http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...edded
Nothing new, and nothing too far from a rant most of us have likely made.... But well stated and well produced, with some good background footage. It seems worth it to spread this video.
Might not be a bad idea to re-post this on non-automotive forums as well
The Dog That Killed Hoonage.
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MinisterofDOOM
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Re: The Dog That Killed Hoonage. (Red coupe)
That's a really good video.
I like the "Eyes, hands, butt, feet" quote.
The gokart bits look like CRAZY fun.
I like the "Eyes, hands, butt, feet" quote.
The gokart bits look like CRAZY fun.
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hitbychance
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Re: The Dog That Killed Hoonage. (MinisterofDOOM)
Very well done, i got to say i agree with everything he said.
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wa-chiss
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Re: (Veriest1)
It's true what he said. All this automatic bullsh!t is gonna make kids sh!tty drivers. Hand turn wheel, feet push pedals, eyes drive car. Thats how it should be.
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Mr1der
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Re: (wa-chiss)
a** lets you know if you need to back off the throttlewa-chiss wrote:It's true what he said. All this automatic bullsh!t is gonna make kids sh!tty drivers. Hand turn wheel, feet push pedals, eyes drive car. Thats how it should be.
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AZhitman
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A few thoughts...
Those "simpler cars" he speaks of haven't gone away. The reader sounds a bit like an obstinate old grandma, who can't figure out her new VCR.
See, the narrator is, I'm sure, comfortable with HIS level of proficiency. But, I'd like to see him drive a straight-cut 1st gear, and unsprung clutch (or no clutch at all), take away his power steering, progressive dampening, and radial tires... THEN let's see how comfy he is with his whole "hands feet eyes butt" theory.
Better yet, let's put fuel mixture and spark timing control back in the cockpit - I mean, he's obviously spoiled by FPR's, ECU's and electronic ignition advance, right?
To assert that the GTR "mimics the feeling of being on edge, without ever really getting near it" is absurd.
Maybe the rant should be less about automakers and more about the pathetically easy drivers' tests that most states have adopted.
Those "simpler cars" he speaks of haven't gone away. The reader sounds a bit like an obstinate old grandma, who can't figure out her new VCR.
See, the narrator is, I'm sure, comfortable with HIS level of proficiency. But, I'd like to see him drive a straight-cut 1st gear, and unsprung clutch (or no clutch at all), take away his power steering, progressive dampening, and radial tires... THEN let's see how comfy he is with his whole "hands feet eyes butt" theory.
Better yet, let's put fuel mixture and spark timing control back in the cockpit - I mean, he's obviously spoiled by FPR's, ECU's and electronic ignition advance, right?
To assert that the GTR "mimics the feeling of being on edge, without ever really getting near it" is absurd.
Maybe the rant should be less about automakers and more about the pathetically easy drivers' tests that most states have adopted.
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MinisterofDOOM
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Re: (AZhitman)
Sorry, Greg, but not only did you competely miss the point, your analogies are also absurd. Comparing TCS to computer controlled ignition timing almost seems like you're intentionally missing the point.
But if you want to have it your way, why not force the driver to spin a distributor by hand? Or push an ignitor button 400 times a second. Hell, at that point let's just Fred Flintstone it and push with our feet. There's a huge difference between computer control of beyond-human-perception items and interfering crap like TCS that doesn't turn all the way off. And you being a classic Buick and Datsun guy should know there are still plenty of people who prefer a carb over FI and a computer.
The point of this video is that average drivers are not F1 drivers. We aren't looking for every last hundredth of a second. And in fact, most of us would prefer to sacrifice lap times (if we're even driving on a track) to enjoy a little more involvement with the car.
It IS entirely possible to have a superbadass monster performing car that's still easy to drive that DOESN'T use computers to drive for you. My favorite example is the Viper. It's a BEAST, and for a long time ABS was an option. But ask anyone who has driven one: they're super easy to drive. No TCS. No VDC. No automated manual gearbox. Just some really, really good engineering.
The point is that more tech is not the solution to everything and it's often possible to have MORE FUN with a slower car if that car is more involving. The point of driving is to drive. The more of that you hand off to the car, the less there is for the driver to enjoy.
The car should NEVER second-guess the driver. Assist, sure. Power steering, power brakes, VTC, etc....that's all ASSISTANCE. VDC is INTERFERENCE. And when you can't turn it all the way off it ruins the car.
I am all for getting help for my car WHEN I ASK FOR IT. But the car does NOT know better than me. It might know how to get a faster lap time better, but unless I'm getting paid to go a hundredth faster I don't give a damn about that. I'd rather push MYSELF a little harder to go faster and enjoy the interaction with the car.
