The Power of a Grounding Kit?

[CakeDaddy]

- Improved Fuel Economy- Improved Throttle response- Increased Power- Smoother, faster shifts- Faster engine spool up!!!- Cleaner, louder audio- Brighter Headlights (without flickering)

I boosted this info from the FX side of the forum, so..... what would be the difference from one Infiniti to next when it comes to upgrading the Ground Wires to a larger gauge and better material.zerothread/345479http://forums.nicoclub ... ead/355603

I guess what I'm asking is... How can us y34 boys get down with this


Modified by CakeDaddy at 2:32 PM 8/26/2008

[jadeM45]

Ive had these on a few of my cars. It wasnt anything noticible though. It looks good but is a PINTA to install depending on the car and where the grounding points are. I saw a dyno difference of 3hp on my 98 mroadster.

[saeedakobiakov]

i've always wanted to get one. it would not hurt in anyway.coming soon for me.this was always around, not a new thing.

[striz923]

I'll bite, how does grounding improve all of that stuff? I don't know much about cars, but that seems a bit outlandish.

[saeedakobiakov]

all i know the guy here in mass. in dyno shop with 500 whp evo had one , so most of import tuners shop people have one without any complains. do it yourself kit.it would not hurt.we got no go fast things for this car .so what is the problem?put it on and enjoy.

[jadeM45]

I'll bite, how does grounding improve all of that stuff? I don't know much about cars, but that seems a bit outlandish.

Magic! Basically it improves the ground and stabilizes the voltage so that all systems run optimum.

Here is a much longer and detailed explanation.

http://www.innovatemotorsports...g.php

[Q45tech]

Mostly hogwash, unless there is a corrsion defect in wiring or connections.

Now if aftermarket loads are added obviously oem did not consider these extra drains and the problems they create.

The greatest POWER these kits add is in the transfer of wealth they provide to companies that push them..................always be especially sensitive to companies that promote any aftermarket improvements in things like power or mpg or emissions since oem pay fed taxes per car based on amount of emissions and they could buy and add anything [these gimmicks] that works wholesale.

The audiophile industry has its gold plated connectors, diamond dust cloths, and exotic copper uranium cables - to part you from your money.

[maxnix]

Yeah, Monster Cable makes the Saudi Oil Sheiks look like charity workers.

By the way, for those who don't know, Q45tech holds a BSEE (among other degrees) and has worked in the wireless industry for a few decades.

[CakeDaddy]

After speaking with numerous performance shops here in town it's unanomous(sp), infiniti didn't cut any corners on any grounding cables , so based on that and what I've seen on this forum...this may be a waste of tiime in my opinion.

[infinitedrift]

I had a set of HKS grounding wires for my 240sx and I really didnt see a diffrence but they didnt hurt either. Plus the big HKS emblem was so pretty!!

[SteveTheTech]

Mostly hogwash, unless there is a corrsion defect in wiring or connections.

Now if aftermarket loads are added obviously oem did not consider these extra drains and the problems they create.

The greatest POWER these kits add is in the transfer of wealth they provide to companies that push them..................always be especially sensitive to companies that promote any aftermarket improvements in things like power or mpg or emissions since oem pay fed taxes per car based on amount of emissions and they could buy and add anything [these gimmicks] that works wholesale.

The audiophile industry has its gold plated connectors, diamond dust cloths, and exotic copper uranium cables - to part you from your money.

Finally the words have been spoken.

I cannot for the life of me think how that would effect throttle response especially on a car with a drive by wire CAN system. You are not going to be able to optimize this system as most of the car is wired together and a larger gauge of wire on only one side of the circuit is not going to improve electron flow. I can understand wiring larger gauge wires if you are increasing current in a circuit, and that would warrant a larger ground.

They are not the most common but grounds may become corroded, loose or damaged and effect circuit performance, but I don't think that warrants one of those kits.

