Thoughs of M3

[bware113]

Hello all,

I've been on this forum for a while now and have owned 2 240(S14,S13). On Friday my 13's crankshaft came through the block, under normal hwy driving, and thus sped up my search for a newer vehicle. I will keep it for a future auto-x/money dump project. I will miss that car.

I was thinking of getting a G35 until I ran across an M over the weekend. Now, Im thinking of joining the ///M family and was wondering of the two Ms I was looking at they are both right at 100k. One being SMG and the other be 6speed. I understand the steep maintenance cost for the M but arent sure of 'break-down' frequency or necessity of maintenance for the M. How many long time M or 3 series drivers can vouch for the reliability of the M after 100k?

All responses are greatly appreciated.

Note- most of my miles will be to and from work. I probably do maybe 10-12k on a car per year.

[sbird1]

Have you looked at the M1? Everything I have heard on them is extremely positive.

[MinisterofDOOM]

M1:


1M:

[sbird1]

Damn it. I was trying to avoid that.

[Bubba1]

Hello all,

I've been on this forum for a while now and have owned 2 240(S14,S13). On Friday my 13's crankshaft came through the block, under normal hwy driving, and thus sped up my search for a newer vehicle. I will keep it for a future auto-x/money dump project. I will miss that car.

I was thinking of getting a G35 until I ran across an M over the weekend. Now, Im thinking of joining the ///M family and was wondering of the two Ms I was looking at they are both right at 100k. One being SMG and the other be 6speed. I understand the steep maintenance cost for the M but arent sure of 'break-down' frequency or necessity of maintenance for the M. How many long time M or 3 series drivers can vouch for the reliability of the M after 100k?

All responses are greatly appreciated.

Note- most of my miles will be to and from work. I probably do maybe 10-12k on a car per year.

You neglected to mention the model years of the M3's.

[bware113]

You neglected to mention the model years of the M3's.

My appologies. I am looking at years '01-03' approx as they fall in my price point.

[AZ89two4Tsx]

I wouldn't be concerned at all about anything "catastrophic" happening. BMW is notorious for having reliable engines.

What will be expensive though is all the parts and basic maintenance. Having owned a BMW, the parts for them can easily be double or triple that of something for an s-chassis. Even basic things like an oil change. My M60 took 8 quarts of oil. I know the big 6's have a large capacity as well. That being said though, if you get quality parts, (dealer, lemforder, etc...) they will last a LONG time. If you're only used to working on 240s and such, the amount of engineering put in these cars is truly impressive.

Also, if you're getting a higher mileage one, I would definitely go for the 6-speed. The SMG is an extremely complicated transmission and will be outrageous to have replaced.

.....Have you looked into the 330i ZHP? They're just a step below the M as far as E46s go.

[bware113]

I have seen the very specific oil change orders, TWS 10W-60, that are needed for the M. And I've worked on very few BMWs through a brief apprenticeship with certified BMW mechanic. So it's only slightly foreign to my realm of knowledge. I suppose that maitenance cost and things are to be expected when dealing with ve german engineering.

I drove the SMG and honestly it left something to be desired. I feel as though the 6sp is a better fit for me as my left foot was just itching for a task to handle. But it was balls fast.

I looked at a 330ci and haven't seen any ZHP models available currently. I find it peculiar that the 330's ride height is actually lower than the M.

[PEZi]

What model are these? E46? You need to be completely sure that the subframes are still in tact. The E46 model M3 (well... all 3 series) have subframe issues and crack and break over time. 100k is definitely that time. You'll want to have them inspected for subframe damage before purchasing, and then get them reinforced immediately after buying. There is actually a subframe reinforcement process on these cars because it is so common. Just need to find a trusted local shop that can do it.

Also, around this time, the front control arm bushings will be gone. If those have not been replaced yet... its time! And then comes the water pump... its time for that at 100k as well.

