Time is running out for a two-state solution?

[szh]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...shtml

Unfortunately, if true, this makes things just that much more difficult in the Mid-East ... for the long-term ... if we cannot implement the old UN mandate anymore.

Argh.

Z

[Jacko3]

Until Palestinia and the arabs in diaspora accepts the right of isreal to exist and live peacefuly with its neighbors, a two state solution is improbable. There will be any more years of fighting in that region.

[Armelius]

There was supposed to be a two state solution before Israel was established. What happened?

[Jacko3]

I am not aware of this information. But I do know that prior to WWII, much of the region currently inhabited by Isrealis was mostly inhabited by Palestinians. Jerusalem was mostly a palestinain enclave during that period.

[bobotech]

Isn't there ANYWHERE else that the palestinians can go besides the West Bank?

I mean there are thousands of miles of uninhabited areas in the mid east, there should be somewhere where they can go that they won't be attacked by Israel.

[Jacko3]

Thats the point! What if someone came and pushed you out of your house and then told you to go live in the house down the street, knowing that every morning, on your way to work, you get to see your house occupied by someone else, and there is nothing you can do about it, how would you feel---happy and justified or forever aggravated and disgruntled????????? This si the Plaestinian experience.

On the other hand, isreal's existence is important. They have a right to exist on this planet as any other. And so their existence must be guaranteed at all cost. I don't know of anyone who is happy waking up every morning, knowing that their next door neighbor wants to exterminate them and their off-springs every single waking day. Thats a terrible feeling to have to live with everyday. This is the Isreali experience.

So, both parties have legitimate claims. The questions is, can we find the middle ground????? This is the basis of the two-state solution.

[OriginalWheelman]

Isn't there ANYWHERE else that the palestinians can go besides the West Bank?

I mean there are thousands of miles of uninhabited areas in the mid east, there should be somewhere where they can go that they won't be attacked by Israel.

Why doesn't Israel?

[Bubba1]

Why doesn't Israel?

One word.....Jerusalem. You'll find this little plot of land is the heart of the dispute between the Palestinians and Israel. Israel considers it the spiritual capital of Judaism, an thus it's home. It also happens to be the 3rd holiest city in Islam, and the Palestinians assumed West Jerusalem (formerly controlled by Jordan), would become the capital of their new state, that is, if they could stop their infighting. And to complicate mattersit;s also home to some very important Christian sites.

[OriginalWheelman]

I understand that. My point is both parties have a claim to the area. If you go far enough back a lot of people do. Should Italy get to claim it because the Romans occupied it? The point is they are all there now, and those people need to make it work. Forget who used to own what, and decide who will own what from now on, and leave it at that. Neither side is blameless, neither side is wrong, neither side is right.

[Bubba1]

The point is they are all there now, and those people need to make it work. Forget who used to own what, and decide who will own what from now on, and leave it at that. Neither side is blameless, neither side is wrong, neither side is right.

It's easier said than done. That's the problem. It's going to require movement on both sides, (neither of whom are anxious to cooperate with the other) as well as cooperation by their arab neighbors (who also aren't anxious to put themselves in the middle).

[liquid_cool]

this has been an age old question for 3 thousand years..the jewish people have inhabited that land long before Palestinians..after the roman empire cause a mass exodus from what is was Israel and palistine..the jews have been spread across that whole continent...only after an accord after WW2 did they reoccupy Israel under agreement for peace..so what happend?..the extreme wackos started to fume hatred for the jews and pay for terrorlst acts..even thou..Israel keeps its citys as muliti-populous citys...you wont find jews living in Arab cites..but you will find arabs living in jewish ones..racism is ruling this debate..not logic...untill the jewish people find a way to combat the propaganda the extremist sling..they will always be a target of racism and class envy.

[bobotech]

Why doesn't Israel?

I dunno. I guess I just don't care as much about the palestinians as I do the Israelis. The palestinians appear to instigate the terrorlst style activities. Then Israel retaliates and then the palestinians get all bent out of shape because Israel can use their more extensive military resources to serve them payback with.

[Cold_Zero]

Just to fine tune some things:

this has been an age old question for 3 thousand years..the jewish people have inhabited that land long before Palestinians..after the roman empire cause a mass exodus from what is was Israel and palistine..the jews have been spread across that whole continent

Under the Roman Empire the area would either be Judea, Arabia Petraea, or Syria, depending on where you are. Those words (that you used) affixed to the area are really modern day labels used to invoke certain political and or past religious reactions. And yes, because of the leveling of Jerusalem and the subsequent mass exodus, Jews now live in Diaspora from the America’s to Russia to India (where they happened to be targeted in the Mumbai Attacks by Pakistani Militants.) It should be noted that a lot of Islamic Middle Eastern countries have large Jewish Communities in their country. And they seem to have no problem with them.

