The $0.99 mod that works!!!!!
I was going to leave your imaginary side alone... guess you wanna dig yourself deeper into pothole.
I don't care what module or plug in you have, as long as you are using factory ECU without modification, IAT sensor are not going to affect your fuel map ... it stated clearly on FSM. Because no fuel management change, thus no performance affected.
Unless you can pull up the source code / programming code fromECU, and show it to me that factory ECU will put IAT sensor into count, or else NO,IAT sensor is not going to effect KD24E performance.
And like I said, ECU do not use IAT sensor information for fuel management. Your "without IAT sensor, car run like poorly" phenomenon probably is due to ECU will go to "safe mode" if no IAT sensor detected. The same thing if you unplug engine temperature sensor, but only engine temperature sensor WILL alter fuel management.
Since you are not that smart afterall, I guess you probably won't able to, or cannot pull the coding from ECU. But there is one thing you can at least try before you can cry out loud in front of you mama. Show me the dyno chart with both 4.7k ohm mod and without, PLUS wideband O2 reading on the chart, proofing your 4.7k ohm resistor will work, or else, just go home and let your mum pat on your butt.
I have FSM and other sources that back me up. You don't.Your " if you don't believe me, you can come to drive me car" crap just won't proof your point. period.
I don't care what module or plug in you have, as long as you are using factory ECU without modification, IAT sensor are not going to affect your fuel map ... it stated clearly on FSM. Because no fuel management change, thus no performance affected.
Unless you can pull up the source code / programming code fromECU, and show it to me that factory ECU will put IAT sensor into count, or else NO,IAT sensor is not going to effect KD24E performance.
And like I said, ECU do not use IAT sensor information for fuel management. Your "without IAT sensor, car run like poorly" phenomenon probably is due to ECU will go to "safe mode" if no IAT sensor detected. The same thing if you unplug engine temperature sensor, but only engine temperature sensor WILL alter fuel management.
Since you are not that smart afterall, I guess you probably won't able to, or cannot pull the coding from ECU. But there is one thing you can at least try before you can cry out loud in front of you mama. Show me the dyno chart with both 4.7k ohm mod and without, PLUS wideband O2 reading on the chart, proofing your 4.7k ohm resistor will work, or else, just go home and let your mum pat on your butt.
I have FSM and other sources that back me up. You don't.Your " if you don't believe me, you can come to drive me car" crap just won't proof your point. period.
Alright lets go into the basice of engine management. First of all ANY mechanic knows that the ecu in ANY atuo needs to know the temperature of the air coming into the engine for a VERY good reason. You can ask ANY automotive engineer this question and they will tell you the same. ALL autos that I heve ever seen monitor the outside air temp and adjust fuel and timing for air density and temp. Cooler air is more dense and requires more fuel to produce efficient combustion. Cooler fuel is both more difficule to ignite AND atomizes less easily. And just the opposite can be said for high temperatures, the fuel ignites much easier and atomizes much easier. For example: in low temperatures say freezing the engine needs more fuel because less fuel is atomized as it is sprayed from hte injector and it needs to be ignited much sooner because it burns more slowly. Now lets take an engine runing in a 90 degree environment, the fuel atomizes easier so less is needed to produce a good mixture and it also ignites very easy so the timing needs to be backed off to prevent detonation. ALL automotive engineers know this simple fact and have to program the ecm to compensate for temp for this fact. You can go to ANY message board for ANY type of auto and find this fact to be true. ALL autos I have ever seen monitor outside air temp for this very fact but they do it by different methods. In early obd1 cars they used a separate IAT sensor because MAF sensors were very unreliable. As you draw closer they started to incorporate the air temp into the MAF and if there is a separate IAT it is for diagnostics. If you wanna go and think you are a know-it-all and you are always right then that is fine but next time pick a fight with somebody like yourself who does NOT turn wrenches for a living and just lives out of books like a regular computer geek does ! At this point in time I dont care if I get kicked off of this forum because I know that I am right and I dont go picking fights with people and act like Im an idiot. I treat people on here with respect and expect the same back. I have been in the auto industry my entire life and have serviced almost every brand of auto available in the U.S. and I only speak about something when I know what I am talking about. If Im wrong Ill admit it but I dont dream up little fairy tales because I dont have the time for B.S. now if youll excuse me I am going back to repairing cars for a living !
