The UAW.. Demise of US Manufacturing- Can it come full circle??

[elwesso]

An interesting read- I didnt read everything but it explains that a lot of the corruption in labor unions is based on its original foundings!

http://clogic.eserver.org/2006/gibson.html

At the risk of being risque, im going to write mostly about what I've heard about the unions based on people who had to deal with them directly. note also that I've had many stories from both sides of the coin, either from the workers or the company stand point...

I know I've commented on this before. Maybe I'm completely off base.

I like factories. I like big machines, and I also like to be able to see people making an honest living at a job they are capable of doing. All too often you see many people lounging around, or to summarize, very rarely working hard. In my company we have a small factory that really doesnt do any sort of mass production, called the "product launch center" and its referred to as the "lounge center". God only knows what its like on the floor of a huge plant, this particular center only has a few different operations going on (its mostly a test site).

since the last discussion, Ive been doing a little research on the UAW and stuff... What Im finding is that the union itself is probably more to blame than the members it supposedly represents. Without going into a lot of details, there are ways for the union leaders to ultimately steal from the Company and to steal from the workers... Ive heard of people making 100,000/year incomes by basically "playing their cards right"...

Orignally the union was setup to prevent racism in labor. Ford didn't like jews or black people- a reasonable claim for people that wanted work.

Admittedly, there was a lot of corruption in the companies that necessitated the need for a union, a way for the company to provide fair and equal employment to anyone who was qualified...

Union membership peaked at about 1,530,870 members in 1969, now down to about 598,000.

Those are just some fun facts, on to the actual discussion. Its of no doubt that the unions (not necessarily the workers the union represents, the union as a whole) is what has caused and is still causing the slow shutdown of plants around the US. Of the plants that were in my hometown employing 50,000 workers, its now down to 0. near my city other plants are closing and moving the mexico...

What really bums me out is here in my hometown, both my grandparents, and my grandfathers 2 brothers worked for the company I now work for, back in the 40s. My grandfather went on to be a doctor, and his 2 brothers ended up retiring from the company.

Why do they move the mexico? Well, labor is cheap (duh), but the mentality of the people is a lot different... People are happy to fasten screws into a housing all day to make $20... The mentality down there seems quite a bit different than it does here. Our culture is always looking for the "easy way out", and when you work for a huge company, that seems like a pretty easy thing to leech off. Overseas, the ability to work is a PRIVELAGE, not a RIGHT... In fact, the recent (Q1 2008) American Axle Strike caused slow numbers in Mexico plants....

In short, not only do overseas workers sometimes provide better quality work, but its a lot easier to deal with. No unions like we have here, no risk of lawsuits, and overall the company makes more money, which in turn makes for more job security...

maybe thats what people don't understand. You can't keep milking the company out of money it doesnt have.. you can either try and make yourself better for a time, or completely ruin everything, like the union did for the workers at Delco Remy and Guide. I remember when Delco-Remy and Guide Lamp plants were still in operation.. I remember as a kid of all these big deals of contracts going on, of essentially the unions demanding more money... Money doesnt grow on trees! what is sad is that these companies probably could still be in operation today with laborers in my hometown. Its not like the companies don't make moeny, but they can't afford to pay people $30/hour to turn screws, with $40/hour benefits.

Maybe this happened, maybe it didnt, but someone should have just said.. LISTEN, either we take this job, or we're not going to have a job at all and the company will employ 5,000 Mexicans.

Now the question remains, can this demise of US manufacturing come full circle? Will the natural corruption engulf the overseas market, causing manufacturing to come back to the US? I think it will, as technology increases more skilled workers will be required. More sophisticated plants could start popping back up, bringing jobs back to our hometowns. Another factor is transportation costs, fortunately now fossil fuels are still cheap compared to what they will be...

The days of a standard laborer are coming to an end. The days of making 60,000/year plus benefits with only a high school degree are over...

[skylndrftr]

A couple quick comments...

The union has priced themselves otu of business. They once served a grand and noble place in society, now they literally hurt the workers and the companies. Ford and GM are moving their manufacturing out of this country already, while Toyota, Nissan, and Honda are moving here...the japanese are profitable (or close) while the big two (dropping chrysler at this poitn) are hemoraghing money. One group has unions, one group doesn't.

[AZhitman]

A couple quick comments...

The union has priced themselves otu of business. They once served a grand and noble place in society, now they literally hurt the workers and the companies. Ford and GM are moving their manufacturing out of this country already, while Toyota, Nissan, and Honda are moving here...the japanese are profitable (or close) while the big two (dropping chrysler at this poitn) are hemoraghing money. One group has unions, one group doesn't.

You're on an intellectual roll today, my friend.

I've said it before - Every day in my job, I have to make a case before an Administrative Law Judge as to why a person should lose (or keep) their job. I have YET to see a Union rep in these proceedings who has anything useful to contribute, and not ONCE do they cover any new ground or "protect" the employee by finding something I haven't already covered.

