supercharging a 240?

Post by **k6kicker** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

well if you replace your mechanical fan with an elextric one you could use that puley then couldnt you?:ylsuper

Post by **cory2081** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

Cool deal, Camel. I paid 8,000 for my 96, it's REAL nice, looks new. Nice cars, kokicker. One prob with your suggestion there.......the belt that runs the mechanical fan, it also turns the water pump.....the fan is bolted to the water pump

we can't do without a water pump, engine go boom boom. lol I think the belt that runs the alternator should work fine, just have to use a longer one to drive the blower and the alternator. I'll figure it out when I get time to take a good look. I'm gonna request a physical drawing of the C-1 blower so that I'll know its deminsions and all.

Post by **TachyonS14** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

DUDE! If you start making a stage one SC kit I am soooo there! Turbos are nice, but they are really a pain to keep up. I baby my car a lot, and If i had a turbo I would always be wondering when/If my motor could go. Besides, S/C seem to fit perfectly with the KA's design, and plus they are always running. I dunno, to me, a S/C seems perfect for adding a little more power, and ppl could still keep their bolt ons. It's a win win situation. I mean the SE-R V Spec guys are starting to S/C their motors... Maybe we should look at their power gains since they also run a beefy 4cyn.

Post by **cory2081** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

HP gains should be really close to that of turbo kits, if not the same. It would be alot easier to install and tune. Don't have to worry about boost creep. You would get all your power at lower RPM and get it faster. I installed a Pro Charger on my brother in law's '98 Mustang GT, that thing flies now. We all know what '98 Mustangs are like stock, not too impressive. The 99 and up GTs are ALOT faster. Well, this car runs 8.00 in 1/8 now using some DOT drag radials. It has some traction probs, could go 7.80 easy. He's already snapped an axle and killed a clutch :P It has monster low end and excellent top end to boot. We have a friend with a built GSR that has a big turbo, runs 8.00 in 1/8 too but cannot hold a candle to the Stang on top end!!

Post by **cwc2k1** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

Going sc'd sounds good, no turbo lag to deal with. Just tonight I wrote a paper for school about performance upgrades, and I was trying to think of the downsides of superchargers. I know there are some, because most ppl are pro turbo and hate sc's, but with no lag I'm open to the idea so if there's any bad parts to this I'd like to hear em!

Post by **jory** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

unstable hybrids will make the sc for about $4000 (usd)it'd be the first sc 240sx ever,but would be nice to seekind of hp gains it would produce.http://www.unstable-hybrids.comclick on FAQ'S and read under supercharger kits.

Post by **Camel** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

The only bad part is that it is like driving a second air conditioner compressor. But i makes up for it's own parasitic loss. I could care less really, as long as it is less maint than the whole turbo thing.

Post by **Camel** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

From USH: Basically, you don't want to raise the compression any over stock, since you'll be forcing more air in, the dynamic compression will be much higher. The header and ignition will be fine additions. The ECU will be reprogrammed for the Supercharger. That's basically it. The intake manifold will be changed when you add the SC kit, so any porting done to the one you have will be temporary.:END

Why would you need to reprogram the ecu? I would think that this would only be if you changed injectors/went to map metering/changed mafs/etc....

A basic kit running 5-7 psi wouldn't need that, however they are probably talking 15 psi with forged internals for 4k.

Post by **cory2081** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

who knows. I don't forsee needing any reprogramming for 6-7 PSI. Supercharging isn't rocket science when it's just for a street car. If ya REALLY want to fine tune it, then it can get hairy, but, just a basic supercharger set-up is real simple. I already knew unstable was wanting to work on one, but, they put it aside b/c of other projects.

Post by **Onizuka** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

J-Spec Tuner wrote:i saw a freaky silvia from japan with a supercharged CA18. But it also had a lepord skin yellow and red paint job, chrome 18s and hydrolics so......

i found a picture of it :pface

Post by **mewt240** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

where's the video of it hopping?

Post by **cosmo** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

OK now it seems lots of people want to do this, so somebody get crackin on a kit!

Post by **JDM** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

:withstup

Post by **Team503** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

According to unStable Hybrids, the project is shelved pending further interest.

You guys should put your money where your mouth is - if someone really believes there should be a kit, cut a deal with unStable for allowing them to use your car as a test bed (get some money off, or free parts, or something), and get one made.

This is a problem regularly for this industry - people clamor for a product or service, and when it finally does get here, nobody buys it. Makes manufacturers hesitant to listen to people.

