Swirl mark questions

[ArbitrageMan]

I recently bought a 2006 M45 sport, in black. I was very hesitant to buy a black car because every time I see one on the road, the first thing that stands out are the swirl marks. When I bought this one I made sure the paint was in excellent condition. However, in the sun I can see some light swirl marks on the quarter panels and the trunk.

My first question is, how do these swirl marks/scratches form? Are they from washing with a dirty cloth? Using a chamois? Using an orbital polisher? Automatic car washes?

Second of all, I dont mind fixing these myself (clay bar for the residue, meguiars scratch X, then wax), but its getting cold here and Im lazy, so Im cool with paying someone. In general, are professional detailers going to know how to remove these swirl marks? Am I taking too much of a chance by taking it to someone? Am I better off doing it myself (I have zero experience other than applying wax)? Thoughts?

And third, should these scratch removal products (Scratch X) be applied by hand, or by an orbital polisher?

[jlindy]

Clay is always a good start. IMO the Maguire's Scratch X is the Cady Cimaron or Jag X-type of the Maguires product line and is not meant for entire car application. Go with the professional Maguires swirl remover #9 I think and get yourself a porter cable waxer. The swirl remover will get all that out.

After that, there is a huge debate on Waxes and what works and what doesn't. I had problems with black cars until I did the following. First of all, don't use Zaino on a black car. Zaino reflects light and it better on brighter cars like Red. On my black NSX I used to have, I could see slight clouding with Zaino. What you need to use is a decent Carnuba Wax which I was told by a professional detailer that unlike Zaino, you can build multiple layers of wax with multiple applications. The carnuba kind of absorbs the light and gives you an extremely deep looking glossy finish. I've had friends ask me what the heck I used on my car it looked so good. Try that.

[THT]

Swirl marks have many sources, a couple of which you've identified (automatic car washes and using non-microfiber towels). What you should do is:

1. Clay bar the car. This won't address the swirl marks however is necessary prior to the next step: polishing2. Use a polish to work the swirls out...it is important to choose a good polish as well as an appropriate polishing pad.3. After polishing, you'll probably have a few minor swirls left. Hide them by filling them with a glaze.4. Use a synthetic sealant to protect your finish

I can't stress enough the importance of using high-quality microfiber towels any time you touch your car.

A couple things to be wary of:

1. Most, if not all, waxes that you can buy locally have detergents in them which mean they do not build layers on themselves as the new layer takes the previous one off. Look for pure carnuba waxes if this is your goal.

2. Carnuba waxes break down within months while synthetics such as Collinite will last for much longer. A single layer of synthetic is much more effective and efficient than multiple layers of carnuba but that's just my opinion.

3. Machines make your life alot easier. If you plan to detail on your own, I highly suggest investing in a machine like a Porter Cable or Ultimate Detailing Machine. Coupled with the right pads, you can completely detail the exterior of a car in just a couple hours whereas it's a much lengthier process when done by hand.

There are many excellent products to choose from...a few I use are:

Polishes: Poorboy's Professional, Poorboy's SSR 1/2/3 (abrasiveness increases with number), Sonus SFX 1/2/3

Glaze: I really like Poorboy's Black Hole...does wonders on my black M45

Sealant: Zaino Z5 Pro is a fantastic sealant. It is able hide minor imperfections as well as provide great protection. I categorize Collinite 476S as a sealant but most say it's a synthetic wax. Anyhow, very durable and easy to apply

Results:

[ArbitrageMan]

These responses were exactly what I was looking for!! Thanks!

Is applying polish done with the same mechanics as waxing? Put some on the pad of the porter cable, work it in, let it haze then wipe off? THT you mentioned using the right polishing pad. What does that mean?

Im going to assume that light abrasive (SSR 1) is used on light swirls?

P.S. THT that car is awesome.

[THT]

These responses were exactly what I was looking for!! Thanks!

Is applying polish done with the same mechanics as waxing? Put some on the pad of the porter cable, work it in, let it haze then wipe off? THT you mentioned using the right polishing pad. What does that mean?