[Supreme]

I wouldnt so quickly disregard it. Ive used the Sun Auto Hyper Voltage box on an STI and Evo, both of which showed noticeable improvements in idle, throttle response and acceleration. Its not going to give you a million HP lol. A friend of mine did the Apexi Super Grounding System on his TL and we also noticed improvements. The Apexi btw is the one showing the highest positive results on the market currently.

I cannot speak for wire kits like the HKS circle earth or those ebay pieces with a ring that goes on your battery terminal though, or the diy store bought wire jobs, but the above 2 systems have worked for me. The thing to note is that it will vary from car to car. Will it do well on an M35/M45? No idea. Maybe the above cars benefit from improved grounding, so give it a shot and let us know how it went

[Sentientbydesign]

I'll build one for an M if someone wants to lend their car for testing.

I haven't had 1 G35 customer that wasn't super happy with the results of the kits I make. Even on the newer 07-08 Sedans with the VQ35HR.

See, the problem here, is that all of the doubt is in speculation. I have driver proven results. Even if the kit gained you NO hp and NO fuel economy, the shifting, VDC, and audio effects would be worth it.

I have almost 2 dozen G35 NICO members who are VERY happy with the results and quite a few Altimas too.

Someone should have come to me about this. I would have been happy to help you all out.

[Sentientbydesign]

Noah, Beancooker:

http://forums.g35club.org/zerothread?id=349500

Vivek's Reaction:

http://forums.g35club.org/zerothread?id=367636

This guy bought the kit from me after LOTS of hesitation. I ended up helping him install it and his reaction with only 90% of it installed was..."This is better than my intake" (exact meaning, not exact words).

http://forums.g35club.org/zerothread?id=344222

I can find more or pull emails if you guys need more proof.

[szh]

I had a set of HKS grounding wires for my 240sx and I really didnt see a diffrence but they didnt hurt either. Plus the big HKS emblem was so pretty!!

On older, non-CAN cars, I can see it helping. Since there is significant current flowing in many of the wires, particularly the spark plug wires, etc. Making sure that you have clean large connectors, and good thick wiring, with solid grounds, should help in general!

However, on newer cars, where most of the signals are simply on a network bus (the CAN), the only place where I can remotely see it being of value is in the spark plugs and the grounding related to that in the engine compartment. Any other effect is likely to be imperceptible, IMHO.

Let me give you one example: in older cars, the light switch directly controls the electrical current flow to the headlights from the the electrical power in the car. So, making those cables bigger and grounding properly should help. In our M, the light switch is simply a low-voltage digital circuit instruction to the lighting computer that controls the remote computer in the engine compartment that activate relays to energize the headlights.

Adding a new grounding kit simply cannot help that - you would have to change the wiring near the headlight (from the relays) to have any real impact. This is likely to be so car-specific that no general "grounding kit" is going to work.

Perhaps people are perhaps fooling themselves into thinking there is an improvement because they paid for it? However, if you want to try it and let us know how well it does, go for it! Just don't expect HP gains or any miracles, IMHO.

FWIW, I don't plan to change anything in my car.

Z

[MagicM]

I think i would be better off losing a few pounds, taking out my spare, and only filling half a tank.

[szh]

I think i would be better off losing a few pounds, taking out my spare, and only filling half a tank.

Indeed.

However, the other potential benefits "claimed" (louder stereo, better engine behavior, etc.) are not affected by these.

Z

[Sentientbydesign]

Wow, you skeptics are funny. I have solid user experiences and you have shreds of electrical theory.

The issue here is that all of these systems are relying on a steal chassis to connect the circuit. In doing so, there is signal impedence, resistance (not the same), and noise introduced into all of those systems.

Nissan also has an issue not grounding their TCMs well. I'm not sure why, but I've experienced tihs as early as 96 in my I30 where the transmission would not down shift properly when coasting to a stop and also had issues downshifting when gunning it. It's a common problem on the Max/I-series.

You can doubt as much as you want, but there are plent of guys who have cars that are more fun to drive with less issues than yours. Will you really let pride stand in your way?

[szh]

Wow, you skeptics are funny. I have solid user experiences and you have shreds of electrical theory.