Post by **Cyberkreig** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

well saying "i want a superchager" and spending 3k$ are two very veyr different things.

Post by **cory2081** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

I have the $$$ and I am working on it. I already e-mailed Pro Charger requesting some physical dimensions of the C-1 unit so that I can get all this on paper. I'll construct a bracket and make a "moch-up" for a feasibility test just to be sure this unit will fit where I want it to and that the orientation will be good. I wanna get this planned out ASAP, just waiting to see if Pro Charger will send me some info. I think if a kit becomes available, people will buy it.

Post by **JDM** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

Keep me updated on your progress Cory!

Post by **Nismo_Freak** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

I toyed with the idea of a S/C but quite frankly your better off with a turbocharger... not gonna make a war but I have my reasons for saying this.

Either way... if you want a s/c kit then it's something I might be interested in making/helping with.

- ECU retune is a must... you have to have the correct fuel enrichment curve and timing to match

- Larger injectors are a necessity

- If you use a roots blower then you'll need to incorporate this into the intake manifold.

- S/C pulley needs to be incorporated into the harmonic balancer

Pretty obvious stuff to me... however some people discussed it earlier.

Some common myths about S/Cs

1. They produce more boost at a lower RPM (false, however it is possible but 90% of turbo systems produce more boost earlier) 2. They produce alot of low end grunt (false, the are linear power adders)3. You can't intercool a roots blower (false, millar cycle engines have intercoolers with their blowers)

Good points being instant ON on shifts, less maintanance, no de-spool, no compromise on exhaust side engine flow, etc.

Post by **Camel** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

I would also like to keep myself in the loop on this one. What would the initial specs on the kit look like as you have it planned Cory? Some initial questions need to be answered, like:

Will the procharger fit and mount correctly to access the power of the belt system? (You are working on that one now.)

psi?est. hp2rw for each stage?intercooled optional or required?forged internals optional or required?charge pipes incl with intercooler option?bov or wastegate (internal/external)?pulley size = psi?pulley size for the stage 1 kit?

Here is my idea for the stages:

Stage 1Procharger SC-1charge tubesconnectors/fittings/boltsbracketpulley for 6 psiwastegate

Stage 2upgraded fuel pumpsmall intercoolercharge pipes for intercooled systembovpulley for 9 psi

Stage 3fmu / safcupgraded injectorsupgraded intercoolerforged internalspulley for 11-15 psi

Through these three stages it should produce a very reliable medium cost alternative to the turbo setups and have a very different effect on the dyno curves (hp/torque).

You guys tell me if I am nuts.

Also, has anyone taken a good look at their universal kit for sport compact? I wonder if that would work out of the box with a few mods.

Post by **Nismo_Freak** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

Camel, you don't need a wastegate for a S/C chief

Post by **Nismo_Freak** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

ANY FI requires upgrade injectors on the KA... and it is best to replace the fuel pump cause you don't want an old OEM pump trying to push its brains out.

Post by **Nismo_Freak** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

Here's how I see a basic S/C kit...

Stage I- Procharger SC-1 - 370cc Injectors - 255Lph Fuel Pump- Charge Pipes - Non-Intercooled 5-6.5 Psi- Tuned ECU

Stage II (addt. stuff to Stage I)- 2 core FMIC (Blitz, Spearco, whichever) - Intercooler Charge Piping- 9-10 psi - Re-Tuned ECU

Stage III - Forged Bottom End- 550cc Injectors - Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator- 15 psi - Re-Tuned ECU- Z32 MAF w/ Intake- Modded Charge Pip for Z32 MAF

Stage IV- Headwork- Re-Tuned ECU- 720cc Injectors- Larger Fuel Rail- 20+ psi- A trailer (cause your gonna haul alot of a$$)

Post by **Nismo_Freak** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

Pretty much the basics... your gonna need more than that though.

Post by **JDM** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

I like Nismo_Freaks breakdown. Seems pretty complete, besides the basic SC mount and pulley and such.

Post by **Nismo_Freak** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

Yeah ... there are alot of different things you'll need based on power. Things like a clutch, ignition upgrades (would be nice to have, not really necessary), header, exhaust... general engine breathing mods.

Post by **Nismo_Freak** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

For the ECU you could use a Greddy E-Manage... something to think about cause most shops could tune it for you!