Im going to assume that light abrasive (SSR 1) is used on light swirls?

P.S. THT that car is awesome.

Pads, like polishes, come in various levels of abrasiveness. I generally use a medium pad and adjust the polish unless the car is either really, really screwed up or looks mostly fine but needs light work. Work it in and wipe it off (doesn't need to haze). Inspect the surface and if it's cleaned up, move on. If not, go with a more abrasive combo until it does clean up. I've actually had to go with super-abrasive combos in the past that got the worst swirls out but created minor ones which I then had to take out with less-abrasive combinations.

Thanks for the compliment. That was the first time I used Black Hole and I'll be using it every time I do a black car from now on.

[paperfootball]

You are in Wahsington DC correct? If you would like I can find you a professional in your area who can do some *real* detailing to your car--not just make-up/oily glazes.

Doing this on your own would require months of reading, about $200+ in products, $325 or so for a good polisher, pads, etc. You could just pay a professional, learn to wash/dry your car correctly, and be done with it.

I own/operate a *real* detail shop here in Memphis, but can find you a talented detailer in your area--someone that I would allow to work on my car.

[CakeDaddy]

Invest $150-$200 into a 7424 porter cable kit with orange cuts pads, blue finish pads, etc.. With a black car this is a must have. Also, invest in the following:

3M Professional Grade Products (seen in pics below)1200 Grit Extra Cut Compound (part num-06060)Swirl Mark Remover/Polish (part num -06064)Perfect-It 300 UltraFina SE Final Step (part num -06068)Meguairs Yellow Wax #26

As long as I own a black car I'll live a die by the above products. I recommend starting with a small section of the car like the rear 1/4 panel. I learned all this from a guy with the same simple instructions I'm giving you.

I recently washed the car and dried it with a leaf blower. I did a fine cut 1200 grit extra cut compound followed by a polish/swirl mark remover then I used an ultra fine SE wax (this stuff aint cheap). All 3M professional grade products and lastly I used 2 coats of the Meguiars Hi-Tech yellow #26. This Meguiars Hi-Tech yellow #26 is the amazing on black. I'll probably hit it with one more coat of the Yellow #26 before I put this baby away for the winter.

I've learned alot here...These guys are on another level when it comes to detailing, waxing, polishing, etc.. Do a search on black cars.http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/

Here is a visual of what I work with. I use a porter cable polisher/buffer (orange light cut pad, blue finessing pad, white polish pad, grey finishing pads) with the 3m products, but the Meguairs yellow #26 I apply and remove by hand.

Take a look at these porter cable kits:http://www.autogeek.net/pocapobu.html

The real test is with the sun directly hitting the carMy ride after I finished:rear driver 1/4 panelhood

Good luck my man....holla at me if you have questions

[paperfootball]

Cakedaddy, FWIW the 3M PI-3000 extra cut compound is not recommended for use by orbital buffer. One should only use such a heavy compound with a rotary buffer because of the nature of abrasive. When an orbital is used and the abrasives don't break down properly micromarring can occur.

Meguiars #105 cuts *almost* as much, but will leave a much better finish via PC(porter cable for those who aren't detailing nerds).

[Fafdawg]

paperfootball, Can you recommend anyone in VA or DC area. I need to get mine done with Professional. Thanks

[DELUNASC]

paperfootball, Would you be able to reccomend a professional detailer for me in the St.Louis area? I have taken my car to detailers before, but they just hide / cover up the imperfections. I would like my black m45 paint professionaly corrected. I would appreciate any advice on locating " the real deal" in my area.

Thanks, CD

[CakeDaddy]

Cakedaddy, FWIW the 3M PI-3000 extra cut compound is not recommended for use by orbital buffer. One should only use such a heavy compound with a rotary buffer because of the nature of abrasive. When an orbital is used and the abrasives don't break down properly micromarring can occur.