But if you want to have it your way, why not force the driver to spin a distributor by hand? Or push an ignitor button 400 times a second. Hell, at that point let's just Fred Flintstone it and push with our feet. There's a huge difference between computer control of beyond-human-perception items and interfering crap like TCS that doesn't turn all the way off. And you being a classic Buick and Datsun guy should know there are still plenty of people who prefer a carb over FI and a computer.
The point of this video is that average drivers are not F1 drivers. We aren't looking for every last hundredth of a second. And in fact, most of us would prefer to sacrifice lap times (if we're even driving on a track) to enjoy a little more involvement with the car.
It IS entirely possible to have a superbadass monster performing car that's still easy to drive that DOESN'T use computers to drive for you. My favorite example is the Viper. It's a BEAST, and for a long time ABS was an option. But ask anyone who has driven one: they're super easy to drive. No TCS. No VDC. No automated manual gearbox. Just some really, really good engineering.
The point is that more tech is not the solution to everything and it's often possible to have MORE FUN with a slower car if that car is more involving. The point of driving is to drive. The more of that you hand off to the car, the less there is for the driver to enjoy.
The car should NEVER second-guess the driver. Assist, sure. Power steering, power brakes, VTC, etc....that's all ASSISTANCE. VDC is INTERFERENCE. And when you can't turn it all the way off it ruins the car.
I am all for getting help for my car WHEN I ASK FOR IT. But the car does NOT know better than me. It might know how to get a faster lap time better, but unless I'm getting paid to go a hundredth faster I don't give a damn about that. I'd rather push MYSELF a little harder to go faster and enjoy the interaction with the car.
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nissangirl74
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Re: (MinisterofDOOM)
I gotta agree with you on this one MoD. I'd much rather drive a car that responds to what I'm doing. I don't need it to think for me. I know how to drive.
Re: (nissangirl74)
Yup, the point is not that technology is bad. With no technology we would still be riding horses.
The point is to use that technology to make the individual parts function better, while leaving the driving to the driver.
MOD nails it with the difference between assistance and interference.
The point is to use that technology to make the individual parts function better, while leaving the driving to the driver.
MOD nails it with the difference between assistance and interference.
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MinisterofDOOM
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Re: (bobotech)
Exactly! If you mask the point of failure, you just make things worse. That pants-soiling moment is important and may save your life down the road.bobotech wrote:A car should allow you to kill yourself by driving it wrong.
Otherwise, how will you learn?
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Chaotic_Warlord
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FN-QR
I can honestly say that I've never owned a car with ABS, or TCS, or any of that crap. Yeah I have a 95 240SX, but it doesn't have ABS neither did my 96 Galant, or any of my other cars. Personally I don't like ABS, I freak out whenever I drive a car that has it and feel the ABS shudder, it makes me think that I've broken something on the car. I love that I can lock the brakes up, downshift, and feel my balls in my throat as I go sliding sideways. I love that I control my car, my car doesn't control me.
I take this video as saying that we as a human race have become so lazy that we can't be bothered to even think while we drive. This is our future...
http://abcnews.go.com/Technolo...age=1
We have reached the point where technology isn't used to make life easier, it's use to control life.
I take this video as saying that we as a human race have become so lazy that we can't be bothered to even think while we drive. This is our future...
http://abcnews.go.com/Technolo...age=1
We have reached the point where technology isn't used to make life easier, it's use to control life.
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breadbox
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Re: FN-QR (Chaotic_Warlord)
Screw that noise^
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AZhitman
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Re: (Red coupe)
Makes sense when it's put that way.Red coupe wrote:Yup, the point is not that technology is bad. With no technology we would still be riding horses.
The point is to use that technology to make the individual parts function better, while leaving the driving to the driver.
MOD nails it with the difference between assistance and interference.
I think the OP (video) could have been clearer... the way he presented it, it sounds like a rant against all assistive tech, which is silly.
Some of the new electronic manuals are SO much faster than a traditional manual, and don't really take anything away from the driver - unless you absolutely MUST left your leg and press a pedal... You still need to know the optimal down / up shift points. Another good example is the move towards rev-matching trans (like on the 370Z). Sure, we can all learn h-t downshifting - But if you can apply that focus to clipping an apex *just* a bit tighter, or modulating the brake a *hair* more, why wouldn't you?
Then again, when I track the G, all that crap gets turned off anyway...
AND, in my defense, I HAVE railed against the idiotic adaptive cruise control systems in use by M-B and Infiniti... Hate it. Feel free to search for it.