The RIAA!!!!!!!!

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fiznat
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Cold_Zero wrote: I have a great idea, offer a product that competes with files haring that is easier to use, sounds better and has more choices than Kazaa or any other program.


Well that's clearly the real answer to the problem. If you cant beat em, join em I guess.

To make it clear: I really dont have too much sympathy for the RIAA's profit margins either, I'm really just looking at it from a moral standpoint: and the fact remains that despite who profits (or doesnt profit) from it, downloading mp3s is still stealing. What's more is how people try to justify their actions by claiming to have some interest in the music industry's buisnuess practices. That 12 year old girl who got caught wasn't making some sort of revolutionary statement about the plight of underappreciated african american musicians who we treated unfairly by the big bad music industry, she was just getting the newest 50 Cent song without having to pay for the CD. So let's just take a step down from that ideological cloud for a second, and realise the reality of the situation: the music industry is a bastard -that's true, but this is not the right way to fix it.


TrueSlide
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Yes, the RIAA has gone off the deep end with their tactics, especially with this 'amnesty' act, its a illusion, a joke, a trap, a <insert>. Maybe the RIAA should sit down and find a way to profit off the download rage, apple found away, shame it only works for MACs, Itunes, first day didnt they rake in a million songs?? All payed for!! Go apple!!! The artists do not get raped by the RIAA lack of sales!!! Artists make more money from exposure and other such things then they do from recording, infact they make a very very small percentage from the recording industry.

Its not that the RIAA is out to sucker someone, well ya they are, sueing their own customers because their lack of ability to keep up with the digital/internet era. Charging $20 for a 20 year cd is just as bad as someone downloading music and should be just as 'illegal' :D.

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fiznat
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damn you trueslide and your controversial threads!

(lol you know I love em :D)

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Cold_Zero
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It was pretty funny when Metallica lead the battle cry against Napster, because their intellectually property was being stolen. These are the same idiots that stole Misfits songs for Garage Days and didnt pay the group one cent for doing so.

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fiznat
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everyone sings a different tune (haha get it?) when it's their pockets that are getting tapped.

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89240sx
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Ok I didnt read every post but here is my .02 cents:

What they are hoping to accomplish by suing is to strike fear into people so they do not download music but what happens next? Do they have a plan ? I dont think so.... here's why:

the lawsuits will go on and on and their next goal will be to get all the people that were affected by these lawsuits to go back into the store and once again support them which will probably NOT happen being that they are victimized (yes victimized even through they are stealing). Most ppl dont see it as stealing (not that i'm saying it is right nor wrong)

secondly ... the more they sue and the more they PUSH the more people will stick to their guns and code better software with encryption and other methods of security (and yes I know what i'm talking about ... see profile for employment) and then the RIAA will inadvertantly (sp?) push it deeper and harder to track by their minions. So what is the resolution??

Lower your prices :-)

anyway my .02 cents

MJ

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fiznat
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89240sx wrote:Ok I didnt read every post but...


comeon man, why not?? its only a page, and I know a few people (including me) put some real effort into making the argument something more than just everyone throwing a random opinion in... READ, THEN COMMENT!

ah its all good I guess, just read though!

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89240sx
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yes I read most of them but a lot of it was repetative (sp?)

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krazy skwerel
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Where do these 20 dollar cd's come from. I know I hardly ever see a cd for more than 16 dollars, and a lot I get for less than that. Maybe it's my area.

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fiznat
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they're $19.99 and sometimes more around here. Some are $15.99 or so, but they're all pretty damn expensive.

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deftdrummer
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here's an idea i just got:

when people sell or give away free things they aren't usually just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. There are usually advertisements and the like all over the place. Spoken or banner or whatever. Look at this web site for example!

