T3 vs T2

[WDRacing]

Well I was at full boost by no later then 3200, depending on what gear I was in and I was using that exact turbo minus the ball bearing center section. So the rule of thumb is to figure 300-500 rpm faster spool.

To me, having 14 psi available from 3000rpm on is perfect. I don't race other then drag. But even on the street...you simply don't need full boost by like 2200 rpm. If it boosts that early, I guarantee its a heat pump in the upper rpm ranges.

If I slipped the clutch, I'd be at full boost at 3grand easy. And thats with a turbo that will support 450 whp. I don't just mean what the compressor flows either, that number is garbage.

WD

[Terran]

Hey this may sound newb, but will the JGS Turbo kit work with an aftermarket boost controller? I assume so right? I'm just not sure if an aftermarket controller completly replaces the Wastegate or what.

[nissanfanatic]

I'm sorry, but 220whp wouldn't keep me happy for long..

Revhard/jgs and T04E 50trim FTW on cheap setups. Although in the world of cars, I haven't spent much at all on my setup... Just save money and buy the good **** the first time.. I really wish I had never wasted my time with a Revhard/T04B setup.

[S0lid_Snake]

thanks WD, thats exactly what i wanted to hear... plus its good for more power than i would ever want on a street car, so its even better

[Edub1]

How much savings are we talking? I think 250HP will need all the same stuff that 300 will. Unless we are talking $1000 or more what is the point?

I have a super 60 and I fabricated my DP by having a welder weld a 3" 90* weld bend straight to the internal WG housing and a 3" 45* mandrel bend to that. Was a little bit of a PIA as the 45 had to be re-done.

Anyway, I agree. It doesn't make much sense to go T2.

[Chezedik]

My $.02:

What is the probably most mass produced turbo ever?

Garrett T3. That said, how can any of you complain about a turbo that you can probably get for $70 or less, and get new components and have a T3/T4 for less than $300 (right at 300 with full shaft balancing for lower threshhold and ceramic coating - all Garrett parts!)

WD keep on preaching, sometimes (just sometimes) you get it right. Leave the T2x's to poor *** Honda owners and SR f***.

[NateDogg]

I don't like T2 turbos but there is one variation GT2871R with .83 A/R turbine that will crank out 400whp quite efficiently.

I quite prefer my 57 trim T3T04E with ceramic BB and ceramic coated turbine housing. It is easy to stay out of boost around town, saving gas but it is just as easy to get into boost if I want.

Full boost (10psi) in 4th gear at 3200rpm

[Chaotic_Warlord]

Just out of curiosity and I may be off base here but If you take a stock KA with say 60K on it and drop a T28 onto it will it produce the same amount of power or more power than a AK with say 140K? Does the age and condition of the engine have any bearing on the power output?

Now lets say you take that same T28 and mount it onto a fully built KA block shouldn't it produce more power? Your HP should rise depending on what compression ratio you have, so to take a T28 off a black top SR that has a cr of 8.5 or 8 and mount it on a 9.5 or 9 cr stock KA block you wont see the same 250hp you did on the SR you're hp rating will drop in conjuction with your compression ratio.

Also take into account what other mods you have done to your car wneh try to make a ballpark HP guess, is there a more aggressive cam setup on the car, is your fuel setup right, ect...

Personally I plan to run a bigger T3/T4 setup once the whole thing is done, simply because I do have a HP goal of 250 - 300 once the car is initially boosted and plan to top out at the 500 HP range.

If you are on a budget and don't have the funds to fork out the money for lower compression cams there is always the headgasket trick, but even this only works to a certain point, and it's not a permanent fix, its just a temporary way to squeeze a little bit more out of the stock setup on a budget.

For those that don't know the headgasket trick there was a very good explanation of it in Sport Compact Car a month or 2 ago. Some guy asked about doing it on an S2k and Joquiot explained it in depth and in laymans terms, I'll have to check it when I get home and give you guys the actual issue, I believe it was the october issue. But the basic jist of the idea is that the thicker the headgasket the lower compression you'll have, so if your stock head gasket thickness is .002 then if you replace it with a .005 headgasket your cr would drop like .5, don't quote me on that i'll get back to you on the actual issue and quote what was said.

As tempting as it is for me to boost the stock engine, I've read about to many popping their engine to make it comfortable fo rme to hold the notion with any great confidence. I would rather build the block and just wait for the boost.

[KATwo40]

First off, WD, if you see fit, delete my responses, as it pretty much goes off topic, but I couldn't resist. It might be more appropriate to move Chaotic's and my posts to a new thread.