Quote »...only after an accord after WW2 did they reoccupy Israel under agreement for peace..[/quote]

The founding of the modern State of Israel is not that easy. Roughly, you have the British Mandate after WWI, you have the UN Partition Plan after WWII and then you have Israel declaring its independence in 1948 through war. But over a long period time you have mass movements of people moving to the land of Palestine.

Quote »so what happend?..the extreme wackos started to fume hatred for the jews and pay for terrorlst acts[/quote]I hope you are aware that both sides of this conflict have more than enough whackos and fundamentalists to go around. I remember watching a show on Bat Ayin and all the craziness that (yes) Jews did to ‘preserve their ancestral homeland’ in and around this Jewish Settlement. It was not beneath these Jews to target a Girls Muslim schools with a trailer bomb. Imagine if you will grade school girls showing up for class in the morning with a bomb going off right in front of their school. Luckily the trailer got a flat tire and the police happened to notice that two Hassidic Jews acting funny and thought that looked suspicious for the neighborhood. They stopped the whole mess. Settlers went to war with Israeli Engineers who were ordered to bulldoze their Settlement down, because it was ruled illegal by the Israeli Government. I won’t even get into what the SLA did in Lebanon with Israel’s help.

Quote »..even thou..Israel keeps its citys as muliti-populous citys...you wont find jews living in Arab cites..but you will find arabs living in jewish ones..racism is ruling this debate..not logic...untill the jewish people find a way to combat the propaganda the extremist sling..they will always be a target of racism and class envy.[/quote]Please don’t get me wrong, I am sympathetic towards Israel, when they are not f**king up Lebanon. But there are Christians that live in areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority (like Nazareth) where being a non Muslim is not a problem. I can count dozens of countries (Iran for one, where one of the official religions is Judaism) that have large excepted Jewish Communities. What typically is the breaking point in the region is not necessarily Judaism, as much as Zionism and Israel (itself) that pisses people off towards Israel.

[szh]

What typically is the breaking point in the region is not necessarily Judaism, as much as Zionism and Israel (itself) that pisses people off towards Israel.

Agreed! It is fundamentally a political problem, not a religious one. Unfortunately, people on every side want to make it a religious issue ...

And, as always, (general comment for everybody, not aimed at you at all, Bud!) let's not go there in here at NICO, please!

Z

[Cold_Zero]

Z,I think that people understand religious conflict much better than they do political, ethnic or national conflict. It is much easy for people to draw a line to differentiate Us vs. Them. They don't understand that Northern Ireland was more about who would control the ship yards Northern Ireland than Protestants vs. Romanists.

[liquid_cool]

On the political side of this..there can only be peace throu war!..isrial should level all agressors once and for all...everytime they stop fighting when hezbollah or what ever terrorlst nation is getting a beeting crys..they just end up giving that group / nation time to re-arm and plan attacks again..this will never stop..untill they win against there foe's.

[szh]

Z,I think that people understand religious conflict much better than they do political, ethnic or national conflict. It is much easy for people to draw a line to differentiate Us vs. Them.

They don't understand that Northern Ireland was more about who would control the ship yards Northern Ireland than Protestants vs. Romanists.

You are indeed right on both points, yes!

Z

[Cold_Zero]

Now we just need to talk about A.Q. Khan being released from house arrest in Pakistan..

[liquid_cool]

Z,I think that people understand religious conflict much better than they do political, ethnic or national conflict. It is much easy for people to draw a line to differentiate Us vs. Them. They don't understand that Northern Ireland was more about who would control the ship yards Northern Ireland than Protestants vs. Romanists.

i dint know the fight was about shipping in reality..where can i read up on this cold?

[Cold_Zero]

Yeah, obviously the disagreement has always centered around remaining a part of the UK in which you would be a Loyalist (Ulster) or re-uniting with Ireland which would make you a Nationalist (Republican after the Republic of Ireland). To say that it was only about ship yards is not the full story. But Northern Ireland has a lot of heavy industry, including the shipyards and building which has always been important to a Kingdom (Empire) that is an island and needs a good Navy to protect its interests. Thus it remains a very important focus of the conflict.Religious conflict between the Protestants (Orange) and Romanists (Green) has always been assumed as being the reason for the conflict. When in all actuality Scotland, the Republic of Ireland and England all have a mixture of Protestant and Romanist populations that have no real religious conflict with each other. Northern Ireland has always been a political conflict over the which country they would join/remain with. It should be noted that the Republic of Ireland officially never wanted Northern Ireland as they didnt want to 'rock the boat' with the UK, since there is a lot of trade that goes on between the two.

[liquid_cool]

that regon of the world interest me..i have never studied there history..can ya recomend a few books that out line there political strife?