It's in my best interest to make sure the rights of the employee are protected, even if I'm about to lay out a laundry list of reasons why they should no longer be employed.

[elwesso]

A couple quick comments...

The union has priced themselves otu of business. They once served a grand and noble place in society, now they literally hurt the workers and the companies. Ford and GM are moving their manufacturing out of this country already, while Toyota, Nissan, and Honda are moving here...the japanese are profitable (or close) while the big two (dropping chrysler at this poitn) are hemoraghing money. One group has unions, one group doesn't.

thats pretty much the point I'm trying to make...

[Marenta]

Well, the requirement to work at the foreign plants here in America is actually quite steep. They want you to have a degree or at least some form of higher education before they hire you.

These companies aren't stupid, they know that there are tons of people in America that need jobs, and they want only the most qualified personnel to do it, so they're going to make the process of getting the jobs difficult. And, they should, it's their right. If the big three decided to let the labor unions piss it all away, well that's between the big three and the labor unions and the lazy asses that decided to sit around and not do their jobs.

I'm sorry, but kudos to them moving their production plants here, because they're expecting more out of the public than we've expected out of ourselves in a long while. I hate the taste of humble pie, but damnit America has to eat a slice every once in a while.

[telcoman]

A couple quick comments...

The union has priced themselves otu of business. They once served a grand and noble place in society, now they literally hurt the workers and the companies. Ford and GM are moving their manufacturing out of this country already, while Toyota, Nissan, and Honda are moving here...the japanese are profitable (or close) while the big two (dropping chrysler at this poitn) are hemoraghing money. One group has unions, one group doesn't.

skyindrftr

Why do you think this has occurred?

Is it possible that mismanagement of our automobile industry for the past 40 years may have been a contributing factor?Back in the 1950's, te 55 Ford, Chevy & Chrysler products were great automobiles assembled by union workers.

Management abuse of their workforce coupled with failure to invest in research and developement, speeding up the assembly line led to shoddy workmanship by union members The reason many shoppers went to Volkswagon in the 1960's is because they were well made and cheap to own and maintain. I had three.Others paid more to own a Mercedes than a Cadillac when Cadillac's quality suffered.Americans will pay more for quality products. If other countries make better products then people will switch to those. Sony is a good example!Just a year ago we got rid of our 36 year old Maytag washer. Still worked.America at one time had great workers and great products.About a week ago CNBC ran a program "Saving General Motors"One auto worker commented that he had the authority not to send a vehicle out to a dealer if he saw something wrong.What took GM management so long to give workers the authority to do that. They sent out so much $hit for the past 40 years they lost all there customers. In Florida retirement communities all you see are Camry's and Lexus. Very few American cars. Plenty of horror stories on owning an American car.I've previously written what a POS my first car was. A 1958 Ford.I haven't purchased an American car since.

Are unions still necessary?

I say yes! Strong well trained honest union officials negotiating with strong well trained, and honest management makes a successful company and a happy workforce.

Unions that discriminate against members, have corrupt officials are no different that some of the corrupt and dishonest management executives. Both will cause the company to ultimately fail.

Telcoman

[AZhitman]

I agree with all of your post above, H.

Except the necessity of unions.

The Japanese have shown (and you have confirmed it in your post) that they are indeed unnecessary, unless you have a workforce consisting of entitled whiners who feel their menial skills on an assembly line are worthy of six figures.

[elwesso]

after reading your post, I thought about it over dinner and I think the point I was trying to make was...

Like Japan, do you think that American automotive companies can actually, come back to the US? Man that sounds funny, and im sure 30 years ago we'd never see this coming, or maybe we should have?

I think Greg is right though.. Why do we need unions? Why cant we reward those who work well, and those who don't? We seem to be able to do it in about any other industry!!!! I think the unions have created this mentality of "getting more for less", when if you want more, you have to work more, and then MAYBE you get more (or maybe not?)... IF theres a problem, why can't you defend yourself instead of paying money to involve yourself with some group.. Its definitely a very socialistic way of thinking, just on a smaller scale...

This is kind of a neat website, more of a photo-history than anything, but I like this kind of stuff..

http://www.coalcampusa.com/rustbelt/in/in.htm

Its not like the companies here want to send their stuff to the US. Its a ROYAL PITA to send stuff overseas, not only from the startup costs and having to move everything, but from local legislations. If you want to lay off any worker in mexico working in a plant, you have to pay them for a full month's worth.. Thats national law.. Not nearly as big of a deal down there when they make less than $500/month vs 500/day here..

Why would anyone work hard and make high quality products when they have an avenue to get the same money and NOT do that?

I know one thing is for sure.. I want to tour the plants in my area (borg warner, GM Ft. Wayne assembly, etc) before theyre torn down, because its only a matter of time.