Meguiars #105 cuts *almost* as much, but will leave a much better finish via PC(porter cable for those who aren't detailing nerds).

true, but the 3m 1200 extra cut (part num 06060) is smooth as butter . This stuff is a long way from being heavy. The cuttng power is awesome and it breaks down and comes off with ease(sp) without any problems or marring. Thank for the info on the Meguiars #105.. I'll look into that one.


Modified by CakeDaddy at 2:58 PM 11/12/2008

[THT]

I strongly recommend being careful with heavy abrasives. There's a Porsche that a friend of mine used to detail and the owner wanted it polished every weekend...in about two years, he needed to have it re-cleared...

[CakeDaddy]

I strongly recommend being careful with heavy abrasives. There's a Porsche that a friend of mine used to detail and the owner wanted it polished every weekend...in about two years, he needed to have it re-cleared...

I've read a little about this PB blk Hole while browsing on autogeeksonline.net

question: Poorboy's Black Hole? How and at what point do you apply this when detailing your exterior? I read that it can be applied at any time, true? ....and, your car looks amazing thx
Modified by CakeDaddy at 7:57 PM 11/12/2008

[ArbitrageMan]

You are in Wahsington DC correct? If you would like I can find you a professional in your area who can do some *real* detailing to your car--not just make-up/oily glazes.

Doing this on your own would require months of reading, about $200+ in products, $325 or so for a good polisher, pads, etc. You could just pay a professional, learn to wash/dry your car correctly, and be done with it.

I own/operate a *real* detail shop here in Memphis, but can find you a talented detailer in your area--someone that I would allow to work on my car.

Youve got mail

[paperfootball]

true, but the 3m 1200 extra cut (part num 06060) is smooth as butter . This stuff is a long way from being heavy. The cuttng power is awesome and it breaks down and comes off with ease(sp) without any problems or marring. Thank for the info on the Meguiars #105.. I'll look into that one.

Modified by CakeDaddy at 2:58 PM 11/12/2008

It really has nothing to do with "feel" or the "texture" of the compound, moreso with the nature of the abrasive used--it really needs the friction of a rotary in order to preoperly break down. You might not even see such micromarring in full sun, but under 1000 watt haolgens it would be obvious.

I am a use what you want type of guy, so if it works for you cool, but the M105 would be a *much* better choice.

Guys, I can definitely find you a quality detailer. Just shoot me an email:

[email protected]

[paperfootball]

paperfootball, Can you recommend anyone in VA or DC area. I need to get mine done with Professional. Thanks

Just shoot me an email with your contact info.

[email protected]

[GJEMD]

You can invest like Cake suggests or look for the body shop in your area that does high end luxury cars, believe me there is one. They will contract out the #1 detailer a few days a week. This is the person to get the swirls out. I take issue with Cake, you don't want an amateur removing part of the top layer of clear coat from your car. In fact this is the only way to get out swirls. The main issue is NEVER subject a black car to an automated contact car wash. Hand wash only

[zoomie]

I am in Atlanta. Can you recommend someone re: detailing/removing swirls on black M35. Appreciate it!

[CakeDaddy]

The main issue is NEVER subject a black car to an automated contact car wash. Hand wash only

exactly... I see people with these nice new blk cars lined up at these rain tunnel, octopus style automated systems. Bad move! Wash it yourself and blow it dry with a leaf blower. There are numerous way to eliminate swirls/scratched on a black car, but keep in mind that the best products aren't cheap and aren't always found in auto-zone,pep boys, etc... Don't sell out to using cheap product and expect to get results. Visit your local napa paint store for the quality products. Also, do some research on http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/. Sign up and look around and I promnise... you'll find what you are looking for. Good luck and keep it BLACK!

You might not even see such micromarring in full sun, but under 1000 watt haolgens it would be obvious.

LOL... I think the full sun puts out more than a 1000 watts, so thats the unltimate test for me

[zoomie]

In Atlanta, outdoor car washing has been banned due to the drought. So, I am left with few alternatives, if any, other than the detailing option.

