The World's First and Only Paddle Shifted 240sx

[naed240sx]

By the way, do the paddles move with the steering wheel, or stay in their locations? They seem awfully close to the wheel. Do your fingers not hit the paddles when using quick steering inputs?

[naed240sx]

Hmm I think it's pretty cool except like he stated, couldn't really drift with it could ya? But that all depends on what you're using your car for

You could drift with it just fine. You just couldn't use clutch kick or shift lock for initiation.

[moyea]

Thanks for all your posts! naed thanks for your post too. I share many of your sentiments. Actually most of your comments have been rebutted in my other post. Check it out once you have the time. I don't want this post to become a debate about which is better M/T or A/T but it seems to always turn out that way anytime the A/T is mentioned.

Here are some things everyone should consider:

#1 There is nothing gimmicky or impractical about this car. Aftermarket TCU upgrades are serious business reserved for those committed to the A/T. That single device has been the predominant factor in many championship cars. There's plenty of good links to this fact on PCS and TCI's websites.

The button,paddle,switch shifting is not a novel idea by any means. People have been using this kind of technology for decades in performance applications. It's new for this car however, duh. During my research for this project, I came across many exotic import sites. Yes, there are complaints about paddle shifting, 90% of which had nothing to do with performance and everything to do with resistance to change. Its hard for many purest to endorse such revolutionary concepts. Some people still curse FWDs for being on their track. I can assure you McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes, and even Honda would not be putting this concept in their F-1 cars if they didn't provide the best performance. Watch an F-1 race sometime, you'll see.

It is impossible for a human to out shift a computer! This is not an opinion, its a well known fact. I believe there is a link on my other post about brake reaction time. The same formula can be applied to shift reaction time but you'll need to add more time due to moving the stick and additional footwork. Try this fun experiment at home: Have a friend sit next to you with a stopwatch (100th of a sec. if possible). Yell "shift" each time you start your shift to let the timer know. Then go through the motions and stop. Check your times. How did you do? Now do it while driving and try different situations. What's your average? Now look and see how far your rpms drop while shifting. How much? Its a fun way to practice but the point is it only takes a few clicks of the mouse for me to beat any reaction time.

By the way, do the paddles move with the steering wheel, or stay in their locations? They seem awfully close to the wheel. Do your fingers not hit the paddles when using quick steering inputs?

Good question. Yes, the paddles move with the wheel. The only time your hands may hit the paddles is if you extend your fingers. Hand over hand will cause that problem at first but you'll quickly learn how to turn without hitting them. In an emergency, they shouldn't cause any issues. Like I stated, you learn proper form quickly. Spacers can be made to fit your banana hands.

Cost is around the same price of an M/T swap and can be cheaper (wont tell you how, yet.) Just another alternative.

I have not taken the time to drift the car. I'm certain it is possible and with the added benefit of transmission control.

Skepticism is one of the reasons this car is hitting the track. I see I will have to make a video with the car in action since nobody believes me. J/K! No, but seriously

J/K.

Seriously, this is the last time I'm going to rebut the transmission comparisons unless its a legitimate question. I've driven both and love them just the same. Save it for another topic or read my other post please

......must sleep

[PantherRacer]

It is impossible for a human to out shift a computer! This is not an opinion, its a well known fact. I believe there is a link on my other post about brake reaction time. The same formula can be applied to shift reaction time but you'll need to add more time due to moving the stick and additional footwork. Try this fun experiment at home: Have a friend sit next to you with a stopwatch (100th of a sec. if possible). Yell "shift" each time you start your shift to let the timer know. Then go through the motions and stop. Check your times. How did you do? Now do it while driving and try different situations. What's your average? Now look and see how far your rpms drop while shifting. How much? Its a fun way to practice but the point is it only takes a few clicks of the mouse for me to beat any reaction time.

THANK YOU! take THAT naed. PROOF!

[SR20Essex]

Please answer this one more question. I have long been interested in paddle shifting and rarely see it in any reasonably obtainable production car. But recently I have seen the appearance of a paddle shifting option on the C6 Corvette. After test driving the Paddle shifted version of the new Corvette I was not impressed. It seemed to lag during each shift; meaning you could hit the shifter and there was a noticeable delay in the time it would take for the transmission to shift (longer than it would take me given a 5spd manual and clutch). I can't bee too hard on them because its their first attempt at this technology.

Is the setup here is any different?

I’ve seen a show called "Top Gear" where a guy drove a Ferrari with the F1 transmission in it that had paddle shifters, and it was amazingly quick, but it does many things behind the scene to make that happen. And they have been perfecting that technology for many many years.

[eds13]

pretty flippin sweet!

[SeVa-S13]

pretty flippin sweet!