Second, the whole radio to digitalized format thing is just dumb because you would never get that great of quality from the radio plus it would be a big hassle waiting for all the songs you want to hear. That is the reason the recording industry never gave a crap before...cause it wasn't practical! so what if....

the recording industry just put advertisements at the beginning or the end of the song?? that way they get us to hear what they want to hear (ads) and we get the song. Of course we could always edit the song later, but we still hear it right! if there were enough of the RIAA's songs out there with ads, their goal might be somewhat accomplished right?? May be a dumb idea...but its an idea none the less.

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The way I see it, the RIAA doesn't have distinctive(sp?) evidence pointing to online file sharing effecting their profits.

I know it does but saying it is dropping 31% is a crock in my opinion.

There are a lot of factors to consider when talking about this. Satelite radio took a huge leap over the last year, that could be doing somthing. You are now able to purchase songs online, such as Apple's new music software (Cant remember what its called off the top of my head).

RIAA gets money from these online music sales, but they arent calculating this when they look at their CD sales.

This would be like me opening an electronics store, and I sell VCR's for years. Then i get DVD players, and I start thinking people dont like watching movies anymore because they stopped buying VCR's.

All the RIAA is doing is putting the people who aren't a threat to them out of alot of money and feeding the fire for piracy.

My $.02

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SmithSR
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Sports cars are expensive too. Perhaps we can apply the same faulty logic and intellectually sloppy thought process to the auto industry...?

"The new Z is too expensive. Lower prices. If not, we'll steal them off the lot until you lower the prices."

Socially and economically depraved people act in such a manner.

I have no problem paying for something that I will enjoy using. Why do so many people find it so difficult to understand that every single item you buy includes a markup, sometimes several markups, from manufacturer to end user??

Cars have a markupbikes doCD's dofood tooclothescomputersDVD playersanything

Any product you buy is marked up. Some things are marked up more than others, according to what the market will allow. How many of you have bought a house? How many of you bought a new vehicle model when it was first released? How many of you have bought a movie on DVD? How many of you have purchased tires? Shocks? Brakes? Performance rotors??

If more of you knew just how much certain items were marked up, not just compact discs, you'd be crying foul on an internet forum all day long... ah, too late!

Every person in business or employee of a business works on a profit margin. That's how business works.

Pray that the day when your boss uses your own concepts against you never comes. Next time you ask for a raise, he tells you to lower your asking price or he'll find a means to replace you. Then he spits in your face and calls you greedy and tells you that you aren't worth the price you're now earning. Then he replaces you.

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fiznat
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SmithSR wrote:"The new Z is too expensive. Lower prices. If not, we'll steal them off the lot until you lower the prices."

Socially and economically depraved people act in such a manner.


THANK YOU!!

All that said though, and the consumer still does have a VERY powerful tool that he can use against these types of companies: his money. CDs are $20 each because people WILL PAY $20 for a CD. That price wasn't random, it was a very well researched decision designed to find that ideal price that people will pay, yet still maintain as large a profit margin as possible. If people dont buy CDs, then the price will go down. Simple as that. Stealing should never be the solution for someone who cares about his morals OR the economy.

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fiznat
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Spilk188 wrote:The way I see it, the RIAA doesn't have distinctive(sp?) evidence pointing to online file sharing effecting their profits.


Here, I'll quote myself to answer this point - again.
fiznat wrote:That's a good point, I agree that there are other factors to consider. But honestly though man, do you REALLY think that the avaibility of FREE MUSIC to anyone with an internet connection hasnt hurt the music industry?? Seriously, if there was some guy giving out free oil changes across the street, dont you think that would hurt your shop?? It just makes sense this way. If you want to argue about where that 31% came from and all the various economic factors that might have contribuited to the number, we'll be here all month working out the numbers. You can boil it down to this: if I walk around my 30,000-student campus right now, I guarantee I'll be LUCKY to find someone that has purchaced a CD within the last month. There really is no "need" to pay for something that you can easially get for free.
And even after all that, even if the RIAA really ISNT losing any money cause of all of this, it is STILL not your place to steal a product that required money, effort, and skill to produce. You may say that the RIAA is a bunch of bastards for taking money from the artists, but how bad does that make you, when you take money from BOTH the RIAA AND the artists!?