And by the way, owning a FSM doesnt make you a qualified technician and it certainly doesnt qualify you to run your mouth. A FSM isnt there to explain to you how everything works it is there to help you diagnose a problem with the vehicle, and half the time they arent much help for that. I have a whole stack of FSM's that arent worth the paper they are printed on. Only real-world experience and training is going to teach you how cars work and only after that will you know that there is a LOT of info that isnt in the book............
There're 2 things you must know.1. Our MAF is hotwire type. Alot of discussion about Hot Wire type MAF. Many debate of these type of MAF, about air temperature put into calculation for fuel... for me, I believe it does. Therefore, IAT is not neccesary.2. KA24E factory ECU do not use IAT sensor information for fuel management.Air temperature affect car EVERY performance - TrueIAT sensor in KA24E affect fuel management, thus performance - False.KA24E ecu just don't use IAT sensor reading for fuel.
p/s: in new school theory, we believe any warm air is bad, because it cause detonation and loose density of air -> less performance. To better atomize fuel, fuel is heat up properly before injected, no matter what the temperature outside.
p/s: in new school theory, we believe any warm air is bad, because it cause detonation and loose density of air -> less performance. To better atomize fuel, fuel is heat up properly before injected, no matter what the temperature outside.
FINALLY we can have a conversation without insults !!!! And now that we are talking all civil like there are a few things you should know. !. your first statement is pretty accurate and IAT is probably not "necessary" but it is there for a purpose. 2. I have been told what the book says and I will probably regret saying this but if it clearly stated that IAT doesnt affect fuel then it is wrong. 3. I know first hand, and so do many other people on this forum, that reguardless of wether my mod works or not the IAT does affect fuel on this car. 4. There are a few things that I am going to do here; first give me an address, any that you wish, and I will ship you 3 different resistors to try, I'll even solder on terminals and wrap them in cute little pink ribbons. Second I am going to go next door to the nissan dealer and see if their scan tool is capable of recording a snapshot of the engine data. And if it is I will record and post readings both with and without my resistor in place. A dyno is out of the question for now because I have no access to one, however if I do find one then I will get some measurements from one. BUT if I am able to post my readings from a scan tool it will still prove that the IAT affects fuel even if I am dreaming up the fact my mod works. Again I will clearly state that it does not in fact affect WOT performance because like chris said the ecm is in open loop during WOT. But that is why I like it because it affects performance where it counts, while you are cruising around town. Like I said before, my car runs better now than it ever has and it runs more smoothly at low RPM conditions.
This subject has come up many times in the past. some say it works some say it dont and everything in between. This particular thread has gotten way out of control over this simple little modification to the factory design. Does it work? I dont know. Does it effect fuel control ,its not suppose to. it is supose to be a back up if the coolant temp sensor fails. It will in that event tell the ecm about what the engine temp is for start up enrichment. then once running it uses a fail safe for the coolant temp sensor by gradually simulating what the engine temp should be based on the initial intake temp sensor reading. I was always led to believe that was the function of the Intake temp sensor. A back up to get the car running. Even on OBDII nissans that is one of its functions but it serves another purpose in OBDII. Since OBDII requires emissions monitering continously for fuel control It is constantly looking to see if length of run time combined with engine coolant temp compared to air coming in makes logical sence. If it doesnt It will throw the car into a preset fuel map and use logic to simulate the engine temp for fuel control.
With that said and spelled out as the "published" operation of the sensor. What he mentioned earlier about me saying it wouldnt be the first time engineering was wrong. I need to sort of correct what I said. Its not that engineering was wrong but it was what they told me. With nissans strict protection of design it may be certain things are not published of how the ECM operates because its privleged information.