[TOPSECRT88]

Anyone have an idea on my previous question? Ohh and btw, you say this will run about the same price as 5spd swap. Is that price around $800.00? I don't think i'll be installing this myself, so hopefully a tuning shop (like AMS Performance) can tune and install it correctly.

[SeVa-S13]

The 240 Auto is a 4spd, and you will be controling the gear selection by controlling the TCU, I'd iamgine. So I don't think you'd lose gears for some reason.

[naed240sx]

It is impossible for a human to out shift a computer! This is not an opinion, its a well known fact. I believe there is a link on my other post about brake reaction time. The same formula can be applied to shift reaction time but you'll need to add more time due to moving the stick and additional footwork. Try this fun experiment at home: Have a friend sit next to you with a stopwatch (100th of a sec. if possible). Yell "shift" each time you start your shift to let the timer know. Then go through the motions and stop. Check your times. How did you do? Now do it while driving and try different situations. What's your average? Now look and see how far your rpms drop while shifting. How much? Its a fun way to practice but the point is it only takes a few clicks of the mouse for me to beat any reaction time.

Reaction time? There is no reaction time. Reaction time only comes into play when you cannot anticipate a trigger (for example, waiting for the light to turn green at a dragstrip). For upshifting, you have the tachometer, and can visibly see how many rpms you are at. You can shift EXACTLY when you want to.

It's totally possible to outshift a computer. The automatic transmission is designed to shift smoothly without jarring the passengers. It is more complicated than a manual transmission, and has more moving parts. It doesn't operate quickly.

When shifting a manual transmission hard, you shift into the next gear, before the rpms drop to the level that they would be at at that speed in the given gear, causing a difference in speed between the wheels and the car. This is why you can chirp your tires when shifting quickly. The 240sx automatic transmission cannot do this.

That experiment is innacurate and proves nothing. You can't have somebody time your shift, because the amount of time it takes just for the person to hit the start button on the timer after you yelling shift is enough to easily offset the actual time it takes to shift. So, in effect, your experiment is flawed because of your hailed REACTION TIME.

Im not saying that that every manual transmission is quicker and better than all automatics or paddle shifted automatics. Obviously they can be made to be far superior. Unfortunatly, it is not as simple as wiring into a stock 240sx automatic transmission.

[DesignedByKay]

cool

[moyea]

Is the setup here is any different?

I’ve seen a show called "Top Gear" where a guy drove a Ferrari with the F1 transmission in it that had paddle shifters, and it was amazingly quick, but it does many things behind the scene to make that happen. And they have been perfecting that technology for many many years.

Dont worry, I'll answer any legit questions. I just dont want to debate transmissions.

You basically answered your own question. The paddle shifting device has little to do with the speed of the shift; in fact, it only contibutes a 100th of a second to the equation. Almost nill. Shifting characteristics are almost completely controlled by the TCU. The C6 transmission was calibrated at the factory to provide reasonable shift times without risking driver's comfort. SM/Ts (F-1) are different but the principal is the same, shifting characteristics are controlled electronically. Shifts are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to TCU features.

So, yes and no. The set-up is the same except the fact that I can calibrate the transmission.

When I first started messing with the TCU, I had the shifts almost instantaneously. If you've ever played a video game and shifted manually using the controller, thats how fast I could row through the gears. Litterally break neck speeds. Trust me, you'll suffer from some whiplash if you got into my car back then. I have now adjusted for a more civil street/track mode:Shifts are smooth and comfortable unless I hit the gas, then it is quick and firm. Upshifts have been set with a measure of delay to maximize friction and traction. Downshifts are almost instant and engine braking has been reduced to combat weight transfer. I'm pleased but there is always room for improvement.

The 240 Auto is a 4spd, and you will be controling the gear selection by controlling the TCU, I'd iamgine. So I don't think you'd lose gears for some reason.

You maintain all your gears. 4 for the 240sx and 5 for the 350z. It universal so it doesn't matter what car you put it in.

Anyone have an idea on my previous question? Ohh and btw, you say this will run about the same price as 5spd swap. Is that price around $800.00? I don't think i'll be installing this myself, so hopefully a tuning shop (like AMS Performance) can tune and install it correctly.

Most shops around here will do the complete swap for $1700. Its cheaper than that. Even if all you wanted was the TCU, it would be around $700.

I should also mention that this is a one time investment. Since the TCU is universal, it can be used on an infinite number of cars throughout your lifetime. The same might be said about the Shrifter (with modification). Unless you want to take your M/T with you?

Installing it is as simple as removing a stereo unit. You can do eeeet! I doubt you'll be able to find a tuner that knows what it is. Its not terribly difficult just time consuming, like tunning an ECU. Besides, its fun to tinker.

One feature you cant take advantage of unless you take it to a tuner is Dyno Mode. There is more info about it on the PCS website.