[paperfootball]

exactly... I see people with these nice new blk cars lined up at these rain tunnel, octopus style automated systems. Bad move! Wash it yourself and blow it dry with a leaf blower. There are numerous way to eliminate swirls/scratched on a black car, but keep in mind that the best products aren't cheap and aren't always found in auto-zone,pep boys, etc... Don't sell out to using cheap product and expect to get results. Visit your local napa paint store for the quality products. Also, do some research on http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/. Sign up and look around and I promnise... you'll find what you are looking for. Good luck and keep it BLACK!

LOL... I think the full sun puts out more than a 1000 watts, so thats the unltimate test for me

Like I said man, if it works for you--cool. We examine paint under mulitple sources of light to gather the *real* state of the clear and I promise there will be micromarring.

I am not just talking out of my arse I promise.

Ask the guys at autogeek if "ebpcivicsi" from autopia knows his stuff--I didn't just wake up one day and start doing paint correction.

Zoomie, sure let me look for you. Shoot me an email.

[CakeDaddy]

paperfootball

No doubt my man…I’m no expert, but it sounds like you know your stuff and I think we can agree that there is more than one way to obtain a good finish on a black car. I’ve seen those industrial size wattage lamps shining on cars disecting the smallest ticks and etches. I’m glad you are on this forum to help answer questions about black cars and swirls. Good to see black M onwers taking car of the car and paying attention to the smallest details. I’m sure I’ll be asking you a few questions since you are in the biz. Much appreciated.

[ArbitrageMan]

Well we're going to find out exactly who knows what, because the "paint correction specialist" recommended to me is coming at 10:30 AM to fix all my problems.

Ill try to post some before and afters.

Heres a hilarious story. I went to the mall on Thursday afternoon and parked in a garage. I got home and realized that water had dripped, apparently from the roof of the garage, onto the hood of the car and has left some awesome deposits on my hood. And I cant get them off. I'd leave a smiley here, but theres no suicide icon...

[THT]

I've read a little about this PB blk Hole while browsing on autogeeksonline.net

question: Poorboy's Black Hole? How and at what point do you apply this when detailing your exterior? I read that it can be applied at any time, true? ....and, your car looks amazing thx

Modified by CakeDaddy at 7:57 PM 11/12/2008

It has 0 cutting properties and is applied using a 0 cutting pad so you should use it after you're done polishing and using all abrasives (even the most minor ones). I usually apply it just before the wax.

And thanks, yours is lookin' pretty sweet too!

[CakeDaddy]

It has 0 cutting properties and is applied using a 0 cutting pad so you should use it after you're done polishing and using all abrasives (even the most minor ones). I usually apply it just before the wax.

And thanks, yours is lookin' pretty sweet too!

thanks for the info and the props on my car. I ordered some last week so it should arrive anyday now. I've read reviews on this stuff and I like what I saw, but hearing and seeing another blk y34 owner approve of it makes it official

[paperfootball]

I am in Atlanta. Can you recommend someone re: detailing/removing swirls on black M35. Appreciate it!

I found someone for you. Can you shoot me an email and I will give you his contact info.

[email protected]

[ArbitrageMan]

I recently bought a 2006 M45 sport, in black. I was very hesitant to buy a black car because every time I see one on the road, the first thing that stands out are the swirl marks. When I bought this one I made sure the paint was in excellent condition. However, in the sun I can see some light swirl marks on the quarter panels and the trunk.

My first question is, how do these swirl marks/scratches form? Are they from washing with a dirty cloth? Using a chamois? Using an orbital polisher? Automatic car washes?

Second of all, I dont mind fixing these myself (clay bar for the residue, meguiars scratch X, then wax), but its getting cold here and Im lazy, so Im cool with paying someone. In general, are professional detailers going to know how to remove these swirl marks? Am I taking too much of a chance by taking it to someone? Am I better off doing it myself (I have zero experience other than applying wax)? Thoughts?

And third, should these scratch removal products (Scratch X) be applied by hand, or by an orbital polisher?

Follow up post here:

zer...-pics

Joe thanks for your suggestion!!!!