What we were talking about was an instance where I was having a problem with a 2000 maxima having a serious lack of horse power but had a smooth steady acceleration and idled beautifully. After making an incorrect diagnostic on the vehicle due to its striking similarities to a TSB we had out. I jumped the gun and called it that. Well clearly it that didnt fix it. I ended up getting techline involved in it during diagnostics because the airflow meter seemed to be registering normal[with in range] but every thing else flat out indicated it was running out of gas. all typical checks for this revealed nothing. Tech-line in conjunction with engineering were sending me down this lame road of diagnostics that was getting me know where. They even suggested I swap an Airflow meter out of a known good car. Did that and the car acted exactly the same absolutly no difference. put the old one back in. Anyhow after several days of dealing with techline I gave up on them and went out on my own and decided to take a shot at reprograming the ecm with the current part number for the airflow meter that was in the car [AD200 for the nissan techs in the group] After the reprogram the car ran like absoulute crap. It ran like it had a bad airflow meter.Threw the same airflow meter out of the known good car i used earlier and it ran great no lack of power nothing.
Now why would this car run ok but just lack power with a bad airflow meter? why did reprograming it show the true problem?why before the program when putting a good airflow meter in it not help it? Because the ECM was in some sort of fail safe for the MAF. I was thrilled I found the problem and fixed it. I called techline back and told them the good news. Their response amazed me. Imediatly upon me telling him that he said there is no failsafe for the maf on that car. He then went and spoke with engineering and called me back later to insist there was no failsafe on the car. It was plain as day there was so either somebody is lying to me or engineering is a bunch of retards. I lean toward the lying part since engineering thinks they may be protecting their technology who knows.
Any how with my piece said lets knock off the in your face attitude in this thread. It has improved but I still see it in the posts.
Scott:D
With that said and spelled out as the "published" operation of the sensor. What he mentioned earlier about me saying it wouldnt be the first time engineering was wrong. I need to sort of correct what I said. Its not that engineering was wrong but it was what they told me. With nissans strict protection of design it may be certain things are not published of how the ECM operates because its privleged information.
What we were talking about was an instance where I was having a problem with a 2000 maxima having a serious lack of horse power but had a smooth steady acceleration and idled beautifully. After making an incorrect diagnostic on the vehicle due to its striking similarities to a TSB we had out. I jumped the gun and called it that. Well clearly it that didnt fix it. I ended up getting techline involved in it during diagnostics because the airflow meter seemed to be registering normal[with in range] but every thing else flat out indicated it was running out of gas. all typical checks for this revealed nothing. Tech-line in conjunction with engineering were sending me down this lame road of diagnostics that was getting me know where. They even suggested I swap an Airflow meter out of a known good car. Did that and the car acted exactly the same absolutly no difference. put the old one back in. Anyhow after several days of dealing with techline I gave up on them and went out on my own and decided to take a shot at reprograming the ecm with the current part number for the airflow meter that was in the car [AD200 for the nissan techs in the group] After the reprogram the car ran like absoulute crap. It ran like it had a bad airflow meter.Threw the same airflow meter out of the known good car i used earlier and it ran great no lack of power nothing.
Now why would this car run ok but just lack power with a bad airflow meter? why did reprograming it show the true problem?why before the program when putting a good airflow meter in it not help it? Because the ECM was in some sort of fail safe for the MAF. I was thrilled I found the problem and fixed it. I called techline back and told them the good news. Their response amazed me. Imediatly upon me telling him that he said there is no failsafe for the maf on that car. He then went and spoke with engineering and called me back later to insist there was no failsafe on the car. It was plain as day there was so either somebody is lying to me or engineering is a bunch of retards. I lean toward the lying part since engineering thinks they may be protecting their technology who knows.
Any how with my piece said lets knock off the in your face attitude in this thread. It has improved but I still see it in the posts.
Scott:D
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s13sr20chris
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s13sr20chris
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Originally posted by pmkls2 And now that we are talking all civil like there are a few things you should know. !.
I apologize for insulting you, if any. But I cannot stand people using "I have 10 years experience" or "Certifian Technician" or "a PhD degree" as a bragging tools to show they are right or know more. I follow rules by the book, reliable sources, eyewitness fact or hardcopy effidence. (driving your car is not a realiable sources, because too many environment variance)
Like I said, most of us believe KA24E programming do not use IAT reading as fuel map input. This theory can be broken if you can show a dyno chart, with WB o2 reading (as fuel amount change). Another solution is using scanning tool. Since scanning tool is not available, but this can be easily archieve by using some piggy back system, which read ecu to injectors reading ( and alter, then resend to injector for proper fueling).