Keep the questions coming and visit my sponsor's website.
Modified by moyea at 7:49 AM 6/13/2006

[TOPSECRT88]

Thanks for the help, i'm thinking i may attempt this..I'd really like to see some videos to see how it works in action.

[moyea]

naed240sx I like your input, you provide very intelligent replies. Mad respect, mon. You're right, reaction time would be the incorrect term. Reaction time does imply a response to an unexpected situation. Neural response time would be a more appropriate term. As it is a measure of the synaptic response to the motor function. Anticipated or not, the mathematical formula is the same. There is a course in college that discusses neural response time called, Biological Psychology. Psych was my major.

Try the experiment anyways, its fun. If you can keep the drop less than 100 rpms, your the shiznit. I know you can do it naed240sx!

Im not saying that that every manual transmission is quicker and better than all automatics or paddle shifted automatics. Obviously they can be made to be far superior. Unfortunately, it is not as simple as wiring into a stock 240sx automatic transmission.

I applaud you for this statement and it makes a good point. Anybody reading this who thinks that plugging a magic box on your car will turn you into Speed Racer. Think again! Just like throwing a short shifter and clutch shouldn't be the only thing you do to your M/T. Transmission can make or break your ride if you don't know what you are doing. Everybody should take time to consider what it is they want from their car. Knowledge is the key. Be prepared to dedicate your time and effort to gain the best results possible.
Modified by moyea at 3:14 AM 6/12/2006

[HashiriyaS14]

Wow.....this is super cool.

I think this is the coolest thing since people started ITB'ing KA's.

[ddgsxr504]

Although the paddle idea is sweet, I still would rather go with the HKS Silvia sequential gearbox!!

The only downside is it costs $11,000

[moyea]

Although the paddle idea is sweet, I still would rather go with the HKS Silvia sequential gearbox!!

The only downside is it costs $11,000

Yeah, I came across that too while doing my research and was like, "Hmmmm, would I pay twice as much as the car is worth? No!"

Maybe I'll work on something for the M/T after this car hits the track.

[hannibal]

Schweeeeet!!!

Ingenius idea. Extensive research. Brilliant execusion... Nice job!!

[240TweakerNewbee]

Please answer this one more question. I have long been interested in paddle shifting and rarely see it in any reasonably obtainable production car. But recently I have seen the appearance of a paddle shifting option on the C6 Corvette. After test driving the Paddle shifted version of the new Corvette I was not impressed. It seemed to lag during each shift; meaning you could hit the shifter and there was a noticeable delay in the time it would take for the transmission to shift (longer than it would take me given a 5spd manual and clutch). I can't bee too hard on them because its their first attempt at this technology.

Is the setup here is any different?

I’ve seen a show called "Top Gear" where a guy drove a Ferrari with the F1 transmission in it that had paddle shifters, and it was amazingly quick, but it does many things behind the scene to make that happen. And they have been perfecting that technology for many many years.

Someone help me with this: How long does it take for the car to switch gears after you hit the paddle shifter? Is it instantanious or is there a second of lag or two seconds... miliseconds perhaps? I know you guys have said the system sends the signal to the transmission instantaniously but the transmission is not instant.

[moyea]

I thought I answered that question?

Remember, the mechanical part has to do with your transmission and TCU set-up. In other words, I cant give exact times because each set-up is different.

Here is an answer from J.Ballenger of Powertrain Control Solutions:

"There are a couple of issues at play here. The first is the mechanical/fluid delay which is by far the most significant. Secondarily there is an electrical delay. In all, the electrical delay amounts to something on the order or 0.1-0.2 seconds. The fluid delay/shift delay is significantly longer taking something on the order of 0.8 - 3.0 seconds. The first way to get a faster shift is to firm up the line pressure. This will make the shifts harsher but faster. There are a lot of people who modify their valve bodies for greater flow or to reduce or eliminate the acummulators (shift softeners). In terms of making the electrical event faster, the only parameter you can adjust is digital debounce in the digital input chart. The lower you go with this value, the more likely you are to get a false trigger to cause a shift event. Digital debounce is the time period for which the input has to be active to be considered valid."

I've set and clocked mine a 0.76 sec. @ 50% TPS. That means, with the accelerator pressed 50%(half of WOT) it take 0.76 seconds to shift to the next gear. It's faster at WOT. There is still a lot of tuning I must do till I'll be happy, and then I get to do it all over again when I install my performance torque converter and valve body.

Demetrios Karagiannis' RX-7: Video at http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.comHe seems to be shifting at way faster than me.

Here is a crappy video of me driving and trying to hold the camera in traffic. Sorry you cant see me pull the paddles, you can sorta hear it though. I'll make a better one later.

http://www.vidiLife.com/index....25549
Modified by moyea at 2:27 AM 6/14/2006

[Bumnah]

Cool stuff man.