[skylndrftr]

Telco, you make some very valid points. However to say that they are necessary today I still think is a stretch. While Unions can (and often do) serve a purpose, I believe it gives to much power to the few people more interested in the union than their job. Having worked in a union shop and a non union shop...well they both have their goods and bads. But what it comes down to is the root of why we 'need' unions

It comes down to a relationship between a worker and the company. In years past, the union was there to protect the good employees, from the bad employers. Together, everyone benefited to some extent. Maybe the company didn't get everything they wanted, but everyone got something close to fair. However the loud voices within a union now likely come from those that are not hard workers, not good employees, and have solely their own interests at heart not those of the union.

Unions do use their collective bargaining power to raise wages to a higher level. However they are, like many americans, focused on the short term dollar and then want sympathy when they put their employer into the reddest of the red.

The japanese have shown that by treating your employees fairly you can create a dialog that makes them comfortable and willing to work hard for pride and pride alone...not because their jobs are threatened. While the big three have not in the past attempted to create this dialog, now, when they need to, they can't because of the UAW.

And Hitman is right...no one with a GED should feel entitled to a 6 figure job. am working on a MS degree in engineering and when I graduate I will make a similar salary to a production line UAW worker having started there when I entered college. Think about these questions1) Who has loans to payback2) who worked their *** off for 6 years working a 35 hour a week job (so I dont get benefits) and going to school full time.

The unions were meant to make things fair, when they don't they have lost their way.

[telcoman]

Telco, you make some very valid points. However to say that they are necessary today I still think is a stretch. While Unions can (and often do) serve a purpose, I believe it gives to much power to the few people more interested in the union than their job. Having worked in a union shop and a non union shop...well they both have their goods and bads. But what it comes down to is the root of why we 'need' unions

It comes down to a relationship between a worker and the company. In years past, the union was there to protect the good employees, from the bad employers. Together, everyone benefited to some extent. Maybe the company didn't get everything they wanted, but everyone got something close to fair. However the loud voices within a union now likely come from those that are not hard workers, not good employees, and have solely their own interests at heart not those of the union.

Unions do use their collective bargaining power to raise wages to a higher level. However they are, like many americans, focused on the short term dollar and then want sympathy when they put their employer into the reddest of the red.

The japanese have shown that by treating your employees fairly you can create a dialog that makes them comfortable and willing to work hard for pride and pride alone...not because their jobs are threatened. While the big three have not in the past attempted to create this dialog, now, when they need to, they can't because of the UAW.

And Hitman is right...no one with a GED should feel entitled to a 6 figure job. am working on a MS degree in engineering and when I graduate I will make a similar salary to a production line UAW worker having started there when I entered college. Think about these questions1) Who has loans to payback2) who worked their *** off for 6 years working a 35 hour a week job (so I dont get benefits) and going to school full time.

The unions were meant to make things fair, when they don't they have lost their way.

Hitman, while I enjoy his posts is in my opinion only right in is political leanings.

There are trades that earn and deserve the 6 figure incomes that they earn.

Iron Workers, Crane operators, Plumbers, Electricians, Air traffic controllers, Pilots to name a few. I'm not sure if all of the above require more than a HS education?

http://images.google.com/imgre...a%3DX

Many companies try to limit competition or buy out competitors to have a degree of control over the market place. Unions attempt to control the supply of labor to keep wages as high as possible for their members.One of the reasons we have an immigration problem here is because business lobbists encourage immigrants to force wage rates down for large employers. With the decline of union power in the US since the late 1970's and Regan firing the air traffic controlers, wages and benefits for most workers have been declining.Contrast that with the huge salary and benefit packages for senior management, many of whom have run companies into the ground laying off thousands of workers in the process.

One of the so called trickle down jobs the Bush alludes to appeared on youtube yesterday. A young Burger King worker loved his employer so much he took a bath in the sink of the Burger King. Pretty funny but he got fired. Burger King didn't think one of their poorly paid minimum wage workers should be bathing on company time in their kitchen sink.Well if there was a union there....., hmmm that would be a tough one to win but I'd be willing to give it a try

Telcoman

[smockers83]

There are trades that earn and deserve the 6 figure incomes that they earn.

Iron Workers, Crane operators, Plumbers, Electricians, Air traffic controllers, Pilots to name a few. I'm not sure if all of the above require more than a HS education?

Many companies try to limit competition or buy out competitors to have a degree of control over the market place. Unions attempt to control the supply of labor to keep wages as high as possible for their members.One of the reasons we have an immigration problem here is because business lobbists encourage immigrants to force wage rates down for large employers. With the decline of union power in the US since the late 1970's and Regan firing the air traffic controlers, wages and benefits for most workers have been declining.Contrast that with the huge salary and benefit packages for senior management, many of whom have run companies into the ground laying off thousands of workers in the process.