Just out of curiosity and I may be off base here but If you take a stock KA with say 60K on it and drop a T28 onto it will it produce the same amount of power or more power than a AK with say 140K? Does the age and condition of the engine have any bearing on the power output?

This rings true with any engine. Ring wear and blowby have a direct impact on an engine's power output in any situation, be it forced induction or natural aspiration.

Now lets say you take that same T28 and mount it onto a fully built KA block shouldn't it produce more power? Your HP should rise depending on what compression ratio you have, so to take a T28 off a black top SR that has a cr of 8.5 or 8 and mount it on a 9.5 or 9 cr stock KA block you wont see the same 250hp you did on the SR you're hp rating will drop in conjuction with your compression ratio.

The CR in boost has little to do with power output. It really has more to do with off-boost operation.

Also take into account what other mods you have done to your car wneh try to make a ballpark HP guess, is there a more aggressive cam setup on the car, is your fuel setup right, ect...

These have nothing to do with whether a T2 footprint is appropriate for the KA.

If you are on a budget and don't have the funds to fork out the money for lower compression cams there is always the headgasket trick, but even this only works to a certain point, and it's not a permanent fix, its just a temporary way to squeeze a little bit more out of the stock setup on a budget.

For those that don't know the headgasket trick there was a very good explanation of it in Sport Compact Car a month or 2 ago. Some guy asked about doing it on an S2k and Joquiot explained it in depth and in laymans terms, I'll have to check it when I get home and give you guys the actual issue, I believe it was the october issue. But the basic jist of the idea is that the thicker the headgasket the lower compression you'll have, so if your stock head gasket thickness is .002 then if you replace it with a .005 headgasket your cr would drop like .5, don't quote me on that i'll get back to you on the actual issue and quote what was said.

While still being off topic (T2 vs. T3), I'll have to return an argument for this (sorry WD).

It's been proven that using a thicker headgasket on a stock deck height (not milling the deck to accept the gasket) results in a knock-limited engine on low boost applications. The issue is that the combustion chamber is moved too far from the piston to maintain the quench zone. Consequently, the intake charge is allowed to "wander", if you will, to the outer edges of the cylinder, rather than being contained in the combustion chamber. Once this happens, hotspots are created and the engine is more prone to knock before reaching MBT (mean best torque). Higher boost applications don't necessarily suffer this dilema.

As tempting as it is for me to boost the stock engine, I've read about to many popping their engine to make it comfortable fo rme to hold the notion with any great confidence. I would rather build the block and just wait for the boost.

The things that blow stock engines are the same things that blow fully built engines. Primarily, poor tuning is the culprit. My 200+k mile stock KA would be a good example of a well boosted engine that survived just fine.

[xero_morality]

I have only been researching turboing my 240 for about 2.5 months so far but really have been going back and forth between whether to go t2/t3. Just to give eveyone some background I have 96 240sx with 83,000 miles and it runs and looks new. I plan on driving this car forever but the only problem right now is it is my daily driver and will be for about a year more.

Money wasnt really a major concern in my decision because even if I went the T2 route I would get a new t28 so there wouldnt really be a big price difference between the 2 setups(I want long term reliabilty). But the fact that the bottom mount setups have those ebay intercooler kits with piping that mounts right up was a huge plus since I dont have the ability to do any welding. Also going the T2 route just seemed easier from a NEWB perspective.

Well after a few conversations with Lance at JGS (poor guy, I annoyed him im sure) and reading about 50 threads debating this issue pros/cons I have decided to go top mount. And here were the reasons that finally swayed me that way.

1) First I am only looking at 200-250 to get use to running a turboed setup. Of course the T2 route can easily support this but if I go the T3 route once my car is just my hobby car I can start playing with it and not worry to much that I got the wrong setup.

2) As far as the intercooler piping I found out a coworker of mine has some pretty good welding skills so I will be utilizing him to help with fabbing the piping. He is pretty excited to help out since he is into cars also. If I didnt have this option Lance told me to just wrap the pipe sections tight to fit them and then bring them someplace to get welded once done.

3) Since I am going for long term reliabilty the opinions of some of the more experianced guys on the forum worring about them getting really hot is also steering me to the top mount setup. I dont know alot about cars but that just doesnt sound like something that is going to lend itself to long term reliabilty of my engine. I could be wrong.

4) And lastly, I just really love the way those top mounts look. I cant wait to pop my hood with my buddies around and watch them drool.

So I know this is long winded and simple explaination but I thought it would give some insight into the mind of the newb and some of the issues that might lead someone to go with a bottom mount setup other then just the money factor.