I've never met anyone which such a dedication to automatics.

I perfer manual myself. I love to kick that 3 pedal.

Show a video of the system working.

[moyea]

Yeah, that video blows. My fault. There is a better one on the http://www.twistmachine.com site with Steve's sick arse Camaro.

Actually I'm dedcated to transmissions(drivetrains), period. I think they are the most interesting part of the car. If I had the time, money, and knowledge I would do a true SM/T conversion or a AWD conversion. But I couldn't be more happy with the Shrifter.

[s13swaaangin]

This is an amaizing writeup. You can tell youve researched extensively, which is rare these days. Keep us updated

[RazoE]

NIIIIIIIICE!!!

if i had kept my 240, i would have definitely gone this route...

while i have more fun driving stick, i still love autos..

[rico05]

Lame and a half.

[Logan76]

This is a really cool and quite ingenious idea...i really like what u did with it and it was a nice clean install...looks great and is a new option for all a/t owners out there...keep up the great work man...

[moyea]

Show a video of the system working.

I changed the video a little but it still sucks. When I have the time I'll make some better videos.

[moyea]

Open Track Testing: Debut at Willow Springs International Motorsports Park

Initially the car had a poor showing in the first session due to my unfamiliarity to the course. Ill timed shifts caused the car to bog down in the technical turns of the track because I was more concerned with steering the car. It also didn’t help that I was out classed by every car in my group (i.e. 350z, M3, G35, Carrera, 500hp+ Corvette, etc.)

For the second run I switched the paddle shifter off in order learn the race line and limits of the car. I was also curious to see the difference between the two configurations in regards to performance. Calibration A (automatic mode), was set for a more comfortable ride with less line pressure and less shift firmness. The car was quicker this time around but some of shifts were done in some inopportune moments or weren’t done at all. For example; turn 2 could be taken with no braking, 3rd gear, up 80% throttle. In Cal.A, the car would come in to the turn in 4th with the TC locked up causing me to apply some brake. The car would also shift about mid turn before I am ready. Or after turn 5, which requires heavy downhill braking, there is incline that leads to the back straightaway which should be taken at full throttle. But the car stays in 4th at low rpm due to the previous braking and slowly drags itself up the rpms even at full throttle. These were the exact problems I set out to remedy with this project.

Third time is the charm! With two runs ingrained in my mind, I flipped the paddle shifter back on and hit the track with a vengeance. This time I knew exactly what gears I needed to be in for each turn and the car and the Shrifter performed like magic. Shifts were fast, accurate, and easy. Calibration B (true manual mode), was set for maximum line pressure and shift firmness. Downshifts were safe due to the configurations made available by the PCS TCU. For example, you can set the rev limiter for the transmission that way there is no risk of over-revving in the downshift. Also with engine brake reduced, the braking characteristics are greatly improved since the car no longer lunges forward with the downshift. The paddle shifter allowed me to remain in the optimal rpm range through out the turns which produced faster times on the track. In fact, I stopped getting passed and started doing the passing.

Last session was a lot like the third except for the fact that I held back a little on the straight-aways. I had to make a 6 hour return trip through the hot dessert and didn’t want to push it. Overall the Shrifter and PCS TCU performed wonderfully and is a great addition to any A/T project car destined for the open track.

P.O.I.s

• W/ or w/o the Shrifter turned on, transmission temps never exceeded 210F. Oil temp always got to 250F (short sweep gauge). Water temp would be slightly above mid-level after 20 minutes. *These temperatures are not uncommon even though an oil cooler may be necessary in the future.

• Paddles never interfered with the operation of the vehicle. (i.e. hitting my hands, turn signals, etc.)

• Met and had a conversation with Formula Drift racer Taka Aono. We talked mostly about Japan and I showed him the Shrifter.

• The instructor, which I allowed to drive the car for a couple laps, was thrilled with lack of lunge when the car was downshifted.

• Shift times were approximately 0.37-0.26 seconds. Basically, less than a half-second.







I appologize for the sucky pictures but my "camera crew" was not the best.
Modified by moyea at 8:59 AM 8/10/2006

[onosqv]

Sounds great!

One question, for the shrifter, how is the wiring run? can you take pictures of where it plugs in? From the picture, it looks like it connects below the shrifter/steering column?

My main concern is that I have a quick release.

My install will be hub->quick release->spacer->shrifter->wheel.

I "need" the quick release, so I just wanted to be sure teh shrifter can be unplugged easily before I unlock the wheel.

THANKS!

[Vkoslak]

This is awesome.I would love to do this to my 300zx TT auto, with one exception. I want the stock wheel to be retained. I already have a HKS ALC to up the line pressure. With just that installed I can chirp the tires during shifts. Plus no loss of boost when changing gears.