the holset vgt

[PorkChopExpress]

the days of the cheap holsets seem to be over with their gained popularity, but i see these new holset vgt turbos going for like 100 bucks.

having a turbo dodge in the past im not new to vgt turbos..

fairly sure i could make a simple circuit to regulate the vanes based on boost. .

only problem i read is that because it was designed for diesel applications, even full open vanes the boost would be high and a external gate would still be needed.

think i should get one to play with?

[db_s13]

YES

[Gr8plainsDrifter]

HOW?!?! i want to kno!

so the vanes are controlled electronically, so youre saying just have a power switch open and close the vanes? couldnt these work on a standalone system? I'm no electronic wizard

it would be worth it, and you'd gain rep on the street and on NICO. just dont tell everyone.

[Cjmartz2k]

Dude, DO IT! Yes, you would still need a wastegate, but probably not a big one comparativly. I've been looking and wondering for a while. I think the main problem people have run into is they have to make it a full on or full off kinda thing. They are getting full spool on a 600rwhp turbo by something stupid like 2k RPM on a 2L, but when the VGT rack opens a couple hundred RPM later, it goes from about a 5 cm housing to a 25cm housing and it falls out of boost again. Trick would be to get it to open progressivly, and that is done via factory ECU on Dodges. Figure it out and your my new hero.

[wrxratd]

If you really want to do this with a dodge vgt, it'll be difficult. Check out aero (username) on homemadeturbodotcom. He's using a he351ve like you want to and he rigged up an internal wastegate actuator to work the vanes. If you really want to control the vanes with stand alone, you need to use the powerstrokes vgt turbocharger as it uses different signals to control it. The holset one is a proprietary setup, but there are aftermarket boxes coming out to control it. Sorry i didn't go into real depth here, but i'm running out of time before work

[PorkChopExpress]

ya i was thinking of just using a pneumatic actuator to make things easy.

problems now are, the hot side is HUGE! my be fitment issues, also long term abuse from higher egts,

[240z4u]

I think it has big potential. I am waiting for someone to develop a controller for it. Its well beyond your average solenoid. It uses speed sensors etc.. to control it.

I was dead set on running one last month, but have decided that I am not interested in pulling my setup.

Good luck with it dude!

Evan

[l0nestar]

I had looked at this earlier w/ Evan. A friend from grade school is a Cummins / Holset parts specialist. We went over the differences between the early (pneumatic) and later(electronic) styles. I liked the VGT idea, but did not have the time to dedicate to getting it to function properly. I am still very interested in tinkering with one to make it work though.

[Reno]

YES

[WhatsADSM]

I've never even seen the things. So I am not sure of the electromechanics.

But if I had one and the schematics from the original vehicle, (or better yet the actual original vehicle to probe), I should be able to make a controller. Sounds like you really just want to make the vanes open progressively with turbine pressure.

[Carl H]

and with the avalability of parts and the low cost of sensors now that should be very easy to do...i'd guess a pic with a bit of quick and dirty code...freescale map sensor and some sort of fast acting relay or switching transistor and you'd have a pretty nice little boost controller.

[WhatsADSM]

and with the avalability of parts and the low cost of sensors now that should be very easy to do...i'd guess a pic with a bit of quick and dirty code...freescale map sensor and some sort of fast acting relay or switching transistor and you'd have a pretty nice little boost controller.

IMO the real benefit would be the ability to spool much quicker. You would still want to run a real external gate just to keep the boost level in check.

I actually have a generic board I have already laid out (even has a spot for the through-hole freescale MAPs) that probably has all the analog and digital I/O needed might just need some minor front end work depending on what they are using for electromechanics. I'd bet it's a lot more complicated than a simple transistor or relay actuating some coil. I read about them a while back and from what I remember they have decent controllers from the factory and IIRC they even have an encoder of some sort in there for shaft speed (which makes sense for diesel)!

[240z4u]

If your serious about figuring out how to control it, Ill buy a turbo for you to examine and mess with.

The bad part, is that I hear when you take the controller module contraption off you cant put it back on!

Email me if your interested.

Evan

[PorkChopExpress]

i was close to buying one for $100 shipped. my problem wasnt with the actuator, it was the size of the hot side. its huge and was afraid of fitment issues.