Shreds of electrical theory? No ... I just have a degree in EECS from MIT. With a thesis in field of semiconductor physics, and tons of experience with electrical circuits and electronic circuit design over 30 years. And, I am an audiophile to boot and understand when wiring and ground can indeed make a difference! I do know the term "ground bounce" and effects it can have on circuits.

Yes, I agree that having a good ground is a good idea! Means that if you have corrosion at a connector, or poor wiring, then, yes, adding better wiring or a better ground will help. And, cleaning connectors will help. Fixing wiring breaks will help.

However, once the resistance to ground (from any given point that needs a ground reference - like the low voltage pin at the ECU) is less than 0.1 ohm or so, then from that point on, there is no real gain.

Particular with our modern cars, where digital logic circuits are used for communication on the CAN bus, this is far less of an issue. This is all digital logic and there is no reason to change the resistance to ground below 0.1 ohm - there is not enough current flowing to cause the low voltage to rise to the point where digital logic would be affected.

Now, the places where I think hefty wiring will always help is when the wiring from the audio amplifier to the speakers is changed from any thin wiring to low-resistance, higher gauge wiring.

The issue here is that all of these systems are relying on a steal chassis to connect the circuit. In doing so, there is signal impedence, resistance (not the same), and noise introduced into all of those systems.

Nissan also has an issue not grounding their TCMs well. I'm not sure why, but I've experienced tihs as early as 96 in my I30 where the transmission would not down shift properly when coasting to a stop and also had issues downshifting when gunning it. It's a common problem on the Max/I-series.

You can doubt as much as you want, but there are plent of guys who have cars that are more fun to drive with less issues than yours. Will you really let pride stand in your way?

Nope - I will not let pride be the gauge here! But, I do not have problems with issues of drivability on my car that would be solved by better ground wires.

Again, as I noted, if anybody does add grounding wires, and finds it works better for them somehow, well and good! But, I'd like real electrical testing ... not seat of the pants measurements ... to convince me otherwise.

Z

[Sentientbydesign]

I don't have the testing equipment to determine how much faster the transmission responds in DS mode. Every one of my autotragic customers has noticed a significant difference.

I also don't have the equipment to measure how much faster the engine spools up, but I've seen it first hand as have many others.

I don't have equipment to measure how fast VDC disengages, but I know that I don't have to worry about being stuck in the middle of the road while the ECM decides it's time to release secondary control of my rear brakes and throttle.

Any chance of you coming down south any time soon? I'd be happy to put something together for your M and let the results speak for themselves.

[striz923]

Shreds of electrical theory? No ... I just have a degree in EECS from MIT. With a thesis in field of semiconductor physics, and tons of experience with electrical circuits and electronic circuit design over 30 years. And, I am an audiophile to boot and understand when wiring and ground can indeed make a difference! I do know the term "ground bounce" and effects it can have on circuits.

Z

I think i will go with whatever he says...

I have learned the hard way that most things sold by testimonials don't deliver, but I agree that 1) it doesn't hurt , and 2) if people feel like it helped, then it was worth the money. A year ago before I had the expense of a baby, I probably would have bought them for fun...

[Sentientbydesign]

I've got one on the way too. Just got our first ultrasound earlier this week.

I think the problem here is that Z is missing some part of the electrical design. I don't doubt his education (and probable experience in the trade), but results don't lie. Theory, on the other hand, usually leaves out small important bits of information.

Kind of reminds me of small angle approximations. For small angles, sin(x) is approximately equal to x. Let's not define what "small" is though...

[Rex]

Most of the testimonials are using the "butt-dyno" and AFAIK, that's the only dyno most owners will ever use on their cars.

That said, if people buy it, install it and like it, then the next (potential) buyer should do the proper research and make up their own mind.

No need to debate back and forth between those that believe in it and those that disagree.

[szh]

That said, if people buy it, install it and like it, then the next (potential) buyer should do the proper research and make up their own mind.

Yup! I agree with that ... said so in my posts too.

Z

[Sentientbydesign]

Eh...Anyone want to be a guinea pig out here in SoCal?