I could keep on going with ALL the crap that needs to be done at 100k on those cars, but those are the main ones. Basically, at 100k, if the things I listed above have not been done..... that car better be damn cheap!

[bware113]

Yes they are in fact E46 models. Thanks I will be sure to ask about all of the following. About how much is would each of those jobs run as far as repair cost so that can negotiate the prices accordingly.

[AZ89two4Tsx]

Ahhhh yes, the good old control arm bushings. Very common thing to wear out on 3 and 5 series.

Honestly though, if you can't do most of the basic suspension maintenance by yourself, I would stay away from BMWs. Many shops will require you to use their parts so you won't be able to score good deals on stuff like arms/bushings. Also, if you're looking at cars with around 100K, maintenance items will need to start getting replaced.

I remember the quote I got on my front control arms was like $300 for parts and a couple hundred for labor...

[bware113]

The front strut bar is a stock component in the M3 suspension correct? I have gotten mixed info about it. This is not an option/mod from what I understand. It should most definitely be present right?

[PEZi]

Yes they are in fact E46 models. Thanks I will be sure to ask about all of the following. About how much is would each of those jobs run as far as repair cost so that can negotiate the prices accordingly.

Subframe reinforcement is around $1000, water pump and thermostat job is in the neighborhood of $700 and then the control arm bushings are going to be about $300 and then an alignment. These prices all include labor. A little more research will get you to know more about them, like how the M3 parts don't fail as often as the non-M... but that also has to do with how the car is driven. If the car has, or ever will see track use, the subframe reinforcement is a MUST. Being that you are looking at M3's v. non-M's, the control arm bushings will last a tad longer as they are a better rubber and the thermostat and water pump are engineered better as well. Again, all depends on how this car was driven, so get to know the owner. Also, a bit of piece of mind, the thermostat is set to fail open so that the car won't overheat.

[Jesda]

SMG is terrible. Effing terrible.

Otherwise, enjoy the ride.

E46 subframe issues supposedly only affect cars built before 2000.

[PEZi]

E46 subframe issues supposedly only affect cars built before 2000.

WAY wrong... lol. Here is a nice video... and here is a cute little article (notice the pics of later model years).

I have personally known of later model E46 owners with subframe issues... its not the pre-2000 models only.

[Jesda]

E46 subframe issues supposedly only affect cars built before 2000.

WAY wrong... lol. Here is a nice video... and here is a cute little article.

Ruh roh. Years ago when I had my E46 vert the guys at E46fanatics saw a large number of '99s that were affected. I guess the remaining ones finally caught up.

[PEZi]

Indeed they did... just took them a few thousand more miles.

[Jesda]

Some details:
http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/showth ... p?t=815237


--
BMW tried to resolve the problem by putting a newly designed rear subfloor after MY 2002 as well as putting a cross member in the front of the rear diff carrier, but the problem still persists.
The chances of any E46(M or non-M) having a ripped/cracked subfloor after 2002 is very slim but, as the data shows it still happens.
Worn out diff carrier bushes as well as worn out diff bushes also contribute to the problem.
--
Most of the subframe failures are on years 1999-2000. 2001 and later models had stonger reinforced subframes, but a small percentage of them still cracked.
--
If she gets it repaired, BMW will pay for a certain percentage depending on the car's model and year, shape, maintenance history, presence of after-market parts, length of ownership... The percentage varies between 0 and 100.
--




WELL FOLKS, HAVE FUN WITH THAT.


Actually for just a grand to fix, its not a dealbreaker for me. I'm occasionally sniffing around the internets for another E46. The Q45's timing chain guides and Cadillac's Northstar head gaskets have trained me to believe that every luxury car out there has a "checking account drain tube" lurking under the sheet metal.

[Bubba1]

SMG is terrible. Effing terrible.

Otherwise, enjoy the ride.

.