[ghx407]

I just got 234 HP with a T28 @ 10 psi in my DOHC...
Modified by ghx407 at 3:45 AM 12/12/2006

[Chezedik]

Funny, that is what a T3/T04b makes on a bad tune at 8psi. A T04e will pull almost 250 with 8 psi. Still think you made the right choice with a 200 rpm lower threshold?

[WDRacing]

DOH

[ghx407]

Hey, different turbos for different people, if not it'd be boring.

And yes I'm really happy with my choice! My goal was to build a clean, quick-spooling 220 HP daily driver by myself, and I actually got 234 HP.

Honestly, I couldn't be happier.

[WDRacing]

Everyone has goals man. Putting somthing together yourself always feels good.

[Jookmasta]

ya i think i made 242rwhp at 10 psi with my str8 t3 and a horrible horrible tune on the stock maf.................but kudos to u for achieving ur goals.

[ghx407]

Thanks!

[Chezedik]

Must agree with WD (although, he CLAIMS to hate T2's), if your setup is done right, then it is fine.

[WDRacing]

The only time I'd use a T2...would be if I had a second one installed as well.

[Chezedik]

Maybe a couple of GT2871r's.

[WDRacing]

In a twin setup, I'd use 2530's. We used to swap out the stock units on the GTR and use 2530's all the time. Great upgrade and still very responsive. We made just over 650 IIRC on an AWD dyno. Thats just bigger injectors, 2530's and a Power FC. Oh and adjustable cam gears, which when played with, increased spool and brought the power band right inline with the boost curve.

I wish there were guys using them on the KA...then again I wish the KA had a timing belt and two easily adjustable gears.

If anyone makes it through the thread this far, just consider your option thoroughly before actually buying your manifold and turbo setup.

WD

[Edub1]

Drove my car home from the exhaust shop today. With the WG disconnected and hanging open I could hear my super 60 spool up under load. It won't make boost but it was spooling. I can't think of any reason I'd go smaller save for only wanting just over 200HP. This wouldn't be worth the cost and trouble of the project to me. I'd rather do an NA build and be happy with my 175 or whatever I could get.

[hannibal]

About where to find new Super 60s:PhoenixTurbo.com sells them in 0.42 comp/0.48 exh for $675. But thats too much and I tihnk the A/R's are too small.

Most new Super 60s use that smaller A/R. The OEM Z31 and Ford turbos (manuals) use the 0.60/0.63 housings. I'm tempted to think you could buy a used one ($100) and have it rebuilt for another $200 or so. For that price used, you could buy 2 and run one while the other is being rebuilt.

MJM turbos has the bigger A/R's for $650, but thats still too much.http://www.mjmturbos.com/T3Super60stage3.htm

West Coast turbos has rebuilt ones for $389 in both sizes.http://www.westcoast-turbo.com/turboa.html

Last note: Super 60s are made exclusively by Turbonetics, not Garrett. Any Turbonetics dealer should be able to get you one.

I been saying this for months. Edub, Jook, and wild_maxx have some nice super 60 setups...

[Chezedik]

Most new Super 60s use that smaller A/R. The OEM Z31 and Ford turbos (manuals) use the 0.60/0.63 housings. I'm tempted to think you could buy a used one ($100) and have it rebuilt for another $200 or so. For that price used, you could buy 2 and run one while the other is being rebuilt.

Or do exactly what I did. Get the Z31, get a T04b compressor housing, wheel and backing plate. Rebuild yourself. Turbos are not a big mysterious thing, and I think it's highway robbery that shops get away with charging so much for a rebuild (I was quoted $475!!!). Anyway, if you are skittish, send it to me, and I will do it for a small fee.

Anyway, here were my prices:Z31 T3 .60/.63 $70T04b Compressor w/rebuild kit $150Ceramic coating turbine/downpipe $80Balancing assembly (faster spool) $20--------------------------------------------------------------- $320

Makng my friend wish he had a KA instead of an SR.... Priceless.

[safxtacy]

I got a question. Will a topmount manifold and T3 clear the hood? And what about the DP and IC piping?

[Chezedik]

Piping is up to you, but many people on here are using some sort of top mount, so you should be fine. My T04b clears the hood, I changed the headlights to eBay flush lights to fit intercooler piping. I didn't have to, but I did it so that I could have fewer bends for faster spool.

BTW, is the avatar Ozamalti?

[safxtacy]

Thanks for the info. The avatar is I have no clue what. My brother made/traced it off something and put it together himself...so he tells me. I look up osomalti and its def not them.

[hannibal]

Found a decent price for a new Super 60 with 0.63 exhaust housing. $455 from Xclusive Custom Imports.

http://estore.websitepros.com/...o=155

[hannibal]

Another T3 (super 60?) with wastegate included for $495

http://www.034motorsport.com/p...12579