Spilk188
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Im not saying you SHOULD do it. Im merely saying I personally see nothing wrong with somone buying the cd, ripping it, then giving it to people.

The song was paid for at some point. (in most cases)

toki
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Quote »no conclusive unbiased results [/quote]Quote »The music industry says ....dropped 31 percent drop since mid-2000[/quote]No, that's not biased at all. Theres also no possibility they are lieing either, it's not like they lie and cheat for a living or something.

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fiznat
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so you think it would be equally OK if someone were to take the newspaper every morning, photocopy it, and distribute it for free? what about people who buy computer programs, copy them, and hand them out to whoever wants them? there are lots of little examples, but the way this should work is that you are sold a product that is in fact copy-able, but you still shouldn't do it. I mean what if you had a machine that could make exact copies of anything once you bought one-- like a candybar or a dollar bill. Would that be OK to use-- I mean, since you did originally work for that single dollar bill at one point....

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fiznat
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toki wrote:No, that's not biased at all. Theres also no possibility they are lieing either, it's not like they lie and cheat for a living or something.


Dude whatever, I'm not here to convince you of the facts that are out there. Go do some damn research yourself and I'm sure you'll find that when a product is distributed for FREE, less people are willing to buy it. That blows my mind that you are able to convince yourself that people download music for free and then still go out and buy the same songs on CD. Is that what you do??

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deftdrummer
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I know for a fact that I do it. You can't get cd quality music NO MATTER WHAT for every possible song that would be on the cd any other way. Once you rip it to your comupter, its as good as the cd quality. Trust me on this one (im an audio buff) http://www.ipodlounge.com if you want to know anything else.

Bottom line is people have been stealing music/software/movies/copywrite info EVERYTHING for years and years. Just because this is such a huge blow to the nuts of the Music industry they are gonna freak out and sue to try and scare. Its natural, their jobs are on the line.

However, in the end....the people always win. Napster was started some 5 years ago, and the saga continues......

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Jesda
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I want to talk into a music store, bring a list of tracks to the counter, and leave with a customized disc or memory chip or something with my music on it to take home and enjoy. Make each track a dollar or two, and offer 30% off for buying all the tracks on an album.

A physical version of the iTunes Store.

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well i for one can say the tactics used in sueing people over downloading works , after the companys started going after people who downloaded i stopped , erased all downloading programs and went on with my life

but .... i dont buy as many cds as i used to , i have bought around 200 cds in my lifetime and only buy maybe 4 cds a year , the last cd i bought was john mellencamps "trouble no more" , i dont listen to the radio at all so i have no clue what the latest music is but when im at the store i look up my big 15 artisits i track and if a new one has been realesed i buy it but anymore i very skiddish about doing that as i was let down big time by metallicas st anger (still good but nothing like load or black)

i have to buy 2 more thru colimiba house but after that ill never buy a cd thru them or there suppliers again , everythime i buy 2 they say i have to buy 2 more and its getting rediclulas ...

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RobDET
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It's Deeper than just steeling from the artists. I believe that what the RIAA is doing is wrong. America is a land of majorities and groups. When millions of people are doing something that the government has deemed "Illegal" it is time to revisit the legality of that "thing" Remember prohibition?

It's like this... When everyone got a fridge the ice companies went out of business... When the ariline indistry grew many of the trans-atlantic companies went out of business...

History has many time proved that sometimes companies that cannot addapt perish. Progress is a difficutl process but it cannot be stopped. No matter how many people the RIAA gets the music indistry is in for a loss...