If an iron worker should make 6 figures, I know a lot of people that should be making millions. Same goes for plumbers. Plumbers hardly do anything until they are called upon. For example, a guy who I think still works at Ford as a plumber, sits around most of the day and even sleeps up to 7 hours on the job. The only time he has to do something is if something happens. He says he should be paid the way he does because what he does can get dirty. This guy should not, by any means, be paid more than $40,000-50,000 a year. For the amount of actual work he does, his pay is as ridiculous as some CEOs and other executives.

Another example. The local steel worker's union where I'm from. The iron ore mine is hitting record tonnage this year as steel demand is sky high. Now that would place high demand for labor at the mine. However, they are paying people $60,000+ to drive trucks around for a shift. There is a ton of downtime driving those trucks from the pit to processing. A line of trucks may move every 15 minutes. Now it is a lot of money at first, but your salary doesn't go anywhere and it also entices people to move from their current job to the mine, however, for the skill and time involved, its not worth $60,000. Its only worth $60,000+ because of high prices and high demand.

I could agree with pilots making 6 figures, but that's about it.

Companies limit competition? Competition within a company is what drives growth and ideas. If anyone tries to limit competition its the union. As you say, unions attempt to control the labor market to keep wages high. Guess what, you guys are complaining the same thing about oil...manipulation of the market. Unions manipulate the labor market and put a premium on their represented labor compared to the market price of labor. How you can say unions are great for doing that and complain about oil is beyond me. Any time a business tries to manipulate the market that they're in, guess what happens, they get investigated, fined, and some go bankrupt.

As for companies laying people off, that's how business works. Employees are an expense. If expenses exceed revenues, you need to cut expenses. If you have excess labor, you have excess expense. If your market demand decreases, you have to decrease supply. Well you can't keep all of those workers while you decrease supply because they'd just be sitting around doing nothing. If the whole economy turns downward, unemployment is naturally going to rise. The amount of labor needed is a function of the amount of output needed to supply a given demand.

Unions can go f themselves in the a for all I care, particularly the UAW. They've screwed up MI, not blaming them completely though, but we place much of the blame on them.

[smockers83]

Dr. Mark J. Perry, professor of economics and finance at the University of Michigan, who points out that hourly union workers at the Big 3 make on average 57.6% more in a year than a university professor with a Ph.D. Using figures from the automakers themselves, Dr. Perry tells us that a union worker at Ford makes $141,020/year including wages and benefits. A worker at General Motors makes $146,520/year and one at Chrysler earns $151,720/year. According to another report he cites, the average annual salary for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973, which happens to be close to the $96,000/year a Honda, Nissan or Toyota worker makes in the U.S.

[AZhitman]

H, I already addressed the idiocy of the air traffic controller example - The union broke the law, and Reagan did the right thing. Holding an industry hostage is criminal, same as holding a human being hostage.

Employees who make money for shareholders are rewarded. Those who don't are fired. Simple.

[skylndrftr]

Dr. Mark J. Perry, professor of economics and finance at the University of Michigan, who points out that hourly union workers at the Big 3 make on average 57.6% more in a year than a university professor with a Ph.D. Using figures from the automakers themselves, Dr. Perry tells us that a union worker at Ford makes $141,020/year including wages and benefits. A worker at General Motors makes $146,520/year and one at Chrysler earns $151,720/year. According to another report he cites, the average annual salary for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973, which happens to be close to the $96,000/year a Honda, Nissan or Toyota worker makes in the U.S.

as disgusting as that is Smockers, it misses the most important part of why this is such a problem. Look into (I'm sorry I don't have time right now) what happens when GM et.al do layoffs. They end up payingg these guys anyways! So you close a plant or you move a plant or unload a plant for whatever cost saving reason and it doesn't save you anything

[elwesso]

i have no problem with low skill, HIGH risk jobs being paid a premium.. But driving a truck or pressing a button on a machine, come on!

are those figures from the big 3, toyota, nissan, and honda for just hourly factory workers, or does that include engineers, executives, etc?

[skylndrftr]

wes, those figures are hourly union figures.

The UAW won't let people like Engineers in...gotta love an industry where the GED factory workers snapping automatically machined parts together exclude people with a college degree...and make twice what they do.

[smockers83]

as disgusting as that is Smockers, it misses the most important part of why this is such a problem. Look into (I'm sorry I don't have time right now) what happens when GM et.al do layoffs. They end up payingg these guys anyways! So you close a plant or you move a plant or unload a plant for whatever cost saving reason and it doesn't save you anything

Short run, yes it does cost them. That's what you see in balance sheets and financial statements as restructuring costs. Long run though, it saves them money by buying them out.

[skylndrftr]

no I was referring to layoffs...the buyouts are different because they are optional.

I'll have to find the aticle...::wanders off to google::