Yes and no. If you track the car, and set the SMG to it's track settings (A5? - been a few years), the shifts are so quick, it instantly lowers your lap times but it also takes some of the fun out out of the track experience, IMHO.
The BMW SMG's are durable but they are also complex, which means sticker shock if/when they need repair. How long beyond 100K milesdepends on how well the previous owners treated/maintained it over the 10 years. If they tracked the car, you'll probably be looking at transmission work in the near future. For that reason, I'd advise a 6 speed over SMG.

IF you're looking at a pure DD, I'd advise a newer G35 over an older M3. the G is less expensive to maintain/repair. If you intend to use it on an occasional track day, the 6spd M3 gains more appeal,
But the real answer is for you to drive both and see which suits you better.

[bware113]

I honestly like the M the most out of anything I have tested thus far.

The car had all major repairs done RTABs, Rear subframe bushings and Inspection I & II. Didn't adjust the valves on II but all seems to be fine. He's had it at the BMW dealer looking for subframe issues and they didnt find any, if they did they would have fixed it then. I do not believe the waterpump has been done though.

I am scheduling to meet up with him Weds and do a PPI check at the BMW dealer to further check the subframe condition. If all checks out I will probably make this purchase. All seems to be in order.

Any suggestions on how to bargain as it's not one of my strong suits. He is asking 17.5 for an 02 w/ approx. 105k on the vehicle. I was thinking 16 flat or 16.5 is a good price as far as age and mileage goes. It seems well maintained but dont really know where to go from there.

[PEZi]

The price is actually very fair if it is well maintained. If all checks out at the dealer, you can try and talk him down a little, but don't expect much out of him. The price is actually good.

[Jesda]

The BMW SMG's are durable

They are grenades that sap the joy out of motoring.

[bware113]

Yeah it really is. The front strut tower bar is missing(this is standard correct?), is probably due for brakes soon, water pump hasnt been replaced and valves werent adjusted at Insp. II? I believe these items as well as a few cosmetic things should get me down to 16 flat...I hope.

[frapjap]

Any suggestions on how to bargain as it's not one of my strong suits. He is asking 17.5 for an 02 w/ approx. 105k on the vehicle. I was thinking 16 flat or 16.5 is a good price as far as age and mileage goes. It seems well maintained but dont really know where to go from there.

To hell with negogiations. Tell him 16 is what you're willing to offer and you're taking it off his hands today. When he says 17 (which he'll most certainly do), say 16. When he says 16-8, say 16. When he says 16-5, say 16. Keep a firm face. Hes probably going to bust your balls about what they're losing, blah blah blippity blah. After that to which you reply with your own ball busting comment, "its $500, no one is going to get rich or poor over it. 16 and I'll leave happily and you'll have sold a car."

If they still don't budge (which is unlikely), pick up your belongings and leave. You'll find a better deal. Its just a hunk of metal after all.

ALSO- DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING- especially if it says, "bware113 will buy this car today if x,y,z are met."

[bware113]

Earlier today we settled at 16450 pending PPI, leak check, and VANOS inspection. Not bad at all IMO. He was a good guy so I worked with him and gave a little.

[PEZi]

Sounds good man! If you need any modification help in the future.... you know where to turn.

[bware113]

Thanks man. This will always be my go-to forum. It's not final yet. Gotta get a good PPI first.

Will post pics pending an actual purchase.

[bware113]

Sorry I never came back. But here is my purchase I made about a month ago. Thus far I am enjoying the vehicle. A very fun car.


NMU: Front End by @optikalblitz, on Flickr


Wrapped Roof by @optikalblitz, on Flickr


Old Car Heaven II by @optikalblitz, on Flickr


Brick Side II by @optikalblitz, on Flickr

Plan to start modding the 240 for track use. Should be fun.

[PEZi]

Thing looks hottt... Love the silver.

[Bubba1]

Thing looks hottt... Love the silver.

nice car, but you might have an even more fun on the track with the M3.