[Cjmartz2k]

Yeah, it'll need top mount for sure. That big a** exhuast housing should make for some great pump gas numbers though with kick a** spool if you guys figure out the actuator.

[moso240]

Seems like it shouldnt be too hard...

[l0nestar]

Glad I popped back onto Nico for this..

I had wondered if / why WhatsADSM had never considered building a controller...

[silviasgp06]

holy crap, someone should do the work for this,

there should be an "RB R&D paypal donation fund" set up for things like this. Mods and members would have to take a vote on who gets to do the R&D and they would receive a grant funded by all of us..... to help all of us.

[Vkoslak]

Pardon my ignorance, but why wouldn't you just wire it to use the tach signal? Keep the housing small when in low rpms to keep the spool going, and as rpms increase, increase the housing size.

I don't know what kind of signal the turbo is looking for, I guess a 0 thru +5 volts is too much to ask for. I wouldn't think it would be too hard to get something rigged up that would output a tach signal as voltage if it did use a 0 thru +5.

[240z4u]

You are way over simplifying the situation. Do you want to be at the same A/R for cruise as you do for WOT? Unlikely... plus there is no 0-5 volt actuation. It is a very complex system.

Whatsadsm would be nuts to take cash for R&D. Gale banks even had trouble making a programmer from what internet folklore says.

Pardon my ignorance, but why wouldn't you just wire it to use the tach signal? Keep the housing small when in low rpms to keep the spool going, and as rpms increase, increase the housing size.

I don't know what kind of signal the turbo is looking for, I guess a 0 thru +5 volts is too much to ask for. I wouldn't think it would be too hard to get something rigged up that would output a tach signal as voltage if it did use a 0 thru +5.

[WhatsADSM]

Yea I wouldn't really want to take anything for R&D since I would be "on the hook" for whatever we might find. It might be simple it might be pretty hard. I would rather just do it for fun on the side.

Yea as 240z mentioned, the likely hood that it is a simple 0-5V interface or a simple coil switch or something is pretty small. If it were that easy I would guess a generic controller would already be out there, hell if it were that easy I could get the controller up in a weekend.

The difficult portion would be figuring out how the electromechanics actually move the vanes. Once you have that figured out the actual control algorithm should be pretty easy. Because it is a performance (as opposed to complex OEM) application something as simple as a 2D MAP versus vane A/R or 3D MAP/RPM versus vane A/R would work great, and wouldn't take much time at all to implement.

Basic premise, once you figure out how to move the vanes electronically the rest shouldn't be bad at all.

[WhatsADSM]

I had some time at work (don't tell) and I looked up info on those VGT controllers. They have many different flavors of electronics controllers on the Holsets, but the most modern one is CAN bus controlled, so a simple analog or switched ground signal won't get you anywhere.

However looking at delphi's site and cross referencing info I found that they also make a PWM based version although I don't think that they exist on any holsets

http://delphi.com/manufacturer...emote/

So yea I'll look a little more into it to see if there is an application layer standard in CAN J1939 for VGT control. If there is it might actually be worth it to throw some money at R&D as you might have a decent shot at getting it going.

[konatown]

Has anyone checked in to how Porsche controls their Variable Vane Turbos on the 911 Turbo?

[silviasgp06]

any new updates with finding a way to get this to work right Moso?

[DrifterProdigy85]

I remember reading somewhere the Variable Vein Turbos dont take well to the high EGT's of a gas engine which is why its not used more today. Any truth to this?

[Sil240]

I believe that the BMW 335 and the New Porsche turbo use this on gas engines.There might be others that I'm not aware of though.

[Fibre guy]

And they say electronics don't like the heat...

[d356bud]

And they say electronics don't like the heat...

some can handle very high temps, I used to work with electronics that were tested at well above 100 degrees C. In college they teach you to design electronics with temperature in mind, such as automotive electronics.

[WhatsADSM]

240z has a bit more info, but I will leave it up to him to divulge his findings if he wants.

[d356bud]

I have one of these coming in the mail and I intend to make a cheap controller for the variable part and most likely interface the electronic wastegate with my greddy boost controller