Post by **Camel** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

Thanks for the info Freak. As to the wastegate thing, not really my forte, but I am trying to learn. Big bore 8's with tire shredding power are a whole lot simpler than this import stuff, but not nearly as much fun once you get the project done. I really don't like going fast in an straight line.

Post by **cory2081** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

Sounds pretty good, Nismo, the breakdown and all. Although, an FMU will work just fine with a larger pump and the stock injectors. Most stage 1 turbo kits come that way. I know, I know, I'm not a big fan of FMUs either, they just arent all that "tunable" but they work fine in a bare bones kit for a daily driver. The belt that turns the alternator should work fine, it's 4 ribs, it should have plenty of grip to run the supercharger at 6-7 PSI. Now, pushing like 20 PSI could require a cog setup. The intercooler isn't a must at only 7PSI, it would give you significant gains though. I would want to make it an option for it just to be a "hardware" kit, no fuel management, as most people have thier own prefernces and might not use what's in the kit anyway.....plus it would be cheaper. Just the hardware to mount the charger, the belt, piping, intercooler, bypass valve, all the nuts and bolts to put all that together. Ugh, this is beginning to be a very long discussion. lol

Post by **NateDogg** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

Quote »Some common myths about S/Cs

1. They produce more boost at a lower RPM (false, however it is possible but 90% of turbo systems produce more boost earlier) 2. They produce alot of low end grunt (false, the are linear power adders)3. You can't intercool a roots blower (false, millar cycle engines have intercoolers with their blowers)[/quote]

I appreciate your input Nismo but you have to be more specific about the blower characteristics. It sounds like you are denouncing all superchargers when you shouldn't be. There are 3 types out there...1) Roots (found on GM 3.8, Ford SC 3.8,etc)2) Centrifugal (turbo belt-driven)3) Twin-screw

I'll highlight some of the advantages/disadvantages of these three from my own research and experience.

1)Roots: Easily sourced, good low-end torque and horsepower but adiabatic efficiency is around 50% (creates a lot of heat) and would require an intercooler at anything over 7psi for our machines. Requires new intake manifold. Has self-contained oil supply so no oil lines to be drilled in the pan.

2)Centrifugal (Paxton, Vortech): Turbo on a pulley. ASE states they are not appropriate for a commercial vehicle engine because...These build boost only as rpm's rise. They are best used on cars with already a TON of low-end (V8) and only increase boost as rpm go up as to maintain traction for these drag strip monsters. However, they have high adiabatic efficiency (because they turbos are so huge and spin slower) and don't create a need for intercooler below ~9psi. Personally wouldn't waste my time with this unless you want low torque/power at low rpm for some reason. Seems kind of contradictory to the idea of supercharging a KA...Some of them even require an oil supply/return line to the oil pan.

3)Twin-screw: Full boost by 2000rpm. Same concept as roots (positive displacement)except has a high adiabatic efficiency and doesn't require intercooling below ~9psi. Incorporates the best aspects of turbocharging (top end horsepower) and the best aspects of roots supercharging (low-end boost) The best of the choices, if you are looking for driveability and tractable power from bottom to top of rev range. -Self-contained oil supply-*Also requires new intake manifold.

Do some research at http://www.kennebell.net. Click on 'Tech', then 'General Information 3rd paragraph' and then it will list a bunch of .pdf files for your viewing pleasure.

Keepin the dream alive...

Post by **Nismo_Freak** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 am

cory2081 wrote:Sounds pretty good, Nismo, the breakdown and all. Although, an FMU will work just fine with a larger pump and the stock injectors. Most stage 1 turbo kits come that way. I know, I know, I'm not a big fan of FMUs either, they just arent all that "tunable" but they work fine in a bare bones kit for a daily driver. The belt that turns the alternator should work fine, it's 4 ribs, it should have plenty of grip to run the supercharger at 6-7 PSI. Now, pushing like 20 PSI could require a cog setup. The intercooler isn't a must at only 7PSI, it would give you significant gains though. I would want to make it an option for it just to be a "hardware" kit, no fuel management, as most people have thier own prefernces and might not use what's in the kit anyway.....plus it would be cheaper. Just the hardware to mount the charger, the belt, piping, intercooler, bypass valve, all the nuts and bolts to put all that together. Ugh, this is beginning to be a very long discussion. lol

I NEVER will ever suggest anyone use a FMU... it's a horrible way of forcing injectors to work and will eventually just lead to failure IMO.

supercharging a 240?

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