Verizon has come out squarely against the RIAA... here is an article. You can find a LOT about this on google (who doesn't charge for suplying the best searches on the net)

On July 24, the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) made an unprecedented request of Verizon Communications (VZ ). The music industry's trade association served the telecom with a subpoena, seeking the identity of a Verizon subscriber who had allegedly illegally traded digital songs by artists including Britney Spears, Jennifer Lopez, and "boy band" N'Sync. The RIAA didn't specify why it wanted to know who the user was or what it would do with the information.

Perhaps Verizon's "John Doe" should be charged with bad taste in music -- but not with anything else. Verizon refused to comply with the subpoena, asking instead that the RIAA let a judge decide if there was enough proof of illicit activity to warrant handing over the subscriber's personal information.

The RIAA, in turn, claimed that under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), the very fact that it had suspicion of illegal activity should be enough to have the subscriber's identity unmasked. In August, it filed a motion to compel Verizon to comply with its subpoena. This week, legal wrangling moved into high gear as both sides filed court briefs. The oral arguments could be heard later this month.

SHARP LAWYERS. What does this have to do with your privacy? After all, you're a law-abiding citizen, right? The answer is everything. At the heart of the battle between the RIAA and Verizon is the right to be anonymous online. If the RIAA wins this legal skirmish, as it has so many others over the last three years, the Net will fundamentally change. It will be less free, less innovative, and less private.

The good news is that, unlike past legal battles, the RIAA is picking on someone its own size. The defendant isn't some underfunded, inexperienced dot-com but a telecommunications giant. And the outcome will affect all ISPs, from AOL (AOL ) and EarthLink (ELNK ) to SBC (SBC ) and AT&T (T ). That means sharp lawyers will be fighting hard to ensure that copyright holders -- or anyone else -- aren't given access to identifying information without a judge's approval.

Technically, the ISPs appear to have a strong case. Most copyrighted songs are traded over peer-to-peer (P2P) networks, which means that files are swapped directly from one user's hard drive to another's. This is important because the infringing material is not located on the ISP's network but on the user's PC. The ISPs claim that it's not their job -- or their place -- to police what files customers have on their private hard drives.

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I'm certain that file sharing has hurt the music industry...I dont particularly like music but on the rare occasion I hear a good song, I dont run to the store...I log onto Kazaa. I haven't bought a CD in literally several years that was for myself. Of course, I wont be heartbroken if they DO figure out how to end P2P music sharing...remember, I dont like music all that much ;) I'm going to have to go with Fiznat on this one, it's still wrong no matter what way you cut it...but its one of those things like speeding, you'll never stop it and everybody does it at some point.

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RobDET
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The comercial idea probibly isn't far off... but i hate it!! Been to see a movie lately?

BTW i'm not attacking u man... just the fact that you are probibly right :D

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89240sx
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I think what you are arguing about can be solved like this.

Yes Piracy is wrong but can the RIAA stop it ? NO they cant!So who will or should bend in this situation? Well people should not steal but it is never going to be stopped

So the only way to counter the situation is for the RIAA to lower their prices and people will understand that downloading songs and QA'ing them to make sure they are ok quality , length etc... then having to burn them to cd is a huge inconvenience!

So by lowering prices ....people out of convenience will naturally go buy the cd because of the better prices offered and the convenience of walking in the store and grabbing the cd buying it and throwing it in your car or home stereo.

so in the end .... yes stealing is wrong but the riaa has only ONE option to stop it and it is not something they want to do (and i'm not saying it is something they should HAVE to do!)

But suing people left and right is probably going to inadvertantly hurt their business more than just lowering cd prices will.

another .02 cents

MJ

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I blame the 30% drop in sales to two things, mainstream music sucks these days, and the economy isnt exactly booming. The record labels are blowing the problem way out of proportion, I dont think puff daddy is going to have to file chapter 11 anythime soon.

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Cold_Zero wrote:1. Your first example shows only one side of the picture. If you sign a fledgling band and they make it big, so does your company. I doubt that your small artists are the ones constantly being downloaded on Kazaa and other gnutella software programs.

