention which almost exactly 1 year ago. And they have seen track time and very aggressive driving.

As far as heat, driving on the street produces relatively low amounts of heat. Uless you are running extreme amounts of camber, I doubt the tires will see a significant amount of heat. At a track, you see much more heat. But if you watch cars with front strut suspensions with little to no static camber, you'll find most will overheat the outer treadblocks first. For the best results, you'll want to use a pyrometer to measure heat at different parts of the tires to tune, but you want to try and get the suspension roughly where it should be before doing the fine tuning. One day on a track will tell you all about what your tires dont like and a lot about what you need to fix.

[SmithSR]

One year is unnacceptable to the majority of tire buyers. So is bringing your car into the shop, aside from your rotation schedule, or any other issues...to have tires flipped over on rims for a fee. While you and I may consider this fine & dandy, the average guy who ran his car at a track once probably will not accept this constant fiddling. Might get lucky and find a guy who is interested in learning the nuances of such things, but the overwhelming majority of "every now & then" auto-x cars that see mainly street duty, will not be pleased with the constant hassle.

If you think heat isn't generated on a car with severe camber, tell that to the hundreds of tough little men who come in mad at me after they dump their car on the ground, and do nothing to correct alignment....then proceed to drive 15K "cruisin" and next thing you know, he's got steel belts showing on inside edge of all tires. I see this daily.... so does any tire man in a city/area with high volumes of business.

Problem is, kids read something in a magazine, or was told something like it won't cost him more in the long run. Your tires are unevenly loaded and generating more heat than they would under normal conditions. The fact that you had to flip tires over is proof that you are, in effect, abusing the tires...working them beyond their intended design....resulting in early wear...necessitating flipping them over. A big nasty downward spiral that costs extra money, and takes away time from enjoying the driving experience.

-Phil:rant

[Grant@tirerack]

I have to go with Phil on this one. A true track setup on camber is going to eat up street tires in daily driving. I guess it all boils down to how much time you are going to spend tracking the car vs. how you use the car the other 360 days of the year. Track setups take trial and error to fine tune. Once you have the correct camber dialed in with plates it's easier to switch back to your street setup after the event or driving school. You'll have both settings indexed. If you plan to do more than a few schools or events a year, it may make sense to go with plates. The camber adjustment hardware we sell will vary from car to car depending on what Eibach spring kits require. They are designed to get the car back into factory camber specs with the lowering springs, not to increase camber. It would be best to use something designed for track use. I think that is what Def was getting at and I agree. These hardware kits work fine for street use but most don't offer the ability to quickly change settings back for street use etc...

[Exar-Kun]

Im staying out of this. Everyone knows my stance on it anyway

play nice :p-chetEDIT: I will say one thing, excessive negatvie camber, without correcting toe will cause far more wear than camber alone, in fact, a positive toe angle with too much negative camber can create some nasty wear....

[Grant@tirerack]

For those of you who did not catch that, tires scrubbing sideways + more force on inner side of tread = quickly appearing shiny steel fibers !:eek:

[Exar-Kun]

yeah, ala an audi S4 wearing out pilot sports in 3,000 miles.(all inner edge)-chet

[SmithSR]

Yikes! What a brutal way to kill such good tires...

-Phil

[C-Kwik]

I agree a majority of buyers will be looking for more life out of a tire. But the same concepts still apply to just about any tire. As far as flipping the tires, it was absolutely necessary in order to rotate the tires. I run a staggered set-up with directional tires. The difference in inner and outer tire wear was not enough in that of itself to flip the tires. In fact the shop was absolutely surprised to see such good wear. Probably a disappointment to them considering they make money off of selling tires.

As far as these though little men you speak of, you are talking of those that do nothing to correct the alignment after lowering a car. There is a difference between what you describe and what I do(0 toe, 3 degrees negative camber). I think most people in here will find it pretty obvious that a poor alignment will kill tires. Apples and Oranges my friend.

[SmithSR]

Totally agree. I wasn't coming after you, but I was speaking to a broad audience about a broad subject. Most people will not do two things that you do:

1. evaluate alignment when considering a rare day at the track2. make themselves aware of alignment, and how it changes when you alter ride height.

I'd say the ratio of informed, interested drivers to those who just sit down, turn the key and go: 1/10

From several years of working in a tire store, and talking with fellow tire retailers from all across America, I've concluded that there is and always will be an overwhelming majority of uninformed drivers. These drivers will be doing half-arsed work for as long as they attempt to modify their cars. We must always mention and include these people in any discussion, because these are the people glancing at message boards and magazines, then heading out to the garage to perform a DIY "track setup alignment". When they get bored with working on their car, and don't bother setting the car back to spec, they get upset that their tires are worn out. Don't assume I'm talking about you, as it seems you know what you're doing.

"most people in here" may find it pretty obvious that poor alignment will kill tires, but that doesn't mean the problem is any less severe. People are still ruining tires on every street in every city....so apparently the message still isn't being clearly recieved.

[MrFox]

Quote »I see tirerack.com has some eccentric upper/lower strut bolts that can give you some negative camber for cheap. The only thing is that I hear they can slip easily and result in erratic handling - which doesn't sound too fun on the track. I wouldn't trust them, but it's an option. I'd just bite the bullet and at the least get some camber plates.[/quote]

Are the camber plates worth the 10x additional cost over the eccentric bolts? In addition to the cost, the strut tower needs to be cut for the plates in S13s. It appears both types are held in place by bolt friction (See pics). What would be the relative safety margin of either setup slipping under heavy side loading?

[Exar-Kun]

camber plates dont have the horrible tendency to move under high-load cornering, or op out of adjustmnet like eccentric bolts do.

also,if I may vernture so far, the BEST way to adjust camber would be an adjustble control arm...

heres my rankings:-cam bolt-Pillow mount/camber plate-control arm

worst to best methods of adjusting camber. to me, upper adjustable pillows are worth the cost.-chet