Yet, this mod is not worth further reseaching even if it DO alterfuel. Getting better fuel at low-end, doesn't mean you get good fuel at mid-range or top-end. Total fuel management ( stand alone) is only way to go.
Thank you for your offer on the soldered terminal. My fuel system is a mess now, and I can't afford any further mod until I got my fuel management fix. (Working on my the other car - GVR4) But there's 1 thing you can do to help my leaking-real-bad-injector ( just 1. how bad is the leak? I can soak up the whole kitchien towel if I drive it real hard with 5.5psi boost) Any spare 24E top feed lying around?
peace
I apologize for insulting you, if any. But I cannot stand people using "I have 10 years experience" or "Certifian Technician" or "a PhD degree" as a bragging tools to show they are right or know more. I follow rules by the book, reliable sources, eyewitness fact or hardcopy effidence. (driving your car is not a realiable sources, because too many environment variance)
Like I said, most of us believe KA24E programming do not use IAT reading as fuel map input. This theory can be broken if you can show a dyno chart, with WB o2 reading (as fuel amount change). Another solution is using scanning tool. Since scanning tool is not available, but this can be easily archieve by using some piggy back system, which read ecu to injectors reading ( and alter, then resend to injector for proper fueling).
Yet, this mod is not worth further reseaching even if it DO alterfuel. Getting better fuel at low-end, doesn't mean you get good fuel at mid-range or top-end. Total fuel management ( stand alone) is only way to go.
Thank you for your offer on the soldered terminal. My fuel system is a mess now, and I can't afford any further mod until I got my fuel management fix. (Working on my the other car - GVR4) But there's 1 thing you can do to help my leaking-real-bad-injector ( just 1. how bad is the leak? I can soak up the whole kitchien towel if I drive it real hard with 5.5psi boost) Any spare 24E top feed lying around?
peace
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s13sr20chris
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i have some ka24e top feed injectors. they are old, stock, and absolutely useless to me. how about i sell you all four for $35 plus s/h?
NISTECHi have been there a few times. i am scared to start talking because sometimes i am too busy to get on the net for days or even weeks at a time. however, if your load is too great i will come in and help. i would quite enjoy it actually. i just didnt want someone to get their car halfway fixed and then i disappear. i will do it and if i disappear it will hopefully not be too much of a headache for you.
NISTECHi have been there a few times. i am scared to start talking because sometimes i am too busy to get on the net for days or even weeks at a time. however, if your load is too great i will come in and help. i would quite enjoy it actually. i just didnt want someone to get their car halfway fixed and then i disappear. i will do it and if i disappear it will hopefully not be too much of a headache for you.
No chris thats fine. I can pick up just about where you leave off if thats the case. By all means post in there and dont worry about it. The load is not a problem for me. What I was getting at is having another experianced nissan techs point of veiw or experiance with a problem would be a good thing. like you may see something on the east coast I dont see out here. Or for example you posted about a quest rattle that your guys figured out we hadnt yet. That may not have been you it might have been KAdrifter cant remember but my point is you have the same type of hands on as i do on more then 1 model nissan. and you live in a more harsh climate so you may see things I dont always see and can throw me a bone [so to speak] on where the problem may lie in the car then logic can take over and figure out whats wrong from there. not to mention the fact also that you have the same level of certification with nissan I do.
Originally posted by s13sr20chris i have some ka24e top feed injectors. they are old, stock, and absolutely useless to me. how about i sell you all four for $35 plus s/h?
I have four 370cc ready to go with my new fuel management.I don't need 3 extra stock KA injectors, and put $35 for a waste.Thanks thou...
I have four 370cc ready to go with my new fuel management.I don't need 3 extra stock KA injectors, and put $35 for a waste.Thanks thou...