2. What about the fact that some of the smaller artist use file sharing to get their music out to the public? Because the bigger corporations are "loosing money" to file sharing they want to quash the ability for smaller artists to share their music and build a fan base? You cant tell me that a portion of this issue is not based on Corporate Greed.


1. It may be just a side of the picture but it's a common one. Small no-name labels make up a pretty big portion of the music industry. The chances of one of our bands making it big is pretty slim because again, our label category caters to a small, niche market or as we like to call it "subculture." Our bands aren't "pop" enough to get heavy airplay or MTV exposure (both vital to huge success). On the flip side, it's typical for bands with moderate success to get lured away to bigger labels to sign more lucrative deals and thus becoming pop and turning in their original audience for a larger, pop-oriented audience.

2. If file-sharing exposure helps small artists, we'd all be clamoring over featuring spots on Kazaa, WINMX, etc. The problem with this is that you still need marketing power and strike luctrative deals with these file-sharing services to even be featured. It's not corporate greed at work here. If you could meet the guys at our label, it'll dispell any myth about greedy corporate big wigs. We're to do what we do best so musicians can focus on what they do best: make music. We care about our reputation, we care about the music, we care about bands and regard them as family members and we care about the quality of music our customers are paying for. Just like everyone else, we have to support ourselves and families and expect to get paid for the product we sell. If you still think labels are immoral or corrupt, fine, just consider us a necessary evil.

3. Music labels simply cannot be bypassed. Not only does the label possess the facilities to market the music to a larger audience, we do the best we can to market the band to the right audience, promote them in the right manner and have the business acumen to get them the best deals. Contrary to popular belief, we do have their best interests in mind. Being a musician is easily one of the toughest jobs out there- these guys are on the road constantly, sometimes playing gigs at dinky bars, not knowing when their next paycheck is coming in and how much they're gonna get paid. These guys aren't just part of our bottom-line, they're friends and family first. As a label we seek to do the best we can for them. The perception of fat-cat musicians throwing a tantrum despite raking millions is false. For every Linkin Park there's hundreds of indie bands playing their tails at underground clubs, cafes and hell even barmitzfa's (sp?).

4. The economy can't be blamed for the lack of sales. Despite the waning economy, 2002 was a record-breaking year for both the movie and videogame sectors. Videogames jumped 8% to $6.9 billion while movies like Spiderman, Lord of the Rings contributed to a blockbuster year at the cinema. Entertaining is still booming and that's an obvious sign file-sharing has hurt the music industry. If you think the RIAA is tough, try copying a movie and distributing them without the studio's consent, you're looking at huge fines and even jail time.

5. I reiterate that the RIAA does not speak on everyone's behalf. Their methods are extreme and not condoned by others in the industry like myself.

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me personally, I like to think of downloading songs as a way of "test driving" the album or band so to speak because if you were to look at my folder of MP-3's, I'd have almost every song on cd, unless of course it's a crappy one hit wonder...

I don't think piracy will ever quit though, the RIAA is gonna have to go global....

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Cold_Zero
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You can find out if you have been subpoena'ed at:

http://www.eff.org/IP/P2P/riaasubpoenas/

It appears that they are going after people who have chosen to be "Super Nodes." There is an Amnesty program for people who do minor downloading. You sign up on a webpage and agree to delete your downloaded music. I personally think this is a bad idea. Just because the RIAA says they wont sue you, does not mean some other artist/publishing/distribution group wont.

Personally I think this is the wrong issue that the RIAA is focused on. The problem of file sharing IS NOT the key problem. Ripping cd's or copying CDs is the real problem. Only problem is, the RIAA cant go after the people that rip cd's for their own benifit.

There are truly some interesting issues that will present itself during this legal process. If the RIAA suspects that I have downloaded a new song from "A Perfect Circle" how will they know that I really downloaded this song? I have downloaded plenty of files that were named one thing and ended up as another. What do you all think?

Dont worry, I will be legally purchasing the new Perfect Circle CD.


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