Well, I want to address many subjects so bare with me and I'll try to do so in an orderly fashion. Firstly, NISTECH, I didnt mean to misquote you about engineering being "wrong" but I was trying to convey the point that they in fact do hold back info for the exact reason that you stated about them not wanting anyone including factory trained techs knowing about whats going on inside their ecu's. I have personally experienced this with GM although they admittedly tell us that they dont want us knowing whats going on inside their modules. As for not being able to access the data streat in my ecu, I was afraid that was the case. That is why I was always partial to GM's electronics because they have let you access the data stream basically since the begining of time. I also feel a need to apologize to everyone for the "in your face" attitude because it was unnecessary. I also agree that this thread sure did get all blown out of proportion over something so simple. All that I was trying to do was pass on some info to my fellow gearheads since this forum has been a lifesaver for me on several occasions.And chris my remark about no more comments from the peanut gallery was directed towards gyfer and nobody else. I always like a good ole fashioned debate as long as it stays civilized. And gyfer.......lol I actually wanted to avoid the whole " I have more certifications than you" crap because honestly it annoys me when people do that. I only stated my qualifications after somebody started the whole name-calling thing by calling me a kid and said that they went to school for this. I also agree with you that there is not substitue for total engine management and this mod doesnt really warrant any research especially if you dont have a stock vehicle. Now, finally, I have said this before and I will clearly say it again for everyone to see..... This mod is NOT a substitute for PROPERLY having your ecm remapped and I certainly do not claim otherwise. It is a cheap and poor way to enhance performance if you know what you are doing and understand that it costs a dollar so dont have very high expectations about what you will achieve. I purchased some resistors fully knowing that it wasnt like a remap and actually expected it to adversely affect performance if it even changed it at all. I was both surprised and delighted with my results ESPECIALLY since I only spent a dollar and 5 mins to achieve this. I didnt want people to get the wrong impression about this in any way and probably should have indicated this more clearly at the beginning. I also didnt expect to get such a response either. Anyhow, I hope this finally clears things up and somehow I am going to try to get some readings from my o2 sensor to post and show the differences with the IAT and the resistor in place. I am also going to throw a couple different resistors in the mix just to see what difference they make.
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s13sr20chris
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s13sr20chris
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Cool Chris I will enjoy getting your perspective on things in there. I run the crew at work but I do not go without bouncing diagnostic problems off of the other guys on my crew. this is why we work as a team and the years of experiance between us all can be truly multiplied to help the customers out.
Does anybody know if these ecm's use a "typical" PROM ?????? I'd kinda like to find this out because I was starting to dabble in custom PROM programming with my last car and I havent really even done any researching on these since I bought mine. I put so many miles on it that I rarely get into anything other than basic maintenance and the quick easy bolt on stuff. It seems these days that I never have time to work on my own car anymore.......
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s13sr20chris
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I like that idea a lot. GM may not be superior in any way to any other ecm, but the simplicity in design and the fact that anybody can program a GM ecm with "off-the-shelf" equipment is appealing to me. I'm sorry but the idea of paying $300+ for a remap is absolutely absurd to me especially if you do a lot of tuning and need to have the ecm custom taylored to your application. But I'm going to look into that because I love my 240 but I do have a spending limit lol.....
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240sxcoupe
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my first post, and it comes in the free horsepower thread. ill take any horsepower for a buck. 1hp per buck is also good with me too. but i dont see any like that. yo, for the noobs, pmkls2, u could make alot of things easier by posting pics of this little resistor you put into the IAT, whatever that stands for.
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TruboostPerformance
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A mod that works for free, is crush the vaccum inlet on the FPR so that you will get that same fuel gain, instead of soildering a resistor and chancing it going bad and leaving you on the side of the road. Make sure you use a fuel pressure gauge when doing this to make sure you do not increase the fuel pressure too much. Use a deepwell socket and put around the nipple and tap it down and your set, and the same way you upgrade those 1st gen eclipse BOV's, cheap mods somtimes work just as good.
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240sxcoupe
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TruboostPerformance wrote:A mod that works for free, is crush the vaccum inlet on the FPR so that you will get that same fuel gain, instead of soildering a resistor and chancing it going bad and leaving you on the side of the road..
The resistor is plugged in and the IAT is still intact so if anything were to happen all you have to do is plug it back in, but pumping up the fuel pressure is a good way of boosting power too........
